This is false on 3 points: 1. they weren't "sued" in every case. In some cases, a settlement was reached without a lawsuit being filed. For example, Anne Bredon never sued. 2. since the terms of these settlements were rarely made public, you cannot state with certainty that they "lost" every case, nor can you state with certainty that they "paid up" in every case. 3. reaching a settlement is NOT the same as admitting their errors. Again, you haven't seen the details of the settlements so you cannot state that they admitted anything.

Northern Songs Ltd. is a company founded in 1963 by music publisher Dick James, Brian Epstein, and The Beatles Emphasis on "and The Beatles". The Beatles owned a 31.7% share in the company. Also, you are wrong about Harrisongs and Startling Music. Neither of those were set up by Epstein and James (Epstein had been dead for a year, in case you didn't know.) Sure. The Dave Clark Five, The Buckinghams, Roy Acuff, Webb Pierce, Dolly Parton, Buddy Holly, Ray Price, Mitch Murray, the Beach Boys (technically formed by their father on their behalf, since the boys were under 18), Mick Jagger & Keith Richards, plus the 3 I mentioned earlier and I've got one to spare. Seriously. Do some research once in a while.

Oh gee, if only you'd said that in the first place......

This copyright gives Jansch the rights to 100% of the royalties for his recording of the song -- but only for his recording. When Anne Briggs credits her version as "Trad., arr. Briggs" then she gets 100% for her version. Sandy Denny credits it as "Trad. arr. Denny" and she gets 100% of the royalties for her version (and so on and so on). That system has been in place for 50+ years now. If you look in the BMI and ASCAP archives, there are at least a dozen other entries for "Blackwaterside", none of which credit Jansch. Unfortunately for Jansch, the system does not care if Page's arrangement is 1% original or 100% original. Either way, he is entitled to 100% of the royalties for his version only.

For the record, Page and Plant have never lost a songwriting copyright lawsuit. At this point I must question if you have any interest in discussing factual matters or if you just want to twist words and spread myths.

Your statement shows a complete lack of understanding of how writing credits work. When you credit a song as "Trad", you are stating that you claim no writing credit. You are also stating that anyone -- ANYONE -- can legally record the EXACT SAME SONG without giving you any royalties. Anyone could record Jansch's version of "Blackwaterside" and claim the royalties for themselves. That's how the law works. If you disagree with that, then hate the game, not the player. First off, Jansch is no stranger to stealing writing credits. The early Pentangle albums contain several re-writes of blues songs that just happen to credit Jansch as co-writer. Second, it makes no difference to Jansch if Page "followed the proper process" or not. If Page had credited "Black Mountain Side" as "Trad" (which is what you're so upset about, I presume)......guess what? JANSCH STILL WOULD NOT HAVE RECEIVED ANY ROYALTIES FOR THE SONG!!! Did you not know that? The only difference between crediting the song to "Page" instead of "Trad" is that it prevents anyone from using the unique title "Black Mountain Side" without crediting Page. That's all. Page was legally entitled to 100% of the royalties either way. Oh, and ANYONE can record a cover of Zep's song and LEGALLY claim 100% of those royalties, too!! They just can't call it "Black Mountain Side" without crediting Page. And Jansch still receives 100% of the royalties for his recording of the song. He hasn't been deprived of one thin dime. Bottom line: Jansch credited his guitar part as Traditional. That made it fair game for anyone. (BTW, there have been dozens of covers of "Blackwaterside" over the past 40 years. Many of them copy Jansch's guitar part virtually note-for-note. NONE of them credit Jansch as writer or arranger. Gee, I wonder why you and Jansch aren't mad at them??) Absolute ignorance. Dozens of musicians had their own publishing companies. Ever heard of Northern Songs, Harrisongs, or Startling Music? Seriously, you should do a little more research next time.

Calling it "theft" is simply inaccurate from a legal standpoint. Since Jansch credited his version as "Trad.", there can be no theft by Jimmy or anyone else. Jansch put his music out there for anyone and everyone to use as they please. He gave it away. That's not theft. (Which brings up another point: since Jansch credited his version as "Trad.", how in the world was Jimmy supposed to know that Jansch's guitar parts were so unique in the first place? As far as Jimmy knew, he could have been copying guitar parts that were 200 years old.)

You must not have listened to Cameron's version, then. It's not a monotone. It has a melody which is identical to Jansch's version. Jansch's playing style may have been unique and original, but the melodies he played were either A) a DIRECT copy of Isla Cameron's melody, or B) completely derivative of Cameron's work (such as playing Cameron's melody in a descending order). Look, Jansch deserves all the credit in the world for his masterful work. However, that work is not worthy of a writing credit, nor is it worthy of any sort of arrangement credit for Jimmy Page's version. Jansch all-but admitted this himself when he chose not to give himself a songwriting credit. He knew deep down that his guitar accompaniment was not true "songwriting". That's not what I said. I merely refuted YOUR claim that it was a complete copy of Jansch's version of "Blackwaterside". I stand by my original statement; obviously, you don't stand by yours. Jansch is as big of a thief as Page is (on this song, at least -- although Jansch is no stranger to stealing writing credits. Just ask Muddy Waters.). The only reason he gets a pass is because he wasn't as successful with his thefts.

Where? Of course it does. You claim that Jansch's "arrangement of the melody" was unique, yet Cameron's version proves that Jansch's guitar part copies Cameron virtually note-for-note. All Jansch did was add a few derivative guitar fills to Cameron's melody. Yet you think that Jansch is somehow exempt from his own theft because he only stole 85% of the song instead of 95%. Here is "Black Mountain Side". Listen to 4:40-4:47 and 6:09-6:18 and tell me exactly where those parts appear on Jansch's version. Granted, it's only a few seconds of music. I am not pointing it out to prove that Jimmy isn't a thief; I am only pointing out to prove that cookieshoes is absolutely incorrect when he claims that Page copied Jansch "note for note" and that "Black Mountain Side" was a "complete copy" of "Blackwaterside". Jansch took Cameron's arrangement of a traditional song, added a few guitar fills, and slapped his own name on it. Page took Jansch's arrangement of a traditional song, added a few guitar fills, and slapped his own name on it. Yet somehow Page is the only bad guy here? Why, because Page stole a higher percentage of the song? Who made cookieshoes the arbiter of such things? Has Jansch even credited Cameron, ever? At least Page was kind enough to credit Jansch in interviews (which is more credit than Page was obligated to give, by the way). Maybe if Jansch had been more forthcoming about his sources, more people would have discovered Cameron's music (much in the way that people discovered Jansch's music thanks to Page) and Cameron might not have died as a virtually unknown singer.

Otto -- thank you for the very enlightening post. These types of contributions are much appreciated. However, I must disagree with one of your points: I don't think that the basic melody and lyrics were derived from Anne Briggs. I think Briggs almost definitely got them from Isla Cameron. Here is Isla Cameron's version of "Blackwaterside", which was recorded in 1959 and was definitely accessible to Briggs in 1965. As you can tell, the melody and lyrics are 99% identical to what Briggs and Jansch would later sing. Now, perhaps A.L. Lloyd taught Cameron's version to Briggs. I can't discount or disprove that possibility. And if that's the case, then I guess I should tip my hat to Ms. Briggs for being able to memorize and replicate the melody so precisely without ever hearing Cameron's recording. But after listening to Cameron's and Jansch's versions back-to-back......well, it certainly makes you think, doesn't it?? On the other hand, one thing I can say with confidence is that Briggs did NOT get the song from Mary Doran. Here is a clip of Doran's version. The lyrics are similar, but the melody is MILES APART from what Cameron, Jansch and Briggs all sang. Anyway, I guess what I am saying here is that Jansch's "story" isn't quite what we've been led to believe. All this time, we were supposed to believe that Jansch breathed new life into a forgotten traditional song by creating a new guitar part for it. But the truth is that Jansch's guitar part was based HEAVILY on what he heard from either Briggs or Cameron. And it's not that I'm saying that Jansch doesn't deserve acclaim for his work. He does. (More so than Jimmy, for sure.) But it's looking more and more like Jansch wasn't as original as previously believed.

Maybe, but not all of it is common knowledge. Some of this information could go a long way towards repairing Jimmy Page's image if it was in wider circulation. I'd still like to verify the release date for Isla Cameron's version of "Blackwaterside". This site says 1959, but this site says 1962. I wonder if one is the UK release date and the other is the US date? I would also like to know if there were any other recorded versions of the song prior to 1966. I've found 6 so far (Mary Doran, Paddy Doran, Winnie Ryan, Isla Cameron, Liam Clancy, Paddy Tunney) but I've heard rumors of others (Margaret Barry, Michael Cronin?). And is there any evidence that the song existed prior to 1952? I haven't seen anything.

This is also a contradictory claim from Briggs. In some interviews, she claims that she was NOT playing the "Bert Jansch guitar parts" in 1966. But in other interviews she implies that Page (and Jansch) owes royalties to her guitarist for creating those parts. The version she recorded in 1971 ( ) definitely has a different guitar part.

The Anne Briggs-Mary Doran connection comes from Bert Lloyd, who said "Anne's version is the one popularised from a BBC Archive recording of an Irish traveller, Mary Doran." Obviously, Bert is mistaken because Mary Doran's version has a different lyrics and a totally different melody. Perhaps Bert taught the song to Anne Briggs and mistakenly told her that he got it from Mary Doran? TeaBob -- can you verify that Isla Cameron's version is dated 1960? What book is it mentioned in? If that's the case, then it's virtually impossible that she could have learned the song from Briggs (since Briggs was 15 years old at the time, and she did not come onto the folk scene until 1962).

The difference is that Jake Holmes registered a copyright for his version of D&C in 1967, and there's no evidence of any earlier songs that could have influenced Holmes. But it will be up to a judge to determine if Holmes' copyright was violated by Led Zeppelin. As for Jansch, he has no copyright and no chance in court. Even if managed to win a lawsuit against Jimmy, he would probably just get sued by 4-5 other people who recorded versions of "Blackwaterside" before Jansch did.

To be fair, Jansch's "Blackwaterside" is the earliest recorded version to contain those guitar parts. (The Isla Cameron and Mary Doran versions did not have guitar parts, and Anne Briggs did not release her version until 1971.) However, it's pointless to criticize Jimmy for "stealing" Jansch's material, when Jansch listed it as Traditional in the first place. If Jansch thought that his guitar part was worthy of its own writing credits, then he should have copyrighted it in 1966. He didn't. And the reason why Jansch didn't copyright his guitar parts is because he knew deep down that he stole the melody from Isla Cameron. Sure, he may have added a few unique parts here and there, but it wasn't enough to deserve its own writing credit.

Al Stewart had seen both Jansch and Anne Briggs perform "Blackwaterside" at the coffee bars in early 1966, before either one of them had recorded the song. Then in June 1966 Stewart did a session with Page and taught the song to Page (according to Stewart). By the way, Jansch claims that he got the song from Briggs, who claims that she got the song from a traveling Irish folk singer named Mary Doran. However, this is almost definitely wrong. Jansch's version is actually a note-for-note copy of a 1962 version by Isla Cameron. I always thought it was ironic that the Bert Jansch fans have criticized Page for copying Jansch, yet no one ever criticizes Jansch for copying Isla Cameron.

Not his first one, I'm sure.

Well well well. Thanks to Blocoboy's latest discoveries, we now have proof that Robert played under the "Band Of Joy" name AFTER Obs-Tweedle was formed in March 1968. That likely means one of two things: 1. Robert did not join Obs-Tweedle in March 1968 (as some sources claim) or 2. Robert did join Obs-Tweedle in March, but they played several concerts as the "Band Of Joy". I guess we'll never know the answer unless we find overlapping dates for the 2 bands. Harry Barber (Band Of Joy roadie) claims that the BOJ played at Mothers on April 4, 1968 (which is the same date that Obs-Tweedle played the Woolpack Restaurant). If someone can find evidence that the BOJ played at Mothers on April 4th, then I think it would close the case.

I think he meant that he'd never played bass in a live band before. He had almost certainly played a bass at some point in his past, even if was just a one-time studio thing.

Excellent work as always, Blocoboy. According to Band Of Joy roadie Harry Barber, the 7/29 gig at Black Horse was the last show that Robert performed with the "original" Band Of Joy. The subsequent shows in August and September featured Robert with a different backing group. (In fact, some of the gigs credited to just "Band Of Joy" may not feature Robert at all.)

Wait a second. He could have purchased the master tapes for £3000, but instead he opted to pay £2600 just to copy them? (£2000 + 600 to rent the studio) That's nuts. And kind of sad.

Yep. If you scroll through the Hobbstweedle thread, there is a newspaper clipping from 1967 which tells the same story.

John Paul Jones was the arranger for "You Were On My Mind", "Today I Killed A Man", and "Reflections Of Your Face". I would imagine that he also played bass on them (he is the only person credited with playing bass on the entire album). The latter 2 songs were also recorded by P.J. Proby on his Three Week Hero album, which also features members of Zep. Steve Rowland produced both albums. As for Jimmy and Bonzo.....there are no guitar or drum parts on the entire album that sound like their playing styles. I guess it's possible that they played on the same 3 songs that Jones arranged, but if they did then it was in a very limited and subdued role.

Steve, Here's a mystery for you: is there any evidence that the 1968 Scandinavian tour was actually booked while The Yardbirds were still together? The reason I ask is because I recently came across one of the actual contracts for one of the concerts.....and it has a date of 8/15/68 printed on it. Of course, it's possible that the tour was booked in June (with the contracts signed in August), but it made me wonder if there was any proof either way. Were any of those concerts advertised prior to August 1968?