The big differences here is that all the bands mentioned, who replaced one or more members, the replacements were usually acceptable and may have even done some cool stuff. Still not like the "original", but Zep just couldn't do that, everyone was distinctive and great. And live they had that ESP thing happening a lot. In Ozzy's bands( after Sabbath) Randy Rhoads was basically the best song composer and soloist, Jake E Lee wasn't too bad. After that, Not too good. Zakk Wilde may be a very good soloist, but many of the riffs and songs weren't too original or creative. I also in particular think Jimmy wasn't even fit to continue on with the band. So not just Bonzo's death.

I don't understand much of the logic about a lot of this. Funny, not sure Houses would've sounded right in 75' or later, that song needs Robert's high range. OTHAFA, great choice, but to have the middle solo, 6-8 minutes ?? FYL sounded good, but Jimmy played it totally studio. The solo was cool, radical, but you don't go see Jimmy to see him playing a Zep tune straight up, you want some interesting twists. I just read that Robert was the total boss in 07', so there you are. Musicians are paid to act and think off their heads, for the delight /disgust of others.

Rather strange, I thought most Zep fans knew about a lot of the songwriting dodges. But it was mainly Plant, even IMTOD, for example, Page never sounded too close to the originals. HMMT, lyrics from (some) Albert King, but Page's guitar arrangements sound nothing like " How Many More Years", or whatever. Anyway just like there is a small dedicated fan base for Robert's solo work, somehow there is a real support among some for the C/P album. To each his own, but I was puzzled by that release. Yes Jimmy summons the guitar army back into the fold, but mainly to just fatten up the sound, nowhere is there some TYG type of song with 5 or 6 guitars all playing a different part. Well if you liked or loved the album the first time you heard it, great. I will say that the album was much more energetic than the Firm stuff. And I am a big fan of Madonna's first 10-15 years(oh the horror), so there goes my credibility.

Absolutely you are on the money. Bonzo IMO was not only the best rock drummer ever, but the best rock MUSICIAN ever. I have read reviews of Zep studio releases and occasionally there may have been some criticism of what the remaining members played on a certain song, but Bonzo, almost never. Even on ITTOD Bonzo kept expanding, Fool In The Rain, he totally nailed that Latin beat with it's subtleties. And Jimmy really relied upon Bonzo enormously, once Bonzo passed Jimmy had a very hard time getting the enormous sound Bonzo provided in Zep. Jimmy actually spoke of this, and the adjustment to any other drummer apparently was quite frustrating.

Boy, that is damn good( Southern Comfort). Hard to understand why it wasn't on the CD, I think it is pretty subtle and Coverdale restrains himself and shows that he can sing very effectively without some of his trying mannerisms. It's true that many Zep fans practically hated or dismissed the record. I myself say the Jap shows were damn good, whatever misgivings I had about the release, live Jimmy and the band were very powerful. Of course had the band played in the US, quickly the venues would fill up once the word of mouth about the blitzkrieg created by the band got out.

This t-shirt stuff is really funny, as I don't ever remember a C/P shirt, was this available much later ?? Also as far as I remember all the bootleg t-shirt activity, at least in NY, was pretty much gone by 2000 or so. Just mentioning that because at concerts from then on, most shirts(official) were 35$-40$ ++. I remember buying a Plant Principle of Moments 83' tour shirt for $6.00. Bootleg, and started to unravel after 10-12 washings.

Also if you look around the "rock world" there are certain bands who simply had members EXTREMELY at each others throats. The Police took 20 years to reunite, but musically, they were amazing...all members going off on some brilliant jams, no loss of ability. Floyd, the rift between Waters and Gilmour, even a quarter billion for a tour, Gilmour won't do. Robert could have done more shows, but my intuition tells me that the whole thing with having to deal with detuning on half of the songs, I'm not sure he could just laugh it off. Let's say Jimmy had some dexterity problems, and had to record full song guitar backing tracks if his fingers were off. As much as Jimmy would love to do a large US Zep tour, I really don't think Jimmy would be okay with that.

All that's possible, but especially with a Les Paul going straight into a mixing board with a tiny delay. Remember that boards back then were almost ? all tube, and obviously you have huge EQ shape possibility. Also perhaps not exactly the beginning, but I do hear some compression, as some of Page's licks, which would sound far more "peaking" if there weren't any compression. Any comments ?? As mentioned by some, there are so many things you can do in the studio which would almost be impossible live. Like even here and other songs, Page did use some odd EQ curves and notes and chords that would quickly bloom from softer to trebly very fast. I will just say that playing straight into a mixing board, there is no pedal for this, it's a very distinct sound.

Yeah, Cadillac is quite unique, never heard anything else like it. Rodgers was certainly capable of following tricky arrangements. But Jimmy had actually said in a nice way that he wanted Paul to push his stellar vocals beyond the very conventional boundaries he was used to. Jimmy was kind of warned by someone significant that Paul did have a difficult personality, and even in Zep Jimmy really couldn't force songs onto the band. In fact that's why later it was disclosed that some of the guitar arrangements on the first Firm album were Paul's; I must say now I understand some of the minimalist guitar riffs on that release, couldn't be Jimmy. The live stuff posted here is very good to excellent, unfortunately Jimmy is either shut down or not an effective soloist on about half of the live stuff I have.. He's not sloppy at all, It's just that he sounds like he's still rehabbing his guitar work, even in 86'. Although it's very possible the heavy alcohol intake at this stage affects his playing. One show at Nassau Coliseum, NY I had almost FRC and Jimmy was barely moving, eyes glazed over and solos just not going anywhere.THEN again I have some shows with brilliant B-Bender work, totally cranking.

Yeah, I didn't like the Firm's material much, but as mentioned he played NO Zep licks with them, and some shows Jimmy's B-Bender antics sounded like nothing else heard before. Yes Jimmy changed his style all thru Zep, but nothing as drastic a change as the total style change with the Firm. About choosing other band members who clearly have little Zep influence, hmmmmm......... Tony Franklin is very talented, but IMO he stuck up as many songs as he enhanced. Chris Squire would have been great, just listen to the XYZ version of Fortune Hunter. Chris Slade was good, but Jimmy( or Paul) had quite a few songs that had sparse guitar patterns or riffs. That would be fine with Bonzo, but live the Firm definetly sounded thin at times.

Those are great points, the pictures are being gone over almost obsessively. I still have a hard time believing that Bonzo suddenly decided to stop drinking or out of nowhere decided to lose weight. Even with some of the weaker 80' shows as evidence that Bonzo needed to get fit, Bonzo suddenly adopts monk-like discipline ?? possible but for me hard to swallow. That band picture of the rehearsal( I think it was in Page's photo book) Page looks a little more filled out. Whatever, although that semi-obscure shot of Jimmy without his shirt with the SS outfit on Caesar's Chariot, he would never print that. Not sure any amount of photo-shopping could "ease" that shot. And again the heavy privacy around Bonzo's death seemed to prevent any real light shed after the Euro 80' tour.

Yeah, very heavy stress and stomach ailments, painful way to lose weight. I always thought Jimmy could work himself into a nervous frenzy. Occult beliefs be damned, I'm sure starting with the 75' car crash and on, Jimmy couldn't ignore the black clouds circling. Who knows with Bonzo, maybe his wife made some ultimatum regarding the booze/ substances, and he really does look seriously worried . Agreed, though, what did the band sound like at that poorly ventilated rehearsal ? Was Page blazing around like the second night in Copenhagen? Like many others wonder how did they go from those shows to the IMO much weaker Knebworth shows ? Wasn't it somewhere written/claimed that Jimmy was going thru one of his withdrawal attempts at that time, but back on smack at Knebworth ?? Bonzo is ferocious as well, not bad at Knebworth but not the sledgehammer in Copenhagen.. Again the Zep secrecy, and mystery about almost everything.

Besides the exhaustion(substances + marathon shows ??) I'm almost positive Muni asks Jimmy if he was going to get some New York Pizza. Jimmy says yeah and laughs. To me this was like asking a viking to check out the vegan restaurant a few doors down. Anyway, has this interview been upgraded a bit, as Page speaks almost in a whisper at times, and does some mumbling as well ??

Well then the picture doesn't make sense, or he had some stomach ailment ?? I remember Jimmy in the picture rehearsing for Copenhagen or Knebworth. He is only wearing shorts, and although he is still too thin, he is not emaciated or look like an AIDS patient like most of 77'. These two examples are odd, but the Bonzo mystery makes no sense at all, maybe the picture was messed with. A ridiculous explanation, but what is the explanation ?

The picture of him thin is very interesting. Was Bonzo still messing with smack at that time ?? Books always mention his use, but vaguely unlike Page, etc. Wasn't he terribly nervous about the upcoming tour, that him setting foot on U.S. soil could have Bill Graham reopen his suit ?? I thought the Oakland thing was 100% settled, but I could have sworn I read somewhere that in fact it wasn't ??(civil case ?). Very interesting noone can say for certain perhaps after Europe 80' maybe he lost weight from not drinking, or, and I have had this happen too me, you can easily lose weight if you have an extended period of non stop worrying or heavy stress. This is like it's hard to sit still 4 hrs a day sleep stress. Total speculation. Also sometimes alcohol abuse for long periods can cause an inability to absorb nutrients and calories. Again, speculation. However, why didn't any band member after Bonzo's death comment he had lost weight and looked fit to tour ??

Well it's funny, half of The Floyd's openers are about Syd Barrett. A never ending source of unique angles about their founder. I think ALS is an amazing opener too, but like NFBM live is very close to the studio version, there are live versions of ALS which are much more intense than the studio take.

All this speculation is very interesting, and the links to American Mafia seem possible. But this was 35-40 yrs ago, people would still be scared , no one would reveal this stuff ?? You're talking regular shakedown, not 20% of each gig. Almost all huge takes or projected significant takes by the mafia are known within a decade at best, as many members of course rat out each other to avoid jail, etc. Although that 73' hotel theft still seems fishy. This may seem retarded but as powerful as the mafia was, Grant, Cole and the others in Zep's team looked and acted as if they would have no problem killing someone right on the spot.

Yeah, Jimmy certainly intended that slap-back delay and the long reverbs. I personally like the stuff on Presence that utilizes those "effects". I would say if you really want to be irritated, listen to the mid 60's and on almost hilariously overdone reverbs and delays on non top 40 material. Page is at least arguably using the effects artistically.

Strangely enough I think Presence is the go to album if even besides the interesting songwriting, the guitar architecture is astounding and you will find something new with each listen. I think the band never did HOFN live , along with other songs on Presence because besides the amazingly creative overdubs, Jimmy was boosting and cutting the EQ very sharply, something which would be extremely difficult or simply impossible live. A great example is on the 77' tour when Zep pretty much played ALS like the studio version( except Jimmy's solo) and IMO this approach without the overdubs sounded weak. Even with a few mistakes the song sounded much better when the band threw away the rule book and just made the song sound like some epic ancient Roman battle. Some will disagree. There was no Steve Vai or Yngwie as far as unique style goes in the 70's , Page was the one on Presence calling the shots. And even now, who has matched the sonic labyrinth of Presence ?? Great soloists have come, but meaningless without a matching compositional structure.

Well, supposedly Jimmy had the final mixdown authority on ITTOD, and when the band took the weekend breaks, Page would work on the tapes at his home studio. So maybe in fact he didn't take on the final mix, all this seems strange. Remember too some of JPJ's keyboard sounds, some cool, many not, were or sounded harsh and digital. Actually still can't believe someone didn't tell Jonesy that's enough, leave it at home. Funny how many new wave bands, even classic rock bands embraced those digital monstrosities( some sounds were cool, not all bad). But starting ? 10-15 yrs ago, there was a large move to ressurect the analog keys of the 50's, 60's, and 70's, with many of the troublesome quirks fixed(Mellotron, great example). Anyway Polar sudios was sterile, but I think anyplace the album was recorded not sure that would make the album much better. I mean the first Firm album, IMO the songwriting is mostly uninspiring regardless of mix or recording venue.

This may sound ridiculous but I'm sure that even a smacked out Jimmy when he heard "free studio time" he suddenly jumped out of his withdrawn shell to get all members aboard. Don't get me wrong, surely the studio had some reputation and was state of the art. Yet later most Zep members complained bitterly against the near arctic cold, and in that situation I imagine even drugs were not enough to justify the conditions. I do find it odd that a comment was made about Presence that Zep wanted to "sound like new bands". Each to his own but I have never ever heard even one song on Presence that sounded even remotely like anyone else. However, Presence was the first Zep album to end up in the cutout bins or discount section. So apparently it certainly was a misunderstood or harshtoned album.

First time I've heard someone challenge the mighty Zep in the early days, and there is some truth to it. Some fans don't know for example that until mid-69' or so , many shows Zep actually outsludged Black Sabbath for crashing and lumbering heaviness. Plant sounded great in one way, but the caveman holler often paid no heed to what was needed for a song. Still quite a spectacle, but agreed that a real consistency was not achieved until at least 71' and the Crown Jewels in 73'. About the drugs, in many books Keith has described his madcap adventures to much entertainment while high. Jimmy could do the same, I'm sure there are incredible stories, but then show how that addiction led to other addictions and eventual personal ruin. Of course Jimmy won't do that, but what a story to tell. Jimmy's drug/alcohol timeline is all mixed up, he never did smack for 7 yrs straight, he quit many times, and even on tour with the Firm(85') he was on smack partially . Many a time Page would have strange weight changes on tour, some Firm photos he's thin, others a bit of a belly.

Jason has progressed a lot, and 07' was pretty good. But even among other rock drumming greats, Jason is not really rated. I saw him on the 88' Outrider Page tour, and 50% was very good, the other 50% promising but lacking steadiness. Not much wrong about him using his name to tour, but getting some really inventive originals would give him more cred.

Yeah, the albums( Presence, ITTOD) surely weren't haphazardly mixed or produced. Presence lacks low end, but not in a extreme way, and some famous guitarists have commented on the somewhat harsh yet unique EQ settings/ curves in many of the songs. The solos in HOFNW and Achilles are very trebly and Achilles the solo has points where you can here one note that is sustained, and quickly the note goes from upper midrange to piercing treble. Brilliant. ITTOD has an almost Steely Dan hi-fi ness, and to this day I go back and forth thinking it's a good album or very good. i understand fans who just don't like this album, but Zep was moving forward and you can't accuse the band of just repeating the past. Although just like Page I was wondering where's the hard rock ?? As far as remasters, vinyl, blah, blah, yes a certain mix could soften up the harsh Presence, but Jimmy intended it that way. He's said so many times.

Well because of the incredible secrecy surrounding Page and Zep( Grant and Cole ,along with some hooked up lawyers) It's impossible to find out if Page was constantly found near death or brought to an emergency room frequently. Many will scoff at this , but Keith Richards, wasted as he was, not sure if he ever ended up in a ER. Yes he consumed massive quantities of everything, but from what I heard if he didn't know ironclad the drug source, he would try only a very small quantity before having it. I realize this sounds preposterous, but show me any gig or part of a show where Richards has broken fingers like Page 77'-80'. Now knocking down hotel doors, that certainly happened for Jimmy and Keith. I don't know this for sure, but the 7/17/77 opener TSRTS, Page actually plays very well, but he actually does physically appear like he hasn't totally woken up, or the coke is yet to hit, or massive doses of caffeine having a mild effect. Caffeine would only work for heavy drug sleep or mild overdose, not pulse growing slower or heart rate dramatically lower. I am only saying this because now there is a huge heroin problem and any unconsciousness, call an ambulance or get the person to a ER. Caffeine will do almost nothing for a serious overdose.