Cheers, that's the thread. Something would have turned up by now re Austin, woudn't it. You have to wonder what thought processes led Davis to write what he did in LZ-75. Wasn't there some confusion early on about how many Chicago dates there were in 75 too? Or did I dream that, lol. Also, what was the deal with the Helsinki gig in November? That can only have been planned as part of a wider European tour surely.

The mythical Austin show is interesting... I wonder where that one came from. I have it listed in an early 90s book by Dave Lewis, so the idea of an Austin gig has clearly been around for some time. Stephen Davis in LZ-75 waxes lyrical about it too, which gives pause for thought. I know nothing in that book is trustworthy, but it takes a particularly brazen type of charlatan to simply make something like that up, when it can apparently be so easily disproved. The fact that Davis even knew there might be a show in Austin is interesting, from a myth-chasing point of view. There's an old thread at RO that gives a satisfactory debunking to the Austin idea though. The only other date in 75, aside from Florida, that wasn't played was the first St Louis one in January, moved to Feb 16th due to Plant's illness.

Hi, thanks for the reply. Sorry for the essay, but I like to be thorough! I've never said Jimmy was lying about this or 73, but we're on the same page there. If you were to ask me about the 2007 incident, I might raise a more cynical eyebrow. I think Jan14th/15th works perfectly! You make a very good point about the bow solo, I can buy that. But again you are right that it's odd that nether D&C nor HMMT appear in Brussels, which is at the root of my confusion. Whichever it is, that would seem to be high on the list of songs to play at a warm up show. Maybe they didn't take all the lasers/lights for the warmups, or maybe they were on a curfew for Brussels. What are your thoughts on the likelihood of the Brussels tape being incomplete? It is very short. Re string bending, I'm not really disagreeing, but Jimmy is surely saying he couldn't bend strings with his ring finger. He bends plenty in those early shows. The D&C riff can easily be bent using the middle finger, in both the high and low register. I've just tried it again, and I actually prefer using my middle finger for that, lol. The faster heavy sections are more tricky, much as HMMT IMO is also hard on the ring finger because you can't avoid using it to hammer on for the main phrases. But that's OK, we know he played that one But only Jimmy knew what he could and couldn't do at that point, so I'm more than happy to agree with your D&C point. Oh for more info about Rotterdam, or to have been a fly on the wall at the 17th Jan soundcheck. The more I think about Jimmy's description of it as 'long and spirited', the more I think that suggests an air of panic, given his general turn of phrase. He came through with flying colours of course.

Thanks, I didn't know Page/Plant ever did it. I'll check it out!

Sure, Plant would have struggled to get the notes on the LP version, but a song like that gives you options. He could have lowered things a bit and growled his way through it like an old bluesman if need be, voice cracks don't matter so much, unlike Rock and Roll. That's why IMTOD works so great in 75 Just odd that they ignored such a great song so completely after opening an album with it... the only opening track that never got played live. I don't think Plant has ever done it live solo, so I guess you are right, there must be something he doesn't like about it. Page played it in 88 if I remember rightly.

Weird isn't it. They recorded it, gave it pride of place as the opener on the new album, and then never played it live. It's a easy song to play, would have sounded great live, and suited Plant's raspier voice. I suppose 1975 was the first 'greatest hits' tour really. They started off bold, but quickly reverted to doing more familiar material.

Agree with all that. They should have kept to the original set. I can see why they dropped WTLB, but HMMT and Wanton were definite keepers. Maybe Wanton was cut for vocal rather than guitar reasons, because they play it right up to the postponed St Louis gig and then never afterwards. And why oh why oh why didn't they use Custard Pie to open with!? Rock and Roll was a poor choice to open with in 75 because it needed Plant on decent form from minute one, which hardly ever happened even at the end of the tour. Ironically I think Jimmy's finger trouble made him a better player in Jan by making him more focussed and to the point, as you say. He may have been frustrated that he couldn't do a 40 minute D&C but I doubt there were many in the audience who would have agreed. Think of the extra songs they could have played if only they had cut D&C to 15 minutes. We've all had 75 SBD revolution overload, but something from January would be really good to have. 22nd in Chicago, the AUD isn't bad for that, but a SBD would really raise the profile of a much neglected and traduced part of Zep history. As to Rotterdam, well, seeing is believing isn't it! The reasonable assumption is that they played the same set as Brussels, but we don't know.

Persuasive but not quite conclusive for me. I’m only a ‘doubter’ with relation to the precise date. I’m open-minded but still incline to a post-Brussels date, although as I posted earlier, it’s very hard to make all the available evidence add up one way or the other. To resolve this, we need to discount some of the contradictory evidence/testimony we have; knowing which to discount is the tricky bit. tl/dr… I’d say the jury is still out on this one, would be nice to be able to resolve it one way or the other. It had to have happened so close to the start of the tour that there was no time to reschedule. I have some sympathy when people say you can’t play at all for weeks with a broken finger, but if it’s just the tip you’d get away with it, as opposed to damage further down, which would seriously restrict movement in the whole hand (yes, I do play guitar). An early date for the injury, in late 1974, doesn’t work because they surely would have scheduled the tour around that. Dates for the first leg of the tour weren’t announced until mid November 74, and tickets for the New York shows weren’t even on sale until 4th-6th January 75. Interesting how late everything happened, compared to these days. The second part of the tour wasn’t even announced until 22nd January, so it isn’t relevant here as it would have been arranged in full knowledge of Jimmy’s finger. The only tricky early venues to rearrange were probably the multiple dates in Chicago and MSG. We know they succesfully rearranged the St Louis gig for example. Why do I still not warm to the idea that the injury happened before the warmup shows, ie between 6th and 10th January? All the written testimony I’ve ever seen says the opposite, that it happened in the week after the warmups. Maybe oddly, I’m most convinced by the Richard Cole book, where he is unambiguous about this, saying it happened during the three days they spent in the UK after Brussels, ie 13th to 15th January. (page 247 of my UK paperback edition). Every other writer, reputable and otherwise, follows this chronology. There’s a contempory Rolling Stone piece (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-durable-led-zeppelin-19750313) which puts the injury ‘the week before’ the start of the US tour, which to my eye places it post-Brussels although I accept you could read it as being ambiguous. I confess I’ve never seen the Melody Maker article with the ‘two weeks before’ reference, which is very interesting. Is there a scan of the full thing anywhere? They flew to the US on 16th Jan, and did an immediate 'soundcheck' on 17th, which Jimmy describes in his photobook as ‘long and spirited’. Interesting phrase, given the context. I have an old Dave Lewis book (A Celebration, about 1992 I think) which says they used this soundcheck to work out how to play the set in the light of Jimmy’s injury. This implies a later date. If it happened, say, between the MSG ticket sales and Rotterdam/Brussels (6th- 10th January), then I don’t see why those two shows weren’t cancelled. If you were in agony with a very recently broken finger and seriously considering whether you could go ahead with a major US tour, would you then immediately fly to Rotterdam to do an inconsequential (no offence to Rotterdam) warm-up show? No, I wouldn’t either. Despite what some books might have us believe, Brussels is a good show, stage-rustiness aside. When I first listened to it I expected it to be awful, but was so pleasantly surprised I listened again, just to make sure I’d been paying attention. Yes it’s short (is the tape complete? Probably, yes), but they play well. Plant makes no mention of Jimmy’s finger when talking to the crowd, which he does do at every January gig in the US. Nor does he mention it in the BBC interview done at the time. Circumstantial I know, but if you listen to the Brussels tape for evidence of an injured or below-par Jimmy, I don’t think it’s there. We don’t know what they did or didn’t play in Rotterdam the night before. A recording of that, or even some decent pics or sensible evidence of the set list, would be hugely helpful. Same goes for the first US gig, actually. Would also be nice to know if there are any known rehearsal dates in early Jan 75, because Jimmy says somewhere (I can’t find the source immediately) that he did it on the way to rehearsals. I’ve always taken that with a pinch of salt, but would be an extra piece in the puzzle. Does any of this matter? Yes and no. Yes, because I think resolving it helps understand what the band were up to in early 75, specifically with regard to the setlist. While I fully accept the ‘pre Rotterdam’ date may turn out to be right, the available evidence also allows an alternative view, which I quite like; that they initially trialled a radically different set list with no D&C, as they wanted to drop it (like they would do in 77). They get to the US and realise that a longer more recognisable show is needed. D&C is the obvious candidate, but Jimmy’s finger won’t allow it, and/or they haven’t rehearsed it, so they do HMMT instead. Same with SIBLY; I don't think they ever intended that to be part of the set at all in 75. Whether 15 mins of HMMT is easier on the finger than 15 mins of D&C is a moot point; both contain elements that would be tricky without a functioning ring finger. I had a go, and wouldn’t fancy either. Maybe they just liked the idea of the change and then changed their minds back again after a couple of weeks. Maybe Jimmy spent Jan 75 working out how to do D&C in the comfort of his US hotel room, using HMMT to roadtest elements of it. Or maybe they had half an eye on filming some shows at some point in 75 and realised D&C needed to be in there. Who knows. Does any of this matter, no… aside from the mind-boggling minutiae of it all, which I’m sure will leave most readers going WTF, Jimmy played damned well in early 1975, whatever the state of his finger and however badly it hurt. A hugely professional and focussed set of performances in January 1975, masked by a lack of decent recordings.

He does talk to the audience in Brussels, and actually seems pretty pleased with how it went off, at the end. But you are right, it's no firm evidence of anything. Wiser heads than mine may be able to offer a view on the likelihood of Brussels being incomplete, but it would solve a lot of problems if it were!

Where did you read that? Not saying it's wrong, but it doesn't really tally with what Jimmy himself said about it at the time. He did have flu, or something like it. Check out 25th Jan, he barely makes it to the end. Sure, his voice wasn't at a peak anyway, but he's far stronger in Brussels or even Chicago than even a few days later. The flu kicks in once the tour has started (airplane air, or the cold weather, or both), which is why they keep on going for a few days before rescheduling the St Louis gig.

This one is maddeningly difficult to pin down, because if you take all the 'known facts' together, they don't make sense. If you ask why didn't they play D&C - surely a key song to play in a warm up gig - in Brussels if Jimmy hadn't hurt his finger then, it does make a lot of sense to say it must have happened a few weeks earlier. But there are a few nagging doubts about that. Firstly, it does go against the written testimony. Fair enough, might be a bit out. Also, Robert makes no mention of fingers at the Brussels gig, when he does mention it at ( I think) every gig in the US in January. Again, it's not conclusive. But what I can't get out of my head is, if the damage was done a month or so before the tour, why didn't they just reschedule the early dates? Wouldn't have been the first occasion, and they'd have had plenty of time. The reason given for going ahead as they did was lack of time to reschedule. The other thing that occurs is, is the Brussels tape complete? Could songs be missing? Airy and probably naughty speculation on my part, but that show does seem very short. Be nice to have Rotterdam too, to compare. An alternative view could be that they never intended to play D&C or SIBLY at the outset and later changed their minds re the former when they thought US audiences wanted a longer show. I like this because it allows the finger incident to move back post-Brussels. Then again I've never understood how it's easier on the finger to play 15 minutes of HMMT rather than D&C. But they didn't play HMMT at Brussels either as far as we know, so the confusion is complete on my part.

I think there's a lot of merit in both these points. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm sure Jimmy did hurt his finger. Quite when that happened is one of those annoying little Zep mysteries. But regardless of that, he played well right from the start of 1975... those January shows have a focus and brevity in the guitar playing which I actually prefer to the over-long (IMO) stuff later on. I'm not sure how far I'd defend the comparison, but there's a lot about Jan 75 Jimmy that reminds me of 69 Jimmy. I'm not sure about decline, but his playing by 75 had mutated quite a bit, and that shows up more as the tour goes on and the songs get longer. Often more complex, more jazzy and less reliant on the rock/blues style of the earlier years. The older style is still there when needed; OTHAFA for example is largely a rework of his Immigrant Song solo from 70-72, and it's invariably a joy to listen to in 75. But he was clearly a player trying to move on from where he had been in 73. That worked in 75, less so afterwards.

BLASPHEMER!! How DARE you deny the DIVINITY of the MILLARD and HIS MAGIC MIKE? BOW before HIS mighty CHAIR and TREMBLE at the LONG KNOWN FACTS! LEST you be CAST into the FIRE of ETERNAL TORMENT and 1977 NOISE SOLOS! OK, I'm sorry, I'm taking the piss at this point, but really there seems little else to do, short of shutting up. Which leads me to this... This is a public forum. For people to, you know, discuss things. I'll happily be proved 100% wrong about anything, as my posts in this thread and others prove. But I won't be told to shut up, and I won't be told what to think. And I can't help but note that in addition to being shit stirrers, people who dare ask questions are now Holocaust deniers it seems. What next, child rapists? Bon Jovi fans? Try developing a sense of perspective, huh. Ah look, life's too short. I piled in with what I thought was an inocuous observation/question about happenings a long time ago, in the hope of learning from people who know more than I do. But It seems this is an issue which inspires some sort of deep emotional attachment and a brick wall response. If I have somehow offended anyone by doing so, it was not my intention and I apologise for that. I won't return to this topic on here again. Not because I was told to shut up, but because I've made my observation which people can judge on its merits or otherwise, and there's no profit to anyone in going on about it. I'm off to listen to 06.21.1977, that very fine recording.

I make a couple of observations regarding my thoughts on a topic which has always intrigued me, and all you can do is be personally abusive. I'll leave it to others reading this to draw their own conclusions as to who is being reasoned and reasonable here.

Another touchy response. I take it you have no evidence either for these LONG KNOWN facts?

Wow, this really touches a nerve doesn't it? I'm not bashing anyone. Those tapes are amazing, and whoever recorded them did a 'bloody good job', as I posted earlier. I just find the whole story, as told in say the article link posted above, to be inconsistent and implausible. It looks suspiciously to me like a deliberately vague and unfalsifiable cover story for whoever was doing the taping. There need be no great consipiracy here, just a group of tapers in a fairly small area who didn't want their identities & activities discovered. Nothing surprising or unreasonable about that. OK, if people have private personal testimony etc etc, that's all well and good, but it doesn't begin to qualify as evidence. To address another of your points, yes, If any evidence were submitted, I would welcome it and happily believe it. As an 'outsider' interested in Zep from an historian's point of view, I think the whole thing looks like an urban myth. Religions have been founded on less!

OK, I believe you! From your postings here and elsewhere you are clearly immensely knowledgeable and it seems well-connected. This would put you in an excellent position to answer my earlier question, which I note you didn't answer. Was Millard his real surname?

Ah, but was Millard his real surname?

I'd have to agree. It's cleverly written in such as way as to imply more authority/sources than there actually are. There's a bit more detail about the wheelchair trick, which I personally don't find plausible at all. But even leaving that aside, nothing in that article is really substantiated by any evidence.

I accept I may be 100% wide of the mark, but I've long thought there was a lot about the Millard story that sounds like urban myth. OK, someone recorded all those gigs and did a bloody good job of it, but the details we 'know' look like mischief-making or laying of false trails. I've read enough Zep-related nonsense to like a bit of evidence before I believe anything.

Yup.. however you want to phrase it, they cut one of the best musical moments from the entire album, just to align the remastered audio with the video. The film NQ soundtrack was always different I think. D&C gets a similarly tin-eared treatment. I'm sure I'm not telling most people anything new here, but for the benefit of anyone who hasn't heard of it, the Garden Tapes site is an indispensible (and eye-opening) guide to how Zep's live material has been created: http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/tgt7.html You could probably argue that the use of two different nights disqualifies that version of NQ from being the best 'live' version, but even so, that guitar solo is largely unedited and is still one of Jimmy's finest moments. In 75 and later, he often had all the same phrases and passages in his head, but the pacing, order and dynamics of it all is far less assured.

I agree, it's got to be the one on TSRTS... the original LP version, not the one that got butchered on the remaster. The interplay between JP, JB and JPJ on the lead in to the solo is amazing, and the guitar solo itself is arguably Jimmy's best ever. Perfect pacing and phrasing throughout. Ealry 75 versions are still short, but the recordings aren't great. There are some great later versions in 77, but they do tend to go on too long for me, and in 77 we get the blues jam, which is often a train wreck. Lately I'm liking the version from 04.27.77, which has cuts, but still flows very well... the cuts may well improve it! 07.24.79 is great too, shorter again.

Out of interest, does anyone think there are any songs they played better on 23rd, rather than 24th?

Yeah, it does lack low end a bit, but what is there is very nice sounding. It seems quite quiet too, so playing it loud helps. As always!