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BEST ZEPP CONCERT?


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9/29/71 in Osaka! I was thinking back on what show is actually my favorite and I really couldn't say it's anything other than this one. It's really dear to me personally.

When I was a young teen, I didn't have an iPod or any mp3 type devices (this was around 10 years ago), so I just ended up using my dad's old Walkman when I wanted to have my music on the go. I had just gotten into Zep bootlegs around then, and saved up to order a copy of the 9/29 show, the Nighthawk CD version. I remember listening to it constantly at home, but wanting to have it for bus rides and just when I was out in general! So I bootlegged my bootleg ūü§£ I used some old casette tapes my dad had and taped the whole thing. It fit on a couple casette tapes, and those things with me to hell and back. In the process I became intimately familiar with the show, and I love every minute of it.

Funnily enough, it's still the show I listen to most. Albeit with half of it now being replaced with the vastly superior soundboard source. Here's to hoping the rest comes out eventually!

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  • 3 weeks later...

It's hard to pick just one because it can change with my mood, but I would have to go for Osaka 71 or Blueberry Hill 70.

There are some great shows in 75 and 77 but the problems with those shows is either Plant's lower range or Page's erratic playing. For instance, a very popular on is Eddie, but Plant's using his B voice, not his A+ voice (Honolulu 70'), and Page, while being in good form for 77' isn't as sharp as in his best shows from the early days. Another show I love is Nassau 75', but for the same reasons I guess I couldn't choose it as my favorite. I have a hard time understanding how people can choose shows from 75-80 as their all time favorites given Plant's harsh limitations and Jimmy's inability to play like he did in 71-73. One thing about the later shows though is that the set lists are big and varied. We get to hear some of the great songs from the later days.

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1 hour ago, Christopher Lees said:

It's hard to pick just one because it can change with my mood, but I would have to go for Osaka 71 or Blueberry Hill 70.

There are some great shows in 75 and 77 but the problems with those shows is either Plant's lower range or Page's erratic playing. For instance, a very popular on is Eddie, but Plant's using his B voice, not his A+ voice (Honolulu 70'), and Page, while being in good form for 77' isn't as sharp as in his best shows from the early days. Another show I love is Nassau 75', but for the same reasons I guess I couldn't choose it as my favorite. I have a hard time understanding how people can choose shows from 75-80 as their all time favorites given Plant's harsh limitations and Jimmy's inability to play like he did in 71-73. One thing about the later shows though is that the set lists are big and varied. We get to hear some of the great songs from the later days.

I must disagree here as IMO, Plant's delivery for most of 77' was better, again, IMO, than in any of the early shows where he screams like a banshee. His 77' voice was my favorite as he was using more of his whole voice and had much more resonance as well. A good example is Black Country Woman, holy shit when the song goes uptempo Plant belts it out, and more powerfully than in the early days. I would gladly take his limited high range in exchange for the warmth and resonance of his voice in 77'.

Now for Page. Yes, he was erratic as a live player from 75'-83' however when he was on, he was ON! As in better than anything he had done 68'-73'. Hell, the NQ's from EC, especially the 18th & 23rd more than prove that and the LA & NY runs in 77' are pure lightning in a bottle.

I would agree the band was much more consistent live from 68'-73' as it is quite difficult to find an even mediocre performance from that period. However 75'-79' had some amazing shows.

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20 minutes ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

I would agree the band was much more consistent live from 68'-73' as it is quite difficult to find an even mediocre performance from that period. However 75'-79' had some amazing shows.

I would say that erratic performances began to creep in around the '73 England tour. Shows like Southampton prove Page and Plant were both beginning to struggle and drag the band down at times. The US '72 Tour is the last in which you could see the band on any given night and get a great show. Of course, with these inconsistencies, the band proved they could prevail quite well considering the years best and most memorable performances of the year. But this is steadfast balanced by the more shoddy performances (Southampton, both Chicago shows, Sheffield)

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I tend to agree with the sentiments above -- it's not so much that the ceiling lowered after '73, but rather the floor did.  Whereas the range in quality night-to-night on the Summer 1970 tour was great to all-time great, the range on the 1977 tour was horrendous to all-time great. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 10 months later...
On 5/28/2009 at 12:59 PM, Dirigible said:

I don't want anyone to mistakenly think I don't like Moon's drumming, but his playing is over-rated. He made a great clown prince of rock although his drumming ability never floored me. To me his drumming was a bit better than Ringo's, but a far cry from Bonzo's. I don't know if you play the drums or not, bigstickbonzo, or how long you have if you do, but as someone who's been drumming since 1968 the only amazing chops I've EVER heard from Moon were prior to and last heard on 'Live At Leeds.' Before 'Who's Next' was recorded Moon didn't even play a hi-hat; guess you can chalk that up to how unique he was. If you want to hear how exciting rock drumming can get, listen to Townsend's favorite drummer Simon Phillips. The drummers I mentioned before (Danelli, Baker, Mitchell) are all technically equal to and surpass Moon's best drumming in the sixties. If Moon's your idea of an amazing drummer get a load of Tony Williams, Vinnie Colaiuta, Dave Weckl, Billy Cobham or even that other over-rated skin basher, Neil Peart.

 

You may not want to admit it, but Moon was more known for running his mouth than running circles around other drummers. :rolleyes:

11 years late to the conversation, but I am eager to reply to your thread of "insightful" comments regarding Keith Moon's musicianship. Where to begin?

I will start by addressing what you seem to think makes you an authority on this subject - "Someone who's been drumming since 1968." It is remarkable that, as a percussionist of over 50 years and apparently better than one of the most celebrated rock drummers of all time (based off your comments that it would only take "three or four" minutes to learn anything he played after 1970), no one has ever heard of you. Life must have dealt you a truly unfortunate hand, that someone of your ability has gone unnoticed for decades, outside of a Led Zeppelin forum. All I can say is, as a jazz drummer in NYC, I have seen many grey-haired drummers at jam sessions whose abilities are laughable - and not because their age has contributed to any decline in technical facility.

You assert that a drummer such as Ginger Baker's technical facility surpasses Keith Moon's in his prime, and instruct anyone impressed with Moon's playing to check out players like Tony Williams - who himself described Moon's playing as "beautiful and totally free." Elvin Jones, one of the greatest percussionists of all time (anyone you listed would second that), took part in a blind listening test in the early 70s - two of the subjects were Baker and Moon (unbeknownst to Jones). He summarized Baker''s playing as "delusions of grandeur with no grounds," stating that Cream should "make him an astronaut and lose his ass." Upon hearing a recording of Tommy, he stated, "See there, where the tempo started to die, how he picked it up! The man is a drummer. Everything they play, he contains it." 

You repeatedly bring up the notion of "chops." Since when has technical facility, or "chops," ever been a marker of high musicianship, or a good drummer? Technical facility serves as a means to expressing one's musical ideas, but certainly does not make a great musician in and of itself. Technical ability without musical application is as impressive as stringing together large words which carry no meaning in their greater context. As Elvin attested, Moon's drumming was highly musical and supportive, and that is the role of a drummer. Your idea that Moon was merely playing "licks," which you you could easily learn in three minutes (you probably could, seeing as the purpose of Moon's drumming was not to showcase his technical prowess, but to support the music, which does not often require technically complex fills), displays a rather immature view of the role of a drummer, and a lack of comprehension of what Moon did in the Who, at all stages of his career. Of course, while it may be slight hyperbole on your part, if learning a Bonham "lick" would take you years, perhaps there is a reason no one has heard of you throughout your 52 year career. You did acknowledge you're "Not a great drummer or anything," so I needn't harp on that point.

For someone making all these seemingly "informed" remarks about Moon, you are conspicuously ignorant. Your claim that "Before 'Who's Next' was recorded Moon didn't even play a hi-hat," can be dismissed upon hearing Side 1 Track 1 of Tommy - "Overture." Keith Moon uses hi-hat heavily on this track as well as throughout the album. He may also use hi-hat on earlier records, I'm simply using Tommy as a quick and effective example to refute your point. It's true he didn't play hi-hats on stage until 1973, but your assertion that Moon did not use a hi-hat at all prior to recording Who's Next is so easily disproven that it calls into question your authority on anything Moon-related. Saying Moon's drumming is only "a bit" better than Ringo's elicits a nice holiday chuckle from me on this Christmas afternoon, so I thank you. 

These posts were from 2009 and perhaps you've reformed your views, but I felt compelled to explain why your disparaging remarks towards Moon's drumming don't hold water, neither in the views of musicians like Elvin Jones and Tony Williams, nor in the recorded history of the Who's music.

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On 12/25/2020 at 1:00 PM, toastandtea said:

11 years late to the conversation, but I am eager to reply to your thread of "insightful" comments regarding Keith Moon's musicianship. Where to begin?

I will start by addressing what you seem to think makes you an authority on this subject - "Someone who's been drumming since 1968." It is remarkable that, as a percussionist of over 50 years and apparently better than one of the most celebrated rock drummers of all time (based off your comments that it would only take "three or four" minutes to learn anything he played after 1970), no one has ever heard of you. Life must have dealt you a truly unfortunate hand, that someone of your ability has gone unnoticed for decades, outside of a Led Zeppelin forum. All I can say is, as a jazz drummer in NYC, I have seen many grey-haired drummers at jam sessions whose abilities are laughable - and not because their age has contributed to any decline in technical facility.

You assert that a drummer such as Ginger Baker's technical facility surpasses Keith Moon's in his prime, and instruct anyone impressed with Moon's playing to check out players like Tony Williams - who himself described Moon's playing as "beautiful and totally free." Elvin Jones, one of the greatest percussionists of all time (anyone you listed would second that), took part in a blind listening test in the early 70s - two of the subjects were Baker and Moon (unbeknownst to Jones). He summarized Baker''s playing as "delusions of grandeur with no grounds," stating that Cream should "make him an astronaut and lose his ass." Upon hearing a recording of Tommy, he stated, "See there, where the tempo started to die, how he picked it up! The man is a drummer. Everything they play, he contains it." 

You repeatedly bring up the notion of "chops." Since when has technical facility, or "chops," ever been a marker of high musicianship, or a good drummer? Technical facility serves as a means to expressing one's musical ideas, but certainly does not make a great musician in and of itself. Technical ability without musical application is as impressive as stringing together large words which carry no meaning in their greater context. As Elvin attested, Moon's drumming was highly musical and supportive, and that is the role of a drummer. Your idea that Moon was merely playing "licks," which you you could easily learn in three minutes (you probably could, seeing as the purpose of Moon's drumming was not to showcase his technical prowess, but to support the music, which does not often require technically complex fills), displays a rather immature view of the role of a drummer, and a lack of comprehension of what Moon did in the Who, at all stages of his career. Of course, while it may be slight hyperbole on your part, if learning a Bonham "lick" would take you years, perhaps there is a reason no one has heard of you throughout your 52 year career. You did acknowledge you're "Not a great drummer or anything," so I needn't harp on that point.

For someone making all these seemingly "informed" remarks about Moon, you are conspicuously ignorant. Your claim that "Before 'Who's Next' was recorded Moon didn't even play a hi-hat," can be dismissed upon hearing Side 1 Track 1 of Tommy - "Overture." Keith Moon uses hi-hat heavily on this track as well as throughout the album. He may also use hi-hat on earlier records, I'm simply using Tommy as a quick and effective example to refute your point. It's true he didn't play hi-hats on stage until 1973, but your assertion that Moon did not use a hi-hat at all prior to recording Who's Next is so easily disproven that it calls into question your authority on anything Moon-related. Saying Moon's drumming is only "a bit" better than Ringo's elicits a nice holiday chuckle from me on this Christmas afternoon, so I thank you. 

These posts were from 2009 and perhaps you've reformed your views, but I felt compelled to explain why your disparaging remarks towards Moon's drumming don't hold water, neither in the views of musicians like Elvin Jones and Tony Williams, nor in the recorded history of the Who's music.

:goodpost:

 

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