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MS1

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  1. Excellent substantiation on the matter of his contractual obligation to CBS Records.

    Which would proclude him from receiving a writing credit from Atlantic for the length of the contract. Are you trying to claim it isn't germaine to the subject?

    This has either become a matter of semantics or your reading in to what I posted.

    I never said he made no contribution to the lyrics of Led Zeppelin I. I did say 'Thank You' was his first attempt as Led Zeppelin's lyricist. Meaning on his own. Jimmy does agree and that's good enough for me.

    Semantics it may be, but you said as A lyricist, not THE lyricist. If that's what you meant, why the hell did you get your knickers in a twist when I said it was highly dubious that it was his first lyrical contribution to the band?

    As far as stage ad libs not being writing Bong Man, would you say the same for the riffs Jimmy discovered ad libbing on stage? Whole Lotta Love was only one of those. There is more than one way to write, and on stage discoveries through improvisation definitely count.

  2. Quote from Wikipedia Robert Plant Entry:

    Plant and Page immediately hit it off with a shared musical passion and after Plant joined the band, they began their writing collaboration with reworkings of earlier blues songs, although Plant would receive no songwriting credits on the band's first album, allegedly because he was still under contract to CBS Records at the time.

    Article sitations:

    ^ Led Zeppelin In Their Own Words compiled by Paul Kendall (1981), London: Omnibus Press. ISBN 0-86001-932-2, p. 14.

    ^ Dave Lewis and Simon Pallett (1997) Led Zeppelin: The Concert File, London: Omnibus Press. ISBN 0-7119-5307-4, p. 10.

    ^ Hammer Of the Gods, by Stephen Davis ISBN 1-57297-306-4 (p.48-49)

    ^ Gilmore, Mikal (August 10, 2006). "The Long Shadow of Led Zeppelin". Rolling Stone (1006). Retrieved on 2007-12-09. 

    ^ The History of Rock 'n' Roll: The '70s: Have a Nice Decade

    ^ http://www.superseventies.com/ssrobertplant.html

    ^ "Stairway to Heaven, Paved with Gold: Led Zeppelin’s Snowdonia." The Independent, 6th April, 1991.

    Also sited on the Led Zeppelin Infrequently Murmured Trivia List

    " Robert Plant did not receive any songwriting credits on 'Led

    Zeppelin' as he was still under contract to CBS at the time."

  3. I'm not sure why I should, considering the disprespectful way you've treated me in this thread. But why not? You're on the losing end of this one.

    I'm well aware that a quote exists from Jimmy Page that 'Thank You' was the first song Robert wrote all the way through by himself. But that's not what you're trying to claim, you say that 'Thank You' was Robert's first attempt as a lyricist for Led Zeppelin, which would imply that Robert made no contribution to the lyrics of Led Zeppelin I.

    :rolleyes:

    For what it's worth, the story about Robert being under contract to CBS is all over the web, including on Robert's Wikipedia entry. Substantiating it in a book will have to happen when I'm home from work.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but "It feels good to have you back again

    And I know that one day baby, it's really gonna grow, yes it is.

    We gonna go walkin' through the park every day." sure sounds pretty Robert to me.

  4. I believe you may have misread something. 'Thank You' was Robert's first attempt as a

    lyricist for Led Zeppelin. If anything, his star only continued to rise from 1968 (when he

    and Bonzo were on salary!) until they disbanded in 1980.

    Plant received no songwriting credits on Led Zeppelin I because of contractual obligations to CBS, but to claim that he had no involvement in the lyrics prior to 'Thank You' is highly dubious at best.

    :rolleyes:

  5. What's to argue about?

    This:

    probably the biggest innovator since Hendrix.

    I'm sorry, I just don't agree. I was once a fan of the man, and now I'm not. Guitar playing should say something beyond 'look what I can do', and I don't really hear EVH doing that.

    And again, his "innovation" was an evolutionary dead end. No one taps anymore, no one uses the wang bar anymore.

    And can I just say . . . thank GOD. :rolleyes: Give me Derek Trucks seven days a week and twice on Sundays.

  6. Not really. Just because it isn't used anymore by today's crappy bands doesn't mean it wasn't an innovation. The steam engine was still an innovation even if we moved to other kinds of power.

    That's all well and good, but we aren't talking about whether or not EVH was innovative, but if he was more innovative than Page. And I still say BULLSHIT to that idea.

    Aw, c'mon the "Secrets" solo is really melodic. Most of them are, even if some of the same "tricks" are employed in each one. As I say, you gotta check out his earliest years.

    I was a Van Halen fan, my favorite album of theirs is Van Halen II. So I know the earlier years. But quoting "Secrets" at me doesn't change the fact that EVH works in an extremely limited palette, and Page works from one of the widest palettes of any rock musician EVER.

    It's all fashion. Bands like Dragonforce (not that I like them) and the G3 tours show Eddie's star shines on. Also, give me five Ratts over one White Stripes any day.

    God, we differ on that. If you said I could save either Jack White OR every hair metal guitarist on the planet from certain death . . . let's just say the bottom would fall out of the spandex and hairspray industries. Eddie's solos sound like Page's, but Jack's RIFFS sound like Page's- and in the end, that's better.

    It tells me that with one well placed gig in London, Page's one concert reunion upstaged EVH's whole reunion tour. No doubt about that one.

    How much or little of the credit for that do you give his guitar playing? What can I say. To me, Jimmy is Led Zeppelin, and EVH is Van Halen. (not that Plant and Roth aren't great, they are. But somebody's got to be the man, and in these cases IMHO the guitarist is the man.) Therefore, if you like LZ better than VH, you like Jimmy better than you like Eddie.

    By the way my post count might be low, but I've been on Sam's boards since the late `90's, and have been a mega Led Zeppelin fan for 20 years now. Or is it 21?

    Well, good. But if you think EVH is a better guitarist, all I can say is . . . ding dong, you're wrong!

  7. My favorite show, 9/14/71, has some of the best Plantations:

    "You should have been here last night, last night there were several boller hatted beatniks."

    "Here's something that was got together . . . I was gonna say the Scottish Highlands . . . I was gonna say the Welsh mountains . . . but really it was somewhere like Gorham Hotel on West 57th St. So here's to the days when everything was really far out, all the time. And on that theme, it's not a very good cup of tea you get here, is it? And on that theme, this is called Going to California, which is somewhere near hear. With the flowers in me hair."

    :hysterical:

    I also like when he takes the piss out of Keith Relf before they play For Your Love at the Fillmore West, January 69:

    "We're going to carry on with something Keith Relf had todo with. Do you remember him? Works for Hammersmith Council now."

    I guess some of those negative reviews were getting to Robert. :whistling:

  8. Okay, as long as someone got the Jimmy Page vs. Jimi Hendrix debate going, let's solve the Jimmy Page vs. Eddie Van Halen argument once and for all.

    Edward Lodewijk Van Halen: Definitely the better lead player. The more innovative guitarist, especially considering he came along just when everyone thought it had all been done. If you think tapping is all there was to him, you need to hear some of the bootlegs when Van Halen was playing in high school gyms and small bars. His playing was at its unbelievable peak then, when he was using just a Les Paul, Jr. -- no vibrato bar -- into a Marshall. Also, the Nashville 1978 makeup show with Black Sabbath: what an incredible ovation to an incredible solo!

    James Patrick Page: Despite Edward's superior dexterity and imagination around the guitar and guitar solo itself, there's no comparing the two as songwriters, however much I love "In a Simple Rhyme" or "Hang `em High." Jimmy's songs, like "Tangerine" or "What Is and What Should Never Be," resonate with me on a much deeper level than anything Ed has done. Also as a producer, who's done anything as good, much less better, than Led Zeppelin I? Possibly the best-produced album ever. (I don't discount JPJ had a LOT to do with all of this.)

    Let me hear Ed rip a big solo in his heyday, but if I'm going to listen to one guy's of albums all day, let it be those by Jimmy Page.

    Bullshit. Tapping and wang bars proved to be an evolutionary dead end in music, but the innovations of Page still make up the backbone of hard rock. So that refutes the innovation claim. EVH may have speed and cleanliness to his playing, but in terms of improvisational composition Page is better than EVH. Dexterity, you might have a point, but imagination around the guitar and the guitar solo itself? Bullshit. Once you've heard Eruption you've heard all of Eddie's tricks really. Compared to Page, EVH has a grey withered husk of an imagination.

    When Franz List and Chopin played together, List had more complex technique, but Chopin moved the audience to tears. Emotion and idiosyncracy count at least as much as speed, and they are why Page will ALWAYS trump EVH. Shred rock guitarists with no grounding in roots music went out with acid washed jeans; but Page never goes out.

    What's more, with a single well placed gig in London, Page's one concert reunion upstaged EVH's whole reunion tour. What does that tell you?

  9. This is a great point (to go with all your other great points).

    In the case of John Lennon, he was sued for using a line from a Chuck Berry song in The Beatles' Come Together. But, as with Led Zep, he was sued by the owner of the rights, Morris Levy, and not by Chuck Berry. From Wiki: "Lennon ultimately settled with Levy by agreeing to record three songs from Levy's publishing catalogue during the sessions for his LP Rock & Roll." Hopefully those royalties did end up with the original songwriters somewhere down the line, but I doubt it.

    Thanks, C 'n Q! (great handle, BTW. B) ) I do know that Willie Dixon successfully sued Arc Music. But I'm not sure how much sympathy he really deserves- in the Howling Wolf Bio Moaning At Midnight an eyewitness remembered Wolf performing Little Red Rooster in the 1930s. Fast forward thirty years and it's a Dixon song? Things that make you go hmmmmm.

    In any case, it's quite clear that "borrowing" is standard procedure in music in general and the Blues in particular. Anyone who says different has an axe to grind.

    :rolleyes:

  10. I'm a big fan of some of the artwork that accompanied the band's releases as well. Just as with Led Zeppelin, there is a strong visual component that accompanies the Allman Brothers Band's music. Some of the most interesting examples came from a pair of artists, J.K. Holmes and D. Powell, that called themselves "Wonder Graphics". They did the amazing inner cover for 'Eat a Peach':

    Eat-a-Peach-Inside-Cover102.jpg

    . . . as well as the original version of the band's trademark Mushroom logo.

    mushroom.jpg

    These two images will be familiar to many of you, but I found an image of a poster by Wonder Graphics that I've never seen anywhere else, check it out:

    NewImage.jpg

    I've been a fan of the inner cover of Eat a Peach for years (have a small framed copy hanging in my house) but it wasn't until hanging out in the art threads here that a certain poster got me more familiar with Hieronymous Bosch and I recognized his influence on the boys from Wonder Graphics. Idiosyncratic in the rock world, that's for sure. Good art to go with good music!

  11. Well if The Fillmore Concerts is "revisionism".........then welcome revisionism! Whenever I play this, I STILL can't get over the difference in fidelity compared to other CD versions. I realize Dowd splicing together different performances of Elizabeth Reed might be sacrilege.........but to me it just makes the tune even more immortal than it already was.

    Fillmore Concerts really is one of the greatest deluxe reissues ever released.

    Regards;

    Here's the thing . . . .I've done a lot of Live at the Fillmore/Fillmore Concerts comparison, including comparing the Liz Reeds listening for the edit. And I never could hear a difference in a lot of listening. Could it be that whoever interviewed Tom Dowd mistook a story about the original recording process with the modern remastering?

    I'm not saying it didn't happen, though. Anyone here heard the difference?

  12. I'm a Skynyrd fan as well so I'm well aware of his work with them (and the Allmans) from seeing his name in the album credits. Can't wait to see the movie.

    One of the things that blew my mind (and only one, mind you) was finding out that besides everything that he did in music, Dowd also worked on the Manhattan Project as a teenager. The word genius gets thrown around a lot in the arts, but when it comes to Tom Dowd it definitely applies.

    BTW- tried my little test on DTS vs. Fillmore Concerts again last night. The difference is most prominent on "Done Somebody Wrong". Duane's guitar has more sustain; and on the intro, where he's playing an the band plays two hits underneath him per bar, it's very apparent: on DTS you can hear bass and drums, On Fillmore Concerts you can hear the whole band!

    PS- nice work on the Duane's death rumor.

  13. Thanks for the further insight.

    Have you seen The Language of Music documentary about Dowd? I'd like to but it's not like they have it for rental at the local Blockbuster. I'd like to purchase it someday. I've heard it's very, very good.

    I have it on DVD and I highly recommend it! It includes interviews with Dickey and Gregg, among many others. I already knew a lot about Tom from reading about the Allmans and noticing his name on many of my favorite albums; I came away with an appreciation for the enormous impact that Dowd had on all recording of music. He was a genius.

  14. Thanks for the tip, I've often wondered what the difference was between this one and the Deluxe Edition other than a slightly different tracklist.

    Deluxe Edition does have one song Concerts doesn't- Midnight Rider. But in the Duane days, Midnight Rider was done uncharacteristically straight; the solos are almost identical to the studio version, it was about the only song they approached so conservatively.

    So IMHO, that one song isn't enough to put Deluxe in front of Concerts. I got the DTS copy when I got my BOSE home theater, since they're not made to be played with a regular CD player. Popped it in . . . and never played it again. Concerts was still the champ. I think a lot of people who are used to the way the original sounds are put off by the fuller, more three dimensional sound. Scott Freeman calls it "revisionist" in Midnight Riders: The Allman Brothers Story Whatever, dude. In Dowd we trust.

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