I don't see the cuts in the "Out Of The Way" source to be major enough to justify using the "Dixie" source for patching (besides there is too much disparity in the sound between the two). I mean, the recordings are alright, but not great. I've done a bit of patching on recordings before, and it is a pain in the ass. We're talking maybe ten seconds at most missing in the cuts. Now, if this newly discovered "8 track" source sounds superior to both and is more complete, that'd be a different story. I'm sure if a bootleg company would have reckoned it necessary they would have done so, but there is only one "bootleg" source for each Birmingham recording. Known generation copies circulate on the 'net for each source that are better than any of the pressed bootlegs. And I actually own "Dixie", impulse buy, really (I'd never heard that source before, it's hard to come by, and having heard it now I can see why the "Out Of The Way" recording is more common for this show)

I believe the exact comment is "This sucks!!!"...another classic from the April 28th show is, right before "Trampled Under Foot" when one guys says, "We love you Jimmy!" only to have his friend shoot back, "Hey Jimmy, learn how to play yer guitar!" LOL And let's not forget the infamous, "Enough with the guitar lesson" remark made during the Noise Solo on June 21st. Not necessarily instances of booing, but you can tell the impatience in the audience as some of those tedious solos was palpable. As I've said before, as jaw droppingly bad as the Tempe show is, you don't hear any booing on the audience tape. Nor do I know of any pissed off fans rushing the ticket booths demanding refunds they way they demanded tickets for any of those iffy shows. I'm sure thousands of fans being annoyed at ponying up the dough only to witness a mediocre performance and walking out would have made The Concert File book or something...

Both sources are pretty complete. The "Out Of The Way" source has a few little tape flip cuts here and there (IMTOD, NQ, BYAS, drum solo, ALS...I'm guessing 60 minute tapes were used) but nothing major. There are some great Plantations, especially his pre-TYG snarky comment about not hiring Billy Preston (such as The Stones and George Harrison did, only to have Billy more or less steal the show). The other source, the "Dixie" source has less cuts (merely one during the Noise Solo) but it is a bit more distant sounding (taped by the same guy who recorded the April 3 OKC show)...it does feature a longer intro where the MC is giving the audience a few safety/security tips. Of those two, despite the cuts, the "Out Of The Way" recording is superior. Either way, it's a good show, one of the better '77 shows IMO...if you've stumbled across a third source, at this late date, that's pretty fucking cool.

No, but it keeps things in the 'family', as it were and away from those pesky bootleggers. We've seen potential new source recordings blown before because of too much upfront talk.

It's all in the PM I sent ya, LZF...discussing it here would seriously derail this thread (even more than it already has been...) But in layman's terms, probably the finest example ever of how fucked up some Zeppelin collectors can be.

With the specific case I mentioned, mainly to add fuel to the fire of torturing/teasing other collectors...at least that's what I gleaned from the discussions when I read them, years after the fact. Freezer gave at least samples of his uncirculating '71 and '77 recordings to a couple of his online 'friends' mainly because they paid proper homage to him (i.e. kissed his ass enough when the game got rough back in '06 during the height of the "Freezer's Revenge" drama -the bad craziness that entailed when his '73 recording came out) See also my comments on feeling like the Grand High Poohbah, etc becasue you have something other people don't. I freely admit if I had been one of those people he gave those shows to, I would have circulated them in a New Orleans minute, damn the consequences (what, am I supposed to be afraid of online characters I've never met, nor ever will meet? What a fuckin' joke!), Why? Because my parents taught me to share.

No need to take offense, 3hrs...as I've said before yer one of the FEW people within the Zeppelin community I not only TRUST but RESPECT. You know the bullshit that goes down and has gone down in the past -not just at RO but all over when it comes to Zeppelin- as much as I do. And if you read the comments I've made in this discussion, well, you may not agree with all of 'em but you gotta admit I have a point or two. Hell, I'm a member over at the Hotel as well, but as I've said before when it comes to Zeppelin collectors my bullshit detector is always on high. And I freely admit that my motives are clear, and always have been- I want the uncirculating '77 shows, that's all I've ever really wanted, and once I've gotten what I've wanted (assuming I ever do, but I don't give a fuck if it takes twenty goddamn years) I'm fuckin' outta here. Life is too short and I am getting too old for this shit, but I ain't gonna give up until at the very least Indianapolis and Baton Rouge '77 (since we KNOW they exist) are part of my collection. Strider, I'm not a breath of fresh air, just a '77 tour fanatic/collector who knows all too well how the fuckin' game is played, and I openly object to some of the rules of the game, that's all.

Pathetic as it is, though, it happens all the time. I mean, what do they think the original filmer/taper/whatever would say? Unless the original guy was the one who told them to hoard it, as Freezer has been known to do with his audience recordings, but that's a whole other topic, right there...

Believe me, that is part of the reason why the "RO community" has a bit of a smelly reputation amongst Zeppelin collectors. True, to their credit they have brought a hell of a lot of goodies to the surface through resourcefulness and, ahem, ingenuity over the years but at the same they also have the highest ratio of 'hoarders' and 'elite collectors' with this "I/we have something you don't have" attitude. And that has nothing to do with a sense of entitlement or anything, but the fact that they insist on basically teasing other collectors about having some of this uncirculating stuff has always incensed me. I mean, what are their motives? Waiting to sell out to the highest bidder? A sense of superiority over other collectors? Y'know, like, WTF?! I've always said if you have something others don't have, don't tease people or lord it over them- don't fucking mention it all, and maybe then you won't have such a negative reputation. Again, it's fucking kids games...bloody well grow up already! It's only concert footage or recordings by a defunct rock and roll band- hoarding this stuff is not going to get you laid or promoted in yer job or a new car or anything, when it comes to REAL LIFE -i.e. outside of the Zeppelin community- nobody else gives a shit. If you think owning an uncirculating piece of film footage or audience recording suddenly makes you Grand High Poohbah Of All Creation, you obviously have some serious fucking mental issues that need to be addressed...

...and let's not forget: E. He's a shit disturber trying to wind us all up, and not for the first time. I know it seems like we're really beating up on this guy, but, goddammit, some of us take this shit rather seriously, and I admit it incenses me to no end -and always has- to see jokers like kdh playing these kinds of games. It's as bad as the motherfucker at RO who teased/taunted me about having the uncirculating Indianapolis '77 show with his smug fucking "I have something you don't...nah nah nah..." attitude (not that this character has exactly distinguished himself among the Zeppelin community...he was the one responsible for the infamous "Freezer's Revenge" debacle a few years back, so I don't know whether to take the dude at his word or not about having Indy '77) I always reckon, if you've got something wirthwhile to share, either put up or shut up...for Christ sakes, we're supposed to be grownups here, are we not? I'd like to think so, but sometimes I gotta wonder. I personally am a little old to be playing fuckin' kids' games like some of these so-called collectors seem to insist on, time after time. It's no wonder Zeppelin collectors seem to have such a bad reputation- in a lot of ways it's completely justified. And, not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back or anything, but I sorta pride myself on always having my Zeppelin Bullshit Detector (patent pending) on high when it comes to dealing with some of these idiots. Sometimes I feel like I'm the fucking Ralph Nader of Zeppelin collectors- not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing... No, thank you, ledzepfilm, for keeping at least one foot in reality throughout this kdh/Pontiac mess, and not getting hopelessly caught up in endless wishful thinking like some people appear to have been. In my not so humble opinion, I think it's high time we put this matter of supposed Pontiac 8mm footage to bed once and for all- it ain't happening, folks, sorry. There's more world news on page two...

I haven't watched the DVD in a while, but I'm almost sure it's the same footage as on the boots, just cleaned up considerably...like I said, I HOPE Page himself has access to a better copy than the collectors do!

Indeed...we'll ALL be laughing, but we may have to make sure our false teeth don't fall out when we do, because it might take that long...it's been at least six months already...I know life is what happens when yer busy making other plans, etc, but it takes THAT long to dig out a videocassette, digitally transfer and upload it? Ridiculous, IMO. If it was me who had the film, it'd be a top priority getting the tape sent out to someone who knows what to do with it. Believe what you like, but until I'm actually watching the clip on You Tube I still think we're being taken for a ride here. Seriously, read this thread, especially from about page three on, to see the type of bullshit rumours kdh has been known to spread: http://forums.ledzeppelin.com/index.php?/topic/10547-houston-52177/page__hl__pontiac

Ah...HERE'S the discussion where The Rover confirms there were no video cameras at the Houston '77 show...as an extra added bonus it is also the discussion where KDH makes his bullshit claims about the Pontiac video being 'destroyed'...read it and weep with laughter: http://forums.ledzeppelin.com/index.php?/topic/10547-houston-52177/page__hl__pontiac

Probably because he DOESN'T have it, guys...ol' KDH was probably as full of shit about having even a snippet of Pontiac '77 film as he was about his claims that Peter Grant personally destroyed the Pontiac pro-shot footage... Notice how he pretty much made himself scarce from this discussion as soon as he made his claims. "How do I transfer? How do I upload it...blah blah blah..." if there was any truth to the claims he would have found a way, believe me. And some of you guys were too busy stepping on one another's dicks to see who gets the credit for bringing it to the masses to even consider that we were being taken for a ride...fuck me. The more I think about it, maybe P.T. Barnum was right...y'know, suckers being born every minute and all that... FWIW I know '3hrs Of Lunacy' -who confirmed earlier in this discussion that some 20 mins or so of Pontiac audience shot footage exists- is one of the most trustworthy Zeppelin collectors I can think of...his claims hold a hell of a lot more water than any fuckin' wannabe 'elite collector'. Forgive the bump, but rereading this thread has been fucking hilarious...

Taro, you need to realize that Knebworth was filmed like the Earls Court '75 or Seattle '77 gigs- for the massive video screens used at the concerts...the shows were not filmed for mass consumption in theatres like TSRTS was. TSRTS was conceived and filmed as a Hollywood movie, with all the bells and post production whistles that entails- to the point where a fair bit of the film wasn't filmed at Madison Square Garden at all but rather 'recreated' on a soundstage at Shepperton Studios in England a year after the fact (as far as I know, the band essentially 'mimed' to the MSG performances). IMO you really can't compare the quality of the Knebworth videos to TSRTS- the comparison there is rather similar to yer previous question regarding the difference between a soundboard and multitrack recording. Think of Knebworth as the soundboard; TSRTS as the multitrack. Big, big difference there. Having said that, compare the quality of the Knebworth footage used on the official Led Zeppelin DVD to any of the myriad of 'bootlegs' of either the 4 Aug or 11 Aug full concerts. In essence, Jimmy Page used the lowest gen available for the DVD (probably from his own personal collection, no doubt); the original Knebworth video boots -like Seattle '77- indeed were pretty crappy quality, until very, shall we say, resourceful collectors sought out 'lower gen' copies of the videos and distributed them. Okay? Just the same, none of them match the quality of the TSRTS film because they were professionally filmed, but the only post production was done on the footage used for the official DVD in 2003. Every other version is essentially raw footage. I'm sure the raw footage of any of the MSG '73 stuff would look just as bad.

Aside from Seattle and Pontiac '77 -which we KNOW were filmed professionally (the cameramen on stage prove it)- there are photos from all the Landover shows as well as Houston. If they were professionally filmed, one, where are the cameramen/videoscreens in the available photos from those gigs and, more important...if pro shot footage existed of at least one of the Landover gigs as well as Houston, where the fuck is it? You tryin' to tell me that there is supposed to be professionally shot footage of at least three or four 1977 shows with only one -Seattle- ever emerging? Sorry, I don't and never have bought into that. I could believe Pontiac exists, but was either lost to the annals of rock history or some motherfucker (possibly more than one) out there is hoarding the goddamn film. Having said that, I'd be even more convinced of Pontiac's existence if we had at least a screenshot or something more substantial than just rumours and photos from the gig showing cameramen and video screens, y'dig? I mean, Jesus Christ, it took fucking years just for some of these elitist collectors even to admit/confirm the rumours that 'about twenty minutes' of audience shot 8mm footage existed of the Pontiac show. And when will us Great Unwashed see it, if ever, if it's not just a bunch of bullshit as well? Let's just hope the bloody Mayans were WRONG, let's put it that way, heh heh... Tom is right..."The Rover" was quite adamant in more than one Houston '77 discussion that there were neither video screens or cameramen at that show (so what if CSN and Aerosmith footage has emerged from the Summit in '77? Those bands were a little bit more open, shall we say, to exposure than Zeppelin.) I can't be arsed right now to dig up the discussion where "The Rover" stated all this, but do a search on "Houston '77" and they'll be there. And what about that waterhead -can't remember his name- who tried to claim Peter Grant personally destroyed the Pontiac '77 footage :lol: I seem to recall we sorta crucified the guy, justifiably so. I swear, the amount of outright bullshit and unsubstantiated rumours that surround what Zeppelin footage -video or audio that supposedly exists...I repeat for emphasis:

A MULTITRACK recording is done using something like a professional 16 track recorder...all the instruments and vocals are miked (separately from the venue P.A.) and recorded onto the separate tracks for proper mixing (i.e. the bass drum is one track, snare on another, overhead drum mikes are on a couple more, etc, with other instruments also recorded on their own tracks). This is how they recorded the music for The Song Remains The Same live album and film, for example. A SOUNDBOARD recording is made by hooking a mono (single track) or stereo (2 track) cassette or reel to reel recorder directly up to the soundboard (P.A. Mixer) at the venue during the concert. There is no real way to 'mix' these kinds of recordings. This is of course completely different to an AUDIENCE recording, which is more or less a guy at the concert recording right from his seat on any kind of cassette recorder, ranging from a dictaphone to professional reel to reel, literally holding microphones up in the air to record the sound (in the case of Led Zeppelin, as discreetly as possible to avoid being spotted by Richard Cole and his goons LOL). IMO if you just want to hear the musicians themselves in perfect clarity -sometimes too perfect; you hear all the mistakes in all their glory-with no audience interference soundboard tapes are the way to go. If you want more of a sense of the event itself, like I do, audience tapes are yer best bet. Hell, some audience recordings such as Mike Millard's L.A. 1975 or 1977 tapes sound as good as any official live album you'll ever hear. A BOOTLEG is any kind of recording not officially released by the band themselves, concerts or studio outtakes. In the case of concerts, bootlegs can be either soundboard or audience recordings. It's actually a term that has fallen out of vogue among collectors, especially in this day and age, because the implication with 'bootlegs' is that the recording has been sold (to be 'produced' by the bootleg company) and in turn you have to buy them, more often than not for ridiculously high prices. In 2012 there is no need to buy concert recordings when they are available online for free. Hopefully these definitions clarify things for ya...

Seattle may have been professionally FILMED, but the audio was not professionally recorded. The concerts used in the Led Zeppelin "DVD" were all professional, multitrack recordings- as in Eddie Kramer or some other recording engineer recorded them probably on a 'mobile' 8 or 16 track recorder, like any official live album. Even the circulating recordings of the Seattle '77 show that claim to be 'soundboard' (as in a stereo or mono cassette or reel to reel recorder hooked up to the soundboard at the venue) aren't really soundboard recordings- merely copies of the the audio from the umpteen million circulating Seattle '77 videos- which, again, vary in video and audio quality depending on the generation of video (when Seattle first started circulating it was a very high gen copy; over the years lower gen copies have made their way through the collectors/bootleggers circles). When compiling the DVD back in '03 Page was only looking to use the highest quality stuff. Seattle '77 doesn't qualify mainly for three reasons: 1. no high quality video existed at that time (and arguably still doesn't) 2. no multitrack recordings of the gig were made 3. Seattle was a very sloppy, mediocre performance for the most part, even by 1977 standards. Any of the other supposed pro shot 1977 videos (Pontiac/Detroit; Landover; Houston- only Pontiac was CONFIRMED to be pro-shot...no video cameras can be detected in any of the available photos of the Landover or Houston gigs) would be disqualified for the same reasons, only difference being any of those were better shows than Seattle, performance wise.

Where is the fucking video???!!!

I can't believe they finally had the cajones to bust out "The Second Arrangement" at a couple of the 'Rarities' shows...I'd be brazen to say -based on the handful of recordings I've heard- that the Shuffle Diplomacy tour this year was actually better than the 2009 Rent Party shows. The "Dawn Of The Dan" shows -where they mainly focus on the first three albums- are killer. Bear in mind Steely Dan is not only on the N.A.B. (Not Allowed Bands list) regarding torrents but they also have a rider in their contract that if people are caught filming or taping their concerts, the venue is subject to a $50,000 fine. Hence why recordings of the 2011 tour have been few and far between.

...I'm sure ol' Harry S's rationale was a great comfort to widow of the pilot of the Enola Gay, who ultimately topped himself because of the guilt he felt after seeing the destruction that first primitive A bomb caused. Look, I'm a Canadian- probably one of the last places in the Western world left pretty much untouched by terrorists (the Quebec separatists back in the seventies notwithstanding). For example, you mentioned New Zealand and Austrailia...remember the Bali bombings? Those attacks were directed at Aussie/NZ tourists. No, Al Qaeda didn't bomb Sydney or Christchurch, but they might as well have. I'm surprised Canada has not been hit yet. I'm betting if we'd sided with Bush and Blair over Iraq back in '03 we'd have been attacked. Just about everyone who sided with those two lunatics got bombed at one point or another (Bali, London, Madrid...my wife and I were in London on 7/7 -and 7/16 for that matter...not too fun an experience, lemme tell ya!) Don't get me wrong; I'm glad they got the bastard on Sunday. Bin Laden's demise was long overdue. The whole scenario played out like something from a Tom Clancy novel. I for one would not want to fuck with any nation's Special Forces, but especially the SEALS! Yet, right now, two things make me nervous as hell: 1. Some of the almost psychotic joy some folks in the US are having tapdancing on OBL's grave, as it were. Yes, the USA finally got it's closure and justice, but I remember the righteous indignation on 9/11 when CNN was showing footage of people in the Middle East celebrating the attacks. I am sure folks throughout the Middle East are feeling that same sort of indignation right now seeing footage of cheering Americans. Turnabout is fair play, I suppose... 2. This feeling of relief that "Now that we've got him, the War On Terror is over..." Not by a long shot, and I'd reckon that we are going to see an attack somewhere that'll make 9/11 seem like nothing. We've given Bin Laden just what he wanted: martyrdom. There will undoubtedly be many of his followers either ready to take his place or at the very least getting revenge. IMO the world did not become a safer place on May 1...it got a lot more fucking dangerous. And yeah, there is nothing like a good debate...at least we're keeping it civil! Hell, it's fucking easy to blather off on an internet forum...

I don't know how the hell I missed this thread...around our house the Dan gets played almost as much as Zeppelin! Particularly Gaucho, Katy Lied and my personal favourite, The Nightfly (Fagen's first solo album which is a must own for any Danfan!) Aja I can still appreciate when I'm in the mood for it, but some of those tunes got so damn overplayed, it's like Zeppelin's fourth album for me now. Seeing the "Classic Albums" making of Aja documentary was an eye opener, though. The part of the quote I bolded is absolutely true. I reckon out of all the bands I listen to on a regular basis, Zeppelin, The Beatles and Steely Dan are the only ones where every album is good and there are only a handful of weak tracks among them. The other groups who make up my top five, as it were -The Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd- have certainly released their fair share of stinkers. IMO Donald Fagen and Walter Becker are the American Lennon/McCartney. Absolute genius songwriters, and funny as hell to boot (if you have the right sense of humour, of course, and it happens that I do). Total maniac control freaks when it comes to recording and production, but hey, they're a couple of jazz crazed audiophiles. What do you expect? I was very sad to learn a couple of weeks back that Roger Nichols, the Dan's sound guy since 1971, lost his battle with pancreatic cancer. I have to wonder how Nichols' passing will have an affect on the 'band'...sad as it may seem, I can't see Becker and Fagen making another album now without Roger working the desk. But who knows... I would give my left nut (hell, even the right one; sorry, honey!) to see these guys live. Too bad they hardly ever play in Canada. Hopefully their upcoming tour isn't just a rehash of the '09 "Rent Party" shows...though the July 24/09 Boston gig where they busted out both Aja and The Royal Scam in their entirety is simply one of the greatest fucking concerts I have ever heard by anyone (oh, to have been there!)

Yeah, that's not a bad show at all. I enjoyed crankin' it up on the day. Missed the second night (Man that was a long day...since it stopped raining Thursday me and the crew said fuck it and finished the damn house in fourteen hours...plus breaks- I paint houses for a living) but it's raining again -ah, Spring in BC- soI'm listening to the Silverdome show at the moment (quietly it's still early), the recording is better than I remember it, for sure...the sound echoes all over. I know there are folks here who attended this concert...how was the sound? That place must have been huge...or must be; can't remember at the moment if it's still around or not. "Hold it steady...hold it cool and steady..." Plant seems to have to do a bit of crowd control after NFBM..."Stand still." Well, with 76,000+ people I'd imagine so! IMTOD is not bad thus far. I'm not hearing any obvious whoopsies, and overall I reckon Zeppelin pretty much rose to the occasion on the night. If a fucking video -or even part of a video exists for the Pontiac show- it would be nice to see. The pro shot would kick Seattle's ass all over the place. Hard to believe this was 34 years ago. I mean, I sort of remember April 30, 1977...woulda been in grade three

Most times I skip the Noise solos these days...I mean, i don't listen to Arc by Neil Young on a regular basis, either! I will probably get a chance to listen to the second Cleveland show tomorrow and report back.

As per the norm round the house this time of year, I'm making my way through the '77 shows- I try to listen to each one on the day when I can...sometimes I gotta dig around for them. I've done it completely twice, I think...most days I just don't have the time to sit back and absorb. I listened to Atlanta on Saturday, though, cranked on the stereo while the missus and I were doing some Spring cleaning. Shitty recording ("Why's it sound so distorted?" my wife asked me:D ) but it's actually a really good show, especially for early '77. Page played within his limitations, so it made the long show interesting. Try give it a listen, if you've got it, though it really calls out for 'bootleg ears'. It could possibly be the best of the first leg shows, along with -IMO- April 28th and April 10th. Hell, legend has it even Page and Peter Grant reckoned either St Paul or St Louis -I can't remember which at the moment- was best of the tour, according to their laser tech. So I'm listening to Destroyer today...first time in ages it seems like. On IMTOD right now...sorta iffy in spots on Jimmy's part, but I always dug Plant's scream at 6.05. No need to comment on the show, of course...I'd say it's been done. I always liked TYG from this night in particular. WHOOOOPS...love Page's little boo boo on the slide at 8.48 (IMTOD) Though I do agree with some of the above comments about Bonzo sounding like tin cans and Page's "Fisher Price" guitar sound (that's not the first time I've heard that, even in relation to Jimmy Page) on the 1977 soundboards. Even if there were a plethora of them, like there is for '75, say, I'd still favour the audience tapes. ('Kay...I'm gonna skin up now and sit back and listen to "No Quarter", damned cut in the tape and all... )