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As as American, dare I ask what you would know of my parents 'culture'? I wouldn't presume to say that my culture didn't suffer any hardships and segregation simply because I'm British.

It doesn't matter where you're from; the fact is, being strict is universally acknowledged with the same actions worldwide - adhering to particular principles imposed upon you. Frightening and terrorizing your child just because you can is not being strict.

Segregation was part of life in the United States.

In the year that Michael Jackson was born in a midwestern steel town, Gary, Indiana, there was no fair housing law yet in force.

Segregation was legal, and accomplished by the practice of "red-lining".

Realtors would take a red pen and draw a line on a map. If you were black, you could buy property only on designated areas of the map, on one side of the red line.

Michael Jackson's father wanted very badly for his children to have an opportunity outside of U.S. Steel Corporation. He worked very hard to see to it that they had that chance.

That does not excuse him for the stupid things he did. He's human, and he made mistakes.

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Segregation was part of life in the United States.

In the year that Michael Jackson was born in a midwestern steel town, Gary, Indiana, there was no fair housing law yet force.

Segregation was legal, and accomplished by the practice of "red-lining".

Realtors would take a red pen and draw a line on a map. If you were black, you could buy property only on designated areas of the map, on one side of the red line.

Michael Jackson's father wanted very badly for his children to have an opportunity outside of U.S. Steel Corporation. He worked very hard to see to it that they had that chance.

All very nice to know, but that wasn't my point. My point was, wherever you are in this world, being strict does not usually mean to strike such fear into your child that they vomit when you're near them.

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All very nice to know, but that wasn't my point. My point was, wherever you are in this world, being strict does not usually mean to strike such fear into your child that they vomit when you're near them.

You're right, he wasn't the perfect father.

But he is the reason that his children do not back down from life's challenges. They learned that from him.

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I agree that abuse is not ok.

I'm just saying that if he had not cared about his children, then he would have disappeared from their lives and abandoned them and their mother.

He did the opposite. He stuck around and worked hard.

There were times when the kids probably wished he would have taken a vacation away from them to give them some peace, but he was there for them.

They did not have a question mark for a father.

Actually, that's exactly what they had. I'm sure all the other African American hard-working, blue collar workers who wanted the best for their children wouldn't be at all offended by your definition of 'strict but misguided' parenting. That is soooome stereotype WOW.

Anyway, I'm done being goaded into discussions about Joe Jackson's parenting methods. I trust his kids' judgment, thanks.

What really pisses me off though is the fact that it took HALF AN HOUR for someone to call 911. HALF-AN-HOUR.

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Actually, that's exactly what they had. I'm sure all the other African American hard-working, blue collar workers who wanted the best for their children wouldn't be at all offended by your definition of 'strict but misguided' parenting. That is soooome stereotype WOW.

Anyway, I'm done being goaded into discussions about Joe Jackson's parenting methods. I trust his kids' judgment, thanks.

What really pisses me off though is the fact that it took HALF AN HOUR for someone to call 911. HALF-AN-HOUR.

I'm just saying that he did not disappear and abandon them. He thought that he was doing the right thing. He was wrong, at least in some ways.

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VERY good point. I watched my mother do the same thing last year when my dad passed away.

No, Joe Jackson is not being an asshole in public because he doesn't want to cry in public.

He's being an asshole in public because he is an asshole.

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Well, let's just say that if I were one of his grandkids and standing right next to him, I wouldn't talk that way unless my gramma were standing right there next to me and she was definitely on my side.

And the rest of the time I'd run and hide and hope he forgot everything I said.

I think maybe Michael Jackson may have excluded his father from the will to prevent him from unduly excercising power over the grandchildren, as a way of protecting them from the bad graces of the grandfather.

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The perception by legal experts on the news is that after the second autopsy, the family now must know exactly what MJ had in his system at the time of death. What drugs and how much. Yet they are not saying anything. Perhaps waiting for someone to leak it so they can sue? Nothing would surprise me. The showing of his body is sure to be a media circus on the 4th of July weekend. I wonder if he requested this in his will? Certainly not something I would want.

examiner.com...Michael-Jackson-Will-surfaces-leaves-estate-to-kids-mom-and-charity

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The perception by legal experts on the news is that after the second autopsy, the family now must know exactly what MJ had in his system at the time of death. What drugs and how much. Yet they are not saying anything. Perhaps waiting for someone to leak it so they can sue? Nothing would surprise me. The showing of his body is sure to be a media circus on the 4th of July weekend. I wonder if he requested this in his will? Certainly not something I would want.

I doubt that's why they aren't saying anything. Perhaps it's not the first thing on their mind to make public statements when they've just lost their son/brother.

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Dylan came to our town a couple years ago and it didn't come near selling out our minor-league baseball stadium - maybe 1500 or so in attendance.

Well yeah! Because we are all old fuckers now that's why. Besides not wanting to pay ridiculous ticket prices (I think I paid like $6 to see the stones and about $12 to see Zep back in the day), we also don't like being outside in the cold.

But if you think the MJ was more popular to his generation than Dylan was to his; I just don't know about that.

No arguing Dylan or Berry's influence on music - Michael's influence was not just on pop music but pop culture. Dylan and Berry I would say their influence was more from a musical perspective, if that makes sense.

Sure it does. But then aren't you just saying that MJ was the most succesful of the 'teen idol' genre?

Obviously 'culture' plays into it all as you say. But compare for example a guy like Frank Sinatra and his appeal to fans in his generation/era to that of Jackson in his. I would say that Sinatra probably appealed to a much greater percentage of the available population in his day than Jackson did in his. I am the same age as Jackson and except for some the cute R&B shit he did with his brothers; I didn't care at all for his music or his "culture."

I just don't get where his music was better than Marvin Gaye, Luther Vandross, Stevie Wonder or any number of R&B / pop artists. Truth is he just pretty much captured all the teenie bopper crowd and people who are amused by that kind of weird persona stuff. Sort of the Pop music answer to that really horrible band from the 70s known as KISS. (Btw, is that a racoon living on top of Gene Simmons' head?)

Whatever the case is, there's no denying the magnitude of Michael's popularity. As an aside, yes people like Miley Cyrus and the Jonas Brothers sell millions but with them, it becomes more a "flavor of the month" situation. Most of the tween stars have short lived fame where Michael's never waned. Proof being after not releasing anything for years selling out 50 dates in one city alone.

I have a theory on that and much of it relies on the fact that there are many people out there who are just dying to experience something that they may have missed out on back in the day or weren't even old enough (or born yet) to have experienced.

I'm sure if they dug up Jimi Hendrix and announced a concert tour, he probably could sell 200 dates in London, New York or Los Angeles too.

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AP Report:

LOS ANGELES – Michael Jackson was so distraught over persistent insomnia in recent months that he pleaded for a powerful sedative despite warnings it could be harmful, says a nutritionist who was working with the singer as he prepared his comeback bid.

Cherilyn Lee, a registered nurse whose specialty includes nutritional counseling, said Tuesday that she repeatedly rejected his demands for the drug, Diprivan, which is given intravenously.

But a frantic phone call she received from Jackson four days before his death made her fear that he somehow obtained Diprivan or another drug to induce sleep, Lee said.

While in Florida on June 21, Lee was contacted by a member of Jackson's staff.

"He called and was very frantic and said, `Michael needs to see you right away.' I said, 'What's wrong?' And I could hear Michael in the background ..., 'One side of my body is hot, it's hot, and one side of my body is cold. It's very cold,'" Lee said.

"I said, `Tell him he needs to go the hospital. I don't know what's going on, but he needs to go to the hospital ... right away."

"At that point, I knew that somebody had given him something that hit the central nervous system," she said, adding, "He was in trouble Sunday and he was crying out."

Jackson did not go to the hospital. He died June 25 after suffering cardiac arrest, his family said. Autopsies have been conducted, but an official cause of death is not expected for several weeks.

"I don't know what happened there. The only thing I can say is he was adamant about this drug," Lee said.

Following Jackson's death, allegations emerged that the 50-year-old King of Pop had been consuming painkillers, sedatives and antidepressants. But Lee said she encountered a man tortured by sleep deprivation and one who expressed opposition to recreational drug use.

"He wasn't looking to get high or feel good and sedated from drugs," she said. "This was a person who was not on drugs. This was a person who was seeking help, desperately, to get some sleep, to get some rest."

Jackson was rehearsing hard for what would have been his big comeback — his "This Is It" tour, a series of performances that would have strained his aging dancer's body. Also, pain had been a part of his life since 1984, when his scalp was severely burned during a Pepsi commercial shoot.

"The Incredible Hulk" star Lou Ferrigno, who's been working out with Jackson for the past several months, said Jackson was focused on health.

"When he was with me, he wasn't different. He wasn't stoned. He wasn't high. He wasn't being aloof or speedy. Never talked about drugs," Ferrigno said. "I've never seen him take drugs. He was always talking about nutrition."

Several months ago, Jackson had begun badgering Lee about Diprivan, also known as Propofol, Lee said. It is an intravenous anesthetic drug widely used in operating rooms to induce unconsciousness. It is generally given through an IV needle in the hand.

Patients given Propofol take less time to regain consciousness than those administered certain other drugs, and they report waking up more clear-headed and refreshed, said University of Chicago psychopharmacologist James Zacny.

It has also been implicated in drug abuse, with people using it to "chill out" or to commit suicide, Zacny said. Accidental deaths linked to abuse have been reported. The powerful drug has a very narrow therapeutic window, meaning it doesn't take doses much larger than the medically recommended amount to stop a person's breathing.

An overdose that stops breathing can result in a buildup of carbon dioxide, causing the heart to beat erratically and leading to cardiac arrest, said Dr. John Dombrowski, a member of the board of directors of the American Society of Anesthesiologists.

Because it is given intravenously and is not the kind of prescription drug typically available from pharmacists, abuse cases have involved anesthesiologists, nurses and other hospital staffers with easy access to the drug, Zacny said.

In recent months, Lee said, Jackson waved away her warnings about it.

"I had an IV and when it hit my vein, I was sleeping. That's what I want," Lee said Jackson told her.

"I said, 'Michael, the only problem with you taking this medication' — and I had a chill in my body and tears in my eyes three months ago — 'the only problem is you're going to take it and you're not going to wake up," she recalled.

According to Lee, Jackson said it had been given to him before but he didn't want to discuss the circumstances or identify the doctor involved.

Londell McMillan, attorney for Katherine and Joe Jackson, talked about Lee's disclosures Tuesday on CNN.

"It's a hearsay comment. It would be inadmissible anywhere in a court of law," he said. "I also wonder why anyone would make a comment about something that they don't have much knowledge about. They didn't see the drug administered. It's again because of the Michael Jackson factor."

Lee said the singer drew his own distinctions when it came to drugs versus prescription medicine.

"He said, `I don't like drugs. I don't want any drugs. My doctor told me this is a safe medicine,'" Lee said. The next day, she said she brought a copy of the Physician's Desk Reference to show him the section on Diprivan.

"He said, 'No, my doctor said it's safe. It works quick and it's safe as long as somebody's here to monitor me and wake me up. It's going be OK,'" Lee said. She said he did not give the doctor's name.

Lee said at one point, she spent the night with Jackson to monitor him while he slept. She said she gave him herbal remedies and stayed in a corner chair in his vast bedroom.

After he settled in bed, Lee told Jackson to turn down the lights and music — he had classical music playing in the house. "He also had a computer on the bed because he loved Walt Disney," she said. "He was watching Donald Duck and it was ongoing. I said, `Maybe if we put on softer music,' and he said, `No, this is how I go to sleep.'"

Three and a half hours later, Jackson jumped up and looked at Lee, eyes wide open, according to Lee. "This is what happens to me," she quoted him as saying. "All I want is to be able to sleep. I want to be able to sleep eight hours. I know I'll feel better the next day."

Lee, 56, is licensed as a registered nurse and nurse practitioner in California, according to the state Board of Registered Nursing's Web site. She attended Los Angeles Southwest College and the Charles Drew University of Medicine and Sciences in Los Angeles.

Comedian Dick Gregory, who knows Lee and her work, said he believes Jackson's insomnia had its roots in the pop star's 2005 trial on child molestation charges. Jackson's health had deteriorated so much that his parents called Gregory, a natural foods proponent, for help.

Gregory said Jackson wasn't eating or drinking at the time and, after he was persuaded by Gregory to undergo testing, ended up hospitalized for severe dehydration.

But Jackson obviously was healthy enough to withstand the level of medical scrutiny needed to insure him for the upcoming high-stakes London concerts, Gregory said. "That you don't trick," he said of the exams.

Lee, who has also worked with Stevie Wonder, Marla Gibbs, Reynaldo Rey and other celebrities, said she was introduced to Jackson by the mother of one of his staff members. Jackson's three children had minor cold symptoms and their pediatrician was out of town.

Lee said she went to the house in January, the first of about 10 visits there through April, and treated the children with vitamins. Michael, intrigued, asked what else she did and took her up on her claim she could boost his energy.

After running blood tests, she devised protein shakes for him and gave him an intravenous vitamin and mineral mixture — known as a "Myers cocktail," after Dr. John Myers — which Lee said she uses routinely in her practice.

"It wasn't that he felt sick," she said. "He just wanted more energy."

Lee said she decided to speak out to protect Jackson's reputation from what she considers unfounded allegations of drug abuse or shortcomings as a parent.

"I think it's so wrong for people to say these things about him," she said. "He was a wonderful, loving father who wanted the best for his children."

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I just want to say that by posting the links and statements that I have, that I am not in any way trying to sensationalise or spread rumor. I am not trying to pump up tabloidesque rumor or focus ill light on Micheal Jackson. The truth will hopefully come out in the end. I just see stuff coming out and I share it. I mean no disrespect. Nuff said I hope.

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Just wait til some years later when the conspiracy theories come up like:

He has been murdered by the FBI/some secret society/terrorists....whomever

He faked his death ans lives on an island with Elvis, Jim M, and 2Pac

He was taken home by the Annunaki

He will return in 2012 (at teatime)

etc

etc

blah

blah

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Well yeah! Because we are all old fuckers now that's why. Besides not wanting to pay ridiculous ticket prices (I think I paid like $6 to see the stones and about $12 to see Zep back in the day), we also don't like being outside in the cold.

actually the tickets were cheap as hell - like $20 or $25

of course his voice has been a wreck for a long time

but it was cool to hear songs with so much "history"

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I think Michael will remain as much of an enigma in death as he was in life.

I hate to bring this up, but I think Joseph Jackson takes a little too much heat for what ultimately happened to Michael. He was nothing more than a crude hard-working factory rat that didn't want his sons to end up the same way or even worse. Gary, Indiana was and is a tough town. It's not easy for people with little education to keep kids from the ghetto on the straight and narrow. He was also dealing with a child prodigy....and had very few tools or training to handle the situation properly. I've never heard any of Michael's brothers talk anywhere near as evil about their Father as Michael did. For an uneducated man, he made some very intelligent business decisions. He had a dream and he saw it through. Certainly he had some major flaws....living through his children was certainly one of them. I'm not saying the guy wasn't a jerk, but the Jackson 5 and Michael himself would probably have never achieved the success they did without their Father's discipline and influence.

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I think Michael will remain as much of an enigma in death as he was in life.

I hate to bring this up, but I think Joseph Jackson takes a little too much heat for what ultimately happened to Michael. He was nothing more than a crude hard-working factory rat that didn't want his sons to end up the same way or even worse. Gary, Indiana was and is a tough town. It's not easy for people with little education to keep kids from the ghetto on the straight and narrow. He was also dealing with a child prodigy....and had very few tools or training to handle the situation properly. I've never heard any of Michael's brothers talk anywhere near as evil about their Father as Michael did. For an uneducated man, he made some very intelligent business decisions. He had a dream and he saw it through. Certainly he had some major flaws....living through his children was certainly one of them. I'm not saying the guy wasn't a jerk, but the Jackson 5 and Michael himself would probably have never achieved the success they did without their Father's discipline and influence.

It's not the only factor, surely, but a largely contributing factor if you consider the importance of parental influence especially early in life. Couple that with a sensitive person and you've got a recipe for disaster. He never felt comfortable or secure in his own skin, like he was never good enough because he was a fucking meal ticket. LaToya's book outlines abuses as well.

There was a reason that Joe Jackson was left out of the will, that he was married to Katherine in name only for the last ten years or so, and that he's been residing some 200 miles or so over in Vegas. This isn't the Lohan or Hilton family where every private burp is regrettably (for us) publicized. Getting his kids to practice or do gigs or whatever and being a hard disciplinarian is one thing. Beyonce's dad was tough, too, for instance, you don't hear her bashing him. Let's not confuse or minimize personal impact because he contributed to public success. He surely would not have been as estranged from the family had things been ok between them.

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It's not the only factor, surely, but a largely contributing factor if you consider the importance of parental influence especially early in life. Couple that with a sensitive person and you've got a recipe for disaster. He never felt comfortable or secure in his own skin, like he was never good enough because he was a fucking meal ticket. LaToya's book outlines abuses as well.

There was a reason that Joe Jackson was left out of the will, that he was married to Katherine in name only for the last ten years or so, and that he's been residing some 200 miles or so over in Vegas. This isn't the Lohan or Hilton family where every private burp is regrettably (for us) publicized. Getting his kids to practice or do gigs or whatever and being a hard disciplinarian is one thing. Beyonce's dad was tough, too, for instance, you don't hear her bashing him. Let's not confuse or minimize personal impact because he contributed to public success. He surely would not have been as estranged from the family had things been ok between them.

I can't argue with your opinion, because from that perspective you are right. I was just trying to offer another angle. I think that success and money obviously twisted Joseph just as much as it did Michael over time. As for Latoya, I can't think of anyone less credible related to this story....except maybe Uri Keller. :D

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I can't argue with your opinion, because from that perspective you are right. I was just trying to offer another angle. I think that success and money obviously twisted Joseph just as much as it did Michael over time. As for Latoya, I can't think of anyone less credible related to this story....except maybe Uri Keller. :D

Yeah I knew LaToya's version wouldn't be without critique, I just used her because she's a Jackson who spoke up about things. But even sticking to what MJ said it was really bad, and considering disclosure of abuse is usually like an iceberg (you see only ten percent) one can only imagine what hasn't been said. But I understand there will be differing opinions and rumors swirling now more than ever.

Anyway, there's no doubt that Michael was a broken man, and the reasons for it were accruing over his lifetime; that dichotomy between his personal demons and his phenomenal talent seemed ever far apart. It's sad; he could have lived longer and been a lot happier. I'm glad he left so much behind for us to enjoy.

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All good points, and it's even possible that I am being biased from the perspective of my generation as well.

But here is test for you. I will name a song by a few artists and you can put a song by Jackson (or Jackson 5) next to it that you feel was just as big of a hit or as big of an impact on rock/pop music.

Here we go:

Blowin' in the Wind - Bob Dylan

Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis

I want to hold your hand - Beatles

Johnny B. Goode - Chuck Berry

Imagine - John Lennon

Satisfaction - Stones

SWTH - Zeppelin

My Generation - The Who

With the exception of his ability to dance and get every one else to like and copy that dance, I don't see any relation to trying to compare Jackson to a group or individual who had a big hit in there time. Besides "The King's" "Heartbreak Hotel", every one you mentioned wrote there own song's, while Jackson did do a lot of writing he was not the type (pre Thriller) to be the major song writer for his work. He was just very popular among his follower's, I believe that "Billy Jean" was his best work.

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I think Michael will remain as much of an enigma in death as he was in life.

I hate to bring this up, but I think Joseph Jackson takes a little too much heat for what ultimately happened to Michael. He was nothing more than a crude hard-working factory rat that didn't want his sons to end up the same way or even worse. Gary, Indiana was and is a tough town. It's not easy for people with little education to keep kids from the ghetto on the straight and narrow. He was also dealing with a child prodigy....and had very few tools or training to handle the situation properly. I've never heard any of Michael's brothers talk anywhere near as evil about their Father as Michael did. For an uneducated man, he made some very intelligent business decisions. He had a dream and he saw it through. Certainly he had some major flaws....living through his children was certainly one of them. I'm not saying the guy wasn't a jerk, but the Jackson 5 and Michael himself would probably have never achieved the success they did without their Father's discipline and influence.

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