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Random Thoughts v.3

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3 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

a system which is not based on patient outcome but on profit

This is the single biggest hurdle to reforming not just the health system, but any fundamental reforms. There are many other very significant hurdles, but the profit motive and specifically the capacity for those that stand to lose to lobby against real reform is forever going to hold the USA back from - and different to - the rest of the advanced world. And different for the most part in a corrosive way. Short of a very popular unifying centrist candidate sweeping into power with good majorities in both houses (which I can't see ever happening) - the only way out for the US is through a really horrible social upheaval - which you seem to be moving toward. The two "camps" seem happy to split and feed the bullshit "left vs. right" monster. I really think that unless you guys start moving back to the middle somewhat - just somewhat - the fractures will deepen to a point where an earthquake becomes inevitable.

Capitalism unchecked (Money is the God) has it's upsides for technological and living standard advancements, but only for the top. Unfettered it is just as dangerous as any of the 'isms.

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4 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Anything is better than what we currently have, a system which bankrupts millions of American annually, a system which is not based on patient outcome but on profit, a system which has left many elderly people broke and living in squalor after saving all their life and doing "everything right."

Filing this under "if you repeat a lie long enough some people will believe it". Can't wait to see the caliber of doctors and physicians that a non-profit based health care system retains and attracts. 

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16 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Filing this under "if you repeat a lie long enough some people will believe it". Can't wait to see the caliber of doctors and physicians that a non-profit based health care system retains and attracts. 

You need only ask the rest of the 1st world to find your answer.

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10 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

You need only ask the rest of the 1st world to find your answer.

You need only remember their waiting lists.

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On 7/19/2019 at 1:16 AM, SteveAJones said:

 Can't wait to see the caliber of doctors and physicians that a non-profit based health care system retains and attracts. 

image.png.52309def2efb8d921eb1fbfcce1a0e65.png

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15 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

You need only remember their waiting lists.

Just stop Steve with this BS. My family through marriage is Canadian and they LOVE their healthcare system. In fact, every Canadian I know keeps dual citizenship just in case they need that healthcare. I have never known a Canadian to renounce their citizenship in fact. This is the same for all countries with such healthcare systems in fact. Though I am glad you mentioned waiting lists because that is a real problem in the US. If I call my doctor to be seen for anything it is a minimum three to four week wait, or as they say, "go to urgent care!" The only immediate avenue for healthcare in the US is either the emergency room or urgent care and unless you have been shot or are bleeding out, strap in and enjoy your 6+ hour wait to be seen. Though in those other countries, I never had a problem getting seen. Go figure.

US Healthcare system is the single most expensive system in the world with one of the worse results rates.

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Posted (edited)

Waiting lists here can be long for non-emergency procedures - which includes important stuff that people need to improve significant conditions and quality of life. But overall from my use of it the system is rather good. I can see a doctor at my local medical centre at will. If my doctor is busy, they usually manage to fit me in to see him or someone else working there should I need medication or certificate for time off work. No problem. I've had some thing done (day procedures) as well as a few nights stay - all no problem from a quality of care and cost perspective. It's not all free - but the grumbling complaints about the $$$ does NOT mean the system is crap. My father has significant health challenges and they are attended to. My parents are by no means well off financially.

It is by no means perfect, and with our ageing population the system is coming up against real challenges that require real reforms (private cover vs. public cover needs fixing) - but it works.

I have yet to hear anyone with any amount of knowledge about approaches to medical care in advanced western countries and the pros and cons of all the different systems say anything good about the US approach/system. As peace frog says - I believe it is the most expensive system for the worst results. Meanwhile in the US - big pharma continues to addict the population and offer even more pills to help with that addiction in a way that is unquestionably immoral and legally problematic at best. It's not doctors/physicians that are the problem with cost. It is the multi billion dollar pharma companies with an unrestricted, unregulated playing field to reap whatever the hell they want with impunity (so far).

Again - I've yet to hear anyone say how the US system is just so damn good.

Like most things in America that could do with some level of reform - too many vested interests with a LOT to lose immediately poison any chance of constructively looking at reforms rendering any real action impossible. And that poison is the money they stream into Washington to paralyse any chance of reform/change. Money willingly accepted by the greedy fuckers who are there to serve their own wealth acquisition - NOT the people. The money in politics problem there might just be the worlds worst in how entrenched it is even with an independent judiciary and well structured separation of powers/branches of Government.

The perpetuation of the "government tyranny" myth and how it is to be feared above all else is such a stupid distraction from actually working for a better America.

....but I digress.

Edited by rm2551

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19 hours ago, redrum said:

image.png.52309def2efb8d921eb1fbfcce1a0e65.png

Perfect!

11 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Just stop Steve with this BS. My family through marriage is Canadian and they LOVE their healthcare system. In fact, every Canadian I know keeps dual citizenship just in case they need that healthcare. I have never known a Canadian to renounce their citizenship in fact. This is the same for all countries with such healthcare systems in fact. Though I am glad you mentioned waiting lists because that is a real problem in the US. If I call my doctor to be seen for anything it is a minimum three to four week wait, or as they say, "go to urgent care!" The only immediate avenue for healthcare in the US is either the emergency room or urgent care and unless you have been shot or are bleeding out, strap in and enjoy your 6+ hour wait to be seen. Though in those other countries, I never had a problem getting seen. Go figure.

US Healthcare system is the single most expensive system in the world with one of the worse results rates.

Horse shit! Just stop with the apples to oranges comparisons. Canada has a population of about 37.5 million, the United States about 325 million. Additionally, Canada is overwhelmingly white, which means their system doesn't have to absorb Black American's 82% out of wedlock birthrate, among many other negative societal health issues.

A three to four week wait for a non-emergency condition is nothing! You must not have heard about the NHS wait lists in England.  

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7 hours ago, rm2551 said:

The perpetuation of the "government tyranny" myth and how it is to be feared above all else is such a stupid distraction from actually working for a better America.

It's not a myth and when I hear anyone start talking about "working for a better America" I immediately cock my pistol with one hand and hang onto my wallet with the other.

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1 hour ago, SteveAJones said:

Perfect!

Horse shit! Just stop with the apples to oranges comparisons. Canada has a population of about 37.5 million, the United States about 325 million. Additionally, Canada is overwhelmingly white, which means their system doesn't have to absorb Black American's 82% out of wedlock birthrate, among many other negative societal health issues.

A three to four week wait for a non-emergency condition is nothing! You must not have heard about the NHS wait lists in England.  

Actually Steve I lived in the UK for a time and used their NHS and NEVER had a problem, in fact wait times in the UK were shorter than in the US plus they have much, MUCH better outcomes. The US system has one of the WORSE patient outcomes, not just in 1st world nations but even worse than many 2nd world nations.

I have an idea Steve, why don't you talk to people who live under these systems and, oh that's right, you will claim lesser populations, homogenized populations and other nonsensical balderdash. That being said, as a resident of Japan I am sure when you get ill you hop on the first plane for the states to indulge in our amazing healthcare over that crappy Japanese system. Oh yes Steve, I am sure you do exactly that.

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1 hour ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Actually Steve I lived in the UK for a time and used their NHS and NEVER had a problem, in fact wait times in the UK were shorter than in the US plus they have much, MUCH better outcomes. The US system has one of the WORSE patient outcomes, not just in 1st world nations but even worse than many 2nd world nations.

I have an idea Steve, why don't you talk to people who live under these systems and, oh that's right, you will claim lesser populations, homogenized populations and other nonsensical balderdash. That being said, as a resident of Japan I am sure when you get ill you hop on the first plane for the states to indulge in our amazing healthcare over that crappy Japanese system. Oh yes Steve, I am sure you do exactly that.

Small world! I lived in the UK for several years, and let me tell you things have changed. Specifically, in February 2018 the NHS imposed a 90 day minimum waiting period for non-emergency care on account of budget cut backs. Did you get that? 90 DAYS. 

You should never underestimate the societal advantages that come with having a smaller, homogenous population AND secure borders.  

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4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

It's not a myth and when I hear anyone start talking about "working for a better America" I immediately cock my pistol with one hand and hang onto my wallet with the other.

:lol: Washington state did a petition drive to get rid of a huge tax that the bastards and bitches of Olympia just layed on us. I believe that someday there really will be an armed revolt and it won't involve just tossing tea into the bay.

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7 minutes ago, redrum said:

:lol: Washington state did a petition drive to get rid of a huge tax that the bastards and bitches of Olympia just layed on us. I believe that someday there really will be an armed revolt and it won't involve just tossing tea into the bay.

I completely agree with you. $22 TRILLON deficit and they keep on overtaxing us while spending like drunken sailors. The truth is there are only two things that will stop the insanity: a nationwide taxpayer's revolt or nationwide taxpayer's armed revolt. I'm hoping a reparations bill does get enacted into law, because if that doesn't get a nationwide taxpayer's revolt started nothing will.

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6 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Perfect!

Horse shit! Just stop with the apples to oranges comparisons. Canada has a population of about 37.5 million, the United States about 325 million. Additionally, Canada is overwhelmingly white, which means their system doesn't have to absorb Black American's 82% out of wedlock birthrate, among many other negative societal health issues.

A three to four week wait for a non-emergency condition is nothing! You must not have heard about the NHS wait lists in England.  

^^^THIS!

Bernie Sanders is always comparing the healthcare systems in places like Norway to ours here in America and claiming we should have could have the same result. Difference of course is that places like Norway, Switzerland, Japan... and yes, even much of Canada doesn't have millions and millions of people sitting around, not working, into crime, and having a bunch of children they can't care for.

All that "medicare for all" would do in America is make all healthcare lousy for everyone; why penalize people who already have their shit together in favor of people who are the cause of their own problems.... including illegal aliens?  How unfair to all of the Americans who worked hard their whole live, retired, are now eligible for medicare---and they now have to wait inline for care with illegal aliens!

 

 

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7 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

It's not a myth and when I hear anyone start talking about "working for a better America" I immediately cock my pistol with one hand and hang onto my wallet with the other.

Wow - so no reform is EVER to be entertained. America must be perfect! Anyone wanting to advance or change the US to make it better for all is to be feared and confronted with firearms. Some regulation of Wall Street and giant banks, the health system, taxation, college education and it's funding/availability, the investing in the scientific community and R&D, the wealth gap and the issues with having all of a nations wealth flow into a few hands, crime and social problems and changes needed - all not necessary. The very idea to be met with armed resistance. Or is it just the words I chose? Too slogan like (which is fair enough). I really don't understand that extreme position against simple reforms that are desperately needed there. The US system is BROKEN. Unless you are of the view that lobby groups with billions to give to Washington for vested interests is a great way to get good government for the people.

You seem to be paralysed by the fear of everything. Especially change - no matter what that change means. Meanwhile, while the US buckles under it's own weight of inefficiency, corruption, and partisan tribal crap, China rises and spreads it tentacles out into the developing world.

You fear what could be.

I hope for what could be.

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43 minutes ago, rm2551 said:

Wow - so no reform is EVER to be entertained. America must be perfect! Anyone wanting to advance or change the US to make it better for all is to be feared and confronted with firearms. Some regulation of Wall Street and giant banks, the health system, taxation, college education and it's funding/availability, the investing in the scientific community and R&D, the wealth gap and the issues with having all of a nations wealth flow into a few hands, crime and social problems and changes needed - all not necessary. The very idea to be met with armed resistance. Or is it just the words I chose? Too slogan like (which is fair enough). I really don't understand that extreme position against simple reforms that are desperately needed there. The US system is BROKEN. Unless you are of the view that lobby groups with billions to give to Washington for vested interests is a great way to get good government for the people.

You seem to be paralysed by the fear of everything. Especially change - no matter what that change means. Meanwhile, while the US buckles under it's own weight of inefficiency, corruption, and partisan tribal crap, China rises and spreads it tentacles out into the developing world.

You fear what could be.

I hope for what could be.

…"to make it better for all"... THAT'S where you're wrong! We have tens of millions of people with no fucking skin in the game, never worked an honest day in their life, or better yet are there illegally and the socialist utopian liberals like yourself start pontificating about how the system is broken and must be made better "for all". 

Paralyzed by the fear of everything? I don't fear anything. I'm all set. I saw the writing on the wall when some shit for brains community organizer who had been a Senator for 15 minutes got elected in 2008. I cashed out and got as fucking far away from that nearly ten year dumpster fire as I could get. 

Don't get me started on China. They ain't half as strong as you seem to think they are, and the Trump tariffs are crushing their economy. 

I see things the way things are, you cling to the way things ought to be. 

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8 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

socialist utopian liberals like yourself

Nice, but Incorrect. Wanting to see improvement in a society via reforms to a political system in desperate need of it I would think would be a common ground starting point to start a conversation regardless of whether you think Trump or Obama is great or horrible - or anywhere in the middle. The laughable label you subscribe to me may be of convenience (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) but Steve, the political system in the US IS broken. If you do not agree with that - ok - we will have to agree we just don't agree on a basic position. No problem.

8 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

We have tens of millions of people with no fucking skin in the game, never worked an honest day in their life, or better yet are there illegally

Is the US different to any other society in the ratio (per capita I mean - I realise the population differences) of those who are simply lazy fucks or drug/alcohol afflicted wastes of space? If so - why is that? Could it be America hasn't yet figured out a better way to deal with those "tens of millions" where other societies are doing better? If not - then maybe it is just a numbers game and the US being so much bigger means the same percentage burden is just much larger. I don't know - but I wonder where poverty and homelessness in the US is compared to other advanced nations. I'll have to have a look...

The Illegals question is a disaster for "the left". They fail to even acknowledge a problem and scream racist at anyone who dares speak about it from a border security stand point. They deserve a LOT of derision as they seem unable to even entertain a reasonable position. Like everything though - that is an over simplification (for my convenience). A lot of illegals contribute - pay taxes, have jobs, etc. The so called "left" and "right" don't hold answers because reasonable middle ground positions are not possible anymore. Complicated problems need well though out solutions (not necessarily complicated) that respect MIDDLE positions either conservative or progressive. MIDDLE. Something that most would be happy with (most meaning most people are fairly reasonable whatever their view save for those loud voices that falsely indicate a broader position than is reality.) In terms of immigration reform i would think reasonable is securing borders and controlling WHO immigrates. You could then acknowledge the illegals that are working jobs farmers and other industries can't fill with locals and the fact they are a large contributor to the economy and possibly provide a path to citizenship for those that are actually of real value??? But useless until/unless immigration is under control. John Howard back in the day got hammered for tough immigration policies. He famously angrily said at one speech "WE will determine who comes to this country and the manner in which they come!" when addressing the "boat people" issue. He copped a LOT of flak from the left at the time but he was dead right. The issue was not one of compassion for those poor souls on the boats - it was border security - the Governments higher priority.

9 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

I don't fear anything.

For someone who doesn't fear anything you sure are quick to "cock my pistol". Sounds like fear or paranoia to me. How about you just say you think "Working for a better America for all" is a shit statement? No need to get yur gun son!

And yeah, China have some systemic weaknesses that will hold them back for quite a while - but they also have some emerging strengths.

in 2017 America published 409,000 scientific white papers. China published 426,000. This is an example year - but the trend is going up for China, down for the US. With China moving into space and developing all the ideas and tech it has stolen from the west, the Chinese will soon match or blow away the US for brains reserves to draw on. Innovation and entrepreneurship will hold the US in the lead for a while longer - China simply can't match the US in that respect - but the danger is thinking this will prohibit China from finding a way to innovate without a free market of ideas like the West enjoys. They will need to figure out how to incentivise their best and brightest to innovate. And science matters. It always has despite recent times relegating science into the "fake news" bonfire. Something to discard if it does not fit in with a particular world view.

China are also showing the developing world there is an alternative to the west. It is a horrific alternative in my view - but they can sell it against the historically imperialistic and colonial past the west offered that raped countries for all they were worth resource wise. it is not a pretty picture. The "developing" world won't forever be mired in poverty and corruption - at least not all of them. And if China can get enough large emerging economies aligned with theirs, their sphere of influence just grows.

They are not a threat now. To think they are not a threat soon - dangerous.

I too see things the way they are Steve and it's not a pretty reality at the moment. Not bad at all personally from my seat here, but there is some crazy shit humanity seems intent on swimming around in. I'll always have a space for how things can be better. I'd hope you do to mate. That is not a bad thing.

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4 hours ago, rm2551 said:

For someone who doesn't fear anything you sure are quick to "cock my pistol". Sounds like fear or paranoia to me. How about you just say you think "Working for a better America for all" is a shit statement? No need to get yur gun son!

Fear has got nothing to do with it. Anger perhaps.

 

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On 7/21/2019 at 10:45 AM, SteveAJones said:

Small world! I lived in the UK for several years, and let me tell you things have changed. Specifically, in February 2018 the NHS imposed a 90 day minimum waiting period for non-emergency care on account of budget cut backs. Did you get that? 90 DAYS. 

You should never underestimate the societal advantages that come with having a smaller, homogenous population AND secure borders.  

Gee, who was in power in 2018???? Hmmm, I wonder who????

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On 7/21/2019 at 2:24 PM, kipper said:

^^^THIS!

Bernie Sanders is always comparing the healthcare systems in places like Norway to ours here in America and claiming we should have could have the same result. Difference of course is that places like Norway, Switzerland, Japan... and yes, even much of Canada doesn't have millions and millions of people sitting around, not working, into crime, and having a bunch of children they can't care for.

All that "medicare for all" would do in America is make all healthcare lousy for everyone; why penalize people who already have their shit together in favor of people who are the cause of their own problems.... including illegal aliens?  How unfair to all of the Americans who worked hard their whole live, retired, are now eligible for medicare---and they now have to wait inline for care with illegal aliens!

 

 

Great, since you feel that way Kip I am sure you will not be signing up for Medicare when you turn 65 correct? Would not want you to have to deal with that garbage.

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32 minutes ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Great, since you feel that way Kip I am sure you will not be signing up for Medicare when you turn 65 correct? Would not want you to have to deal with that garbage.

I think you are missing the point Peacefrog.  Everyone currently with private healthcare insurance which they may be receiving as part of their retirement from careers they worked over a lifetime... many union workers, or people who earned a pension. ALL will at age 65 need to apply for Medicare part B supplemental insurance as their private insurance now transitions from carrying the entire weight of the coverage to what Americans at age 65 have now waited to get. It works similar to Social Security. Workers paid into the medicare program with their payroll taxes and then in the later years of their lives are now entitled to get those benefits. They earned them, and have waited for them.

Calling for "Medicare for all" is giving away the store to people who ARE NOT ENTITLED to those benefits--- especially not to illegal aliens who are not even retirement age anyway. Why would we be giving away what Americans earned and waited for to everyone or anyone?  That is THEFT.

Yes, I will be signing up for Medicare at age 65, and yes I will be getting a SS check too. I would have preferred decades ago that we as a nation got away from that type of social entitlements, but we didn't. But now to offer to give it away for nothing to people who do not deserve it just as others are retiring or already retired is unjust and un American.

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14 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Gee, who was in power in 2018???? Hmmm, I wonder who????

More deflection and partisan bullshit. 🙄 

13 hours ago, kipper said:

Yes, I will be signing up for Medicare at age 65, and yes I will be getting a SS check too. I would have preferred decades ago that we as a nation got away from that type of social entitlements, but we didn't. 

They're called "entitlements" for government budget purposes but they're actually benefits EARNED by paying into the system. You paid into it, you should take from it.  

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13 hours ago, kipper said:

I think you are missing the point Peacefrog.  Everyone currently with private healthcare insurance which they may be receiving as part of their retirement from careers they worked over a lifetime... many union workers, or people who earned a pension. ALL will at age 65 need to apply for Medicare part B supplemental insurance as their private insurance now transitions from carrying the entire weight of the coverage to what Americans at age 65 have now waited to get. It works similar to Social Security. Workers paid into the medicare program with their payroll taxes and then in the later years of their lives are now entitled to get those benefits. They earned them, and have waited for them.

Calling for "Medicare for all" is giving away the store to people who ARE NOT ENTITLED to those benefits--- especially not to illegal aliens who are not even retirement age anyway. Why would we be giving away what Americans earned and waited for to everyone or anyone?  That is THEFT.

Yes, I will be signing up for Medicare at age 65, and yes I will be getting a SS check too. I would have preferred decades ago that we as a nation got away from that type of social entitlements, but we didn't. But now to offer to give it away for nothing to people who do not deserve it just as others are retiring or already retired is unjust and un American.

That is called a circular argument. First you claim such as system stinks and does not work, then you claim well, it does work but only under a certain criteria. You want to talk about theft? Ok, what about the Social Security Act of April 1983 when Reagan and a bi-partisan congress looted SS, the most successful government program at the time. Or how about 70% of African-Americans who will never collect a dime because their average life expectancy is 65 years old? Or how about people such as my father who died at age 65 after collecting one check. There are millions upon millions of Americans who pay into this system but never receive a dime, instead the government just takes that money and redistributes it to other programs, mostly military related. Now that is what I call theft.

Also, per the GAO and every other independent accounting agency, Medicare for all would SAVE American taxpayers over 2 trillion compared to what is in place now. BONUS: No more losing ones life's savings due to a disease or accident. No more being denied credit due to unpaid medical bills again as a result of matters completely out of a persons control. Talking about control, there are two reasons and two reasons only we do not have a single-payer or other type of hybrid style system such as other countries enjoy. Those reasons are profit as primary concern and overall control over the majority of the American people. You want to leave your current, shitty job and get a better job? Well, I hope you enjoy not having coverage for three months, hope your kids don't get sick. Healthcare is the primary reason people stay in shitty jobs, the primary reason most Americans cannot enjoy upward mobility.

 

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4 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

There are millions upon millions of Americans who pay into this system but never receive a dime, instead the government just takes that money and redistributes it to other programs, mostly military related. Now that is what I call theft.

Also, per the GAO and every other independent accounting agency, Medicare for all would SAVE American taxpayers over 2 trillion compared to what is in place now. BONUS: No more losing ones life's savings due to a disease or accident. No more being denied credit due to unpaid medical bills again as a result of matters completely out of a persons control. Talking about control, there are two reasons and two reasons only we do not have a single-payer or other type of hybrid style system such as other countries enjoy. Those reasons are profit as primary concern and overall control over the majority of the American people. You want to leave your current, shitty job and get a better job? Well, I hope you enjoy not having coverage for three months, hope your kids don't get sick. Healthcare is the primary reason people stay in shitty jobs, the primary reason most Americans cannot enjoy upward mobility.

On one hand you recognize government CANNOT be trusted, and on the other you want to put them in complete and absolute control of health care. Incongruent much? Just get on board with downsizing government, pushing these career politicians and know nothing charlatans to the funny pages where they belong, and let the free market dictate the options available. "Health care is a human right!" Oh, blow it out your ass, Bernie.

 

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