Revolution?

[TypeO]

You really think they could sign/implement a 10 page health care bill? Take the lies about "death panels", paying for "illegal aliens" and "funding abortions". They probably need a hundred pages just to verify in legalese that those things AREN'T going to be in the program! Not to mention all the things that will be in it. I'm sure they could cut some pages out, but not shorten it to 10 pages! The bills have yet to go through the conference committee process-once they have, they'll be shorter, longer, or about the same length as the bills that have come through the department committees so far. I don't care how long the final bill is, just if it's a plan that will improve cost and access for everyone.

Jeez, do you have no concept whatsoever of gross exaggeration to illustrate a point?

Do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts that Ev believes such a bill could be explained in 10 pages?

Or do you think the slight possibility could exist that he was making a statement on the problems inherent in a bill 1500 pages long?

Problems like THIS, oh, by the way...

Can any of y'all supporters of this bill explain

#1, why the following is even IN this bill? and

#2, what it has to do with healthcare?

Tax Penalties and the Health-Care Bill

Under the House legislation, taxpayers will be fined for honest mistakes.

By JAMES M. PEASLEE

FULL STORY

Two tax provisions in the health-care bill voted on by the House Ways and Means Committee earlier this summer have gained significant attention. One would impose a surtax on high-income earners. The other would force individuals (or their employers) who do not have approved health-insurance plans to pay a tax penalty. But there are other "revenue provisions" in the bill that also deserve a close look.

One would change the law to mandate that the Internal Revenue Service slap penalties on honest but errant taxpayers.

Under current law, taxpayers who lose an argument with the IRS can generally avoid penalties by showing they tried in good faith to comply with the tax law. In a broad range of circumstances, the health-care bill would change the law to impose strict liability penalties for income-tax underpayments, meaning that taxpayers will no longer have the luxury of making an honest mistake. The ability of even the IRS to waive penalties in sympathetic cases would be sharply curtailed.

The proposed changes in penalty rules have largely escaped notice because they are buried in a part of the bill that purports to deal with abusive tax shelters. They are barely mentioned in the Ways and Means Committee summary. Their inclusion in the bill underscores the need to read it closely. If anyone had doubts about the value of loading the text of the bill into a wheelbarrow and bringing it to the beach this August, the proposed changes to tax penalties should dispel them.

Recent experience shows that Congress needs to be careful about imposing no-fault penalties. In 2004, Congress adopted very large automatic penalties for failures of taxpayers to attach a tax-shelter reporting form to their tax returns. While penalties make sense where a taxpayer deliberately fails to file a return, the approach here was too unforgiving.

The normal ability of the IRS to waive penalties was taken away. Predictably, the result was some taxpayers getting hit with penalties they didn't deserve.

Last June, the Small Business Council of America sent some compelling tales of woe to Congress, including one in which a 72-year-old owner of a coin operated car wash set up retirement plans for his seven employees and got socked for his good deed with a $900,000 penalty for not reporting the plans properly. The company and its owner are now headed for bankruptcy. In another case, a penalty of $100,000 each was imposed on the six minor children of an owner of a small business in Utah for not filing the right tax forms.

THIS from the same administration that dismissed Timothy Geightner's repeated tax mistakes.

If the (supposedly) most brilliant mind in the field of taxes and finance can make mistakes on his taxes, why are average Americans who couldn't possibly be as knowledgeable as him be held to such an unyielding measure?

And again, what the fuck is it doing in a HEALTHCARE bill?

But no, all you supporters say we should shut the fuck up and give this administration a chance.

Yeah, well fuck that, because every single day that passes reveals more and more that this administration is more adamantly bent on deception and misinformation than ANY previous administration, to include the despised Bush-Cheney they replaced.

Y'all keep demonizing the insurance industry, how they make healthcare decisions based on money - what the fuck do you think government will base their decisions on?

Nothing will change other than who ends up with the money.

In an almost surreal moment of Zen, DNC Chairman Howard Dean actually told the truth when asked why Tort Reform hadn't been addressed in the bill when he said they didn't want to take on (read: upset, offend, lose support from) trial lawyers.

“This is the answer from a doctor and a politician,” said Dean. “Here is why tort reform is not in the bill. When you go to pass a really enormous bill like that the more stuff you put in, the more enemies you make, right? And the reason why tort reform is not in the bill is because the people who wrote it did not want to take on the trial lawyers in addition to everybody else they were taking on, and that is the plain and simple truth. Now, that’s the truth.”

So, they avoid taking on trial lawyers, though tort reform would be a huge benefit in REDUCING healthcare costs, but they DO include penalties for honest mistakes by American tax payers.

Is that soaking in yet?

Instead of taking measures to REDUCE costs associated with healthcare (a Republican initiative, BTW), this administration has chosen to ignore tort reform and instead hide measures within the bill that generate more ways to fund their expansive and wasteful plan.

Still don't get it?

In simple terms, they don't want to lose the financial support of trial lawyers, who make big money suing doctors, pharmaceutical companies, etc., but they are more than willing to add legislation to slap you, me or any other tax-paying American with crippling penalties for making an honest mistake on our taxes.

An obvious side-effect of this legislation is tax-preparers will be even more conservative in the filing of returns for tax-payers, resulting in lower refunds to tax-payers, so as not to risk incurring said penalties.

Lower refunds = more tax money retained by the government.

How can anyone claim this administration is acting in the country's best interests?

They are acting in their political party's interests, establishing a power base from which to secure continued control of our country's leadership.

Welcome to the new plantation!

Massa takes GOOD care of us, don't cost us a thang to get doctored up!

Jus' don't make no mistakes givin' yo money to massa.

Massa don't PLAY 'bout his money.

Cue cries of "racist" in 3... 2... 1...

[Evster2012]

If you want to see every blade of grass, and a smaller brush, you can't do it in 10 pages!

And the point of a plan that includes a Public OPTION is to give people MORE choices than they have now ("America=Freedom Freedom=Choice Choice=Options").

Can we settle around 500?

My point was that many of the people voting on this are so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of it that they're probably not reading or understanding it with complete comprehension. A lot can be buried amidst all the jargon. I'd like to see something we the people can all understand, and know the pros and cons of. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[cryingbluerain]

Amen. Under the current system you can change your insurance agent, thanks to free market competition. What

happens when "public option" becomes the only option? Rationed care, which, by the way, illegals will receive by virtue of the fact no immigration status checks are required at any time during applicant screening process.

But right now insurance ecompanies cannot cross state lines which would lead to greater competition. But we know that Obama is not interested in private competition. What Obama seeks (and looks like he will force it on us) is competition like HE sees it. He sees the Post Office competing against FedEX and UPS, and losing. So, he wants the Public Option to compete against all else, so the Public Option will lose? No, this time he will want the Public option to WIN and SQUASH the competition, since the competition is BIG, BAD Insurance companies that make profit..

[TypeO]

But right now insurance ecompanies cannot cross state lines which would lead to greater competition. But we know that Obama is not interested in private competition. What Obama seeks (and looks like he will force it on us) is competition like HE sees it. He sees the Post Office competing against FedEX and UPS, and losing. So, he wants the Public Option to compete against all else, so the Public Option will lose? No, this time he will want the Public option to WIN and SQUASH the competition, since the competition is BIG, BAD Insurance companies that make profit..

The simple explanation is government doesn't have to operate at a profit, whereas private insurance must.

They can be highly inefficient, operating at a net loss as long as it takes to squeeze out private competition.

How long can insurance companies hang when their competition isn't constrained by that whole efficiency/profit thing?

[TypeO]

But right now insurance ecompanies cannot cross state lines which would lead to greater competition. But we know that Obama is not interested in private competition. What Obama seeks (and looks like he will force it on us) is competition like HE sees it. He sees the Post Office competing against FedEX and UPS, and losing. So, he wants the Public Option to compete against all else, so the Public Option will lose? No, this time he will want the Public option to WIN and SQUASH the competition, since the competition is BIG, BAD Insurance companies that make profit..

oops - double postification

Edited August 31, 2009 by TypeO

[TypeO]

I keep noticing all the comments about how everyone in the UK loves the NHS and are so satisfied with it.

That's great, but I don't think it's relevant to the Obamacare proposal because, unless I'm mistaken, the NHS has been around for something like 60 years, in which case people 60 and under haven't known anything OTHER than NHS.

Pretty hard to make a realistic comparison when you've only had the one system all your life.

Kinda like the old joke about the city horse who met the country horse loaded down with hundreds of pounds of supplies.

City horse said, "WOW, that's quite a load you have there!"

Country horse replied, "WHAT load?"

If you've never known an alternative, you have no reference point from which to offer a valid critique.

So describing how thrilled people from the UK are with NHS is pretty pointless.

[Evster2012]

The buzz on the hill is that public option will likely be tabled in the coming week. If (and I'm just saying "IF") the public option is off the table, does it change things for those of you in support of the initiative?

[BIGDAN]

I keep noticing all the comments about how everyone in the UK loves the NHS and are so satisfied with it.

That's great, but I don't think it's relevant to the Obamacare proposal because, unless I'm mistaken, the NHS has been around for something like 60 years, in which case people 60 and under haven't known anything OTHER than NHS.

Pretty hard to make a realistic comparison when you've only had the one system all your life.

Kinda like the old joke about the city horse who met the country horse loaded down with hundreds of pounds of supplies.

City horse said, "WOW, that's quite a load you have there!"

Country horse replied, "WHAT load?"

If you've never known an alternative, you have no reference point from which to offer a valid critique.

So describing how thrilled people from the UK are with NHS is pretty pointless.

Hi TypeO,

As a "pretty pointless" kinda guy from England that has never known anything other than the NHS, and also "One" that has a "Brain" and who can "Reason" with it, i can assure you that in a System where everyone who works pays in a premium of about 5% of there wages and their Employer pays an additional 12.8%, giving a total of 17.8% of income, and a System that also lets you join BUPA (and other health Care Plans) so you can queue jump, is a much better System than one that Lets People that Cant Afford to Pay, "Suffer", like the one in your Country.

England. 1. USA. 0.

England, the Home of Modern Civilisation.

And just because i havent lived under a system like yours does not mean that i dont see all the Ill's of that System, an i only too well see your Ill's.

http://www.hmrc.gov....s/2008/ca41.pdf

When president Kennedy said,

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

he was quite right, but what he ommited to say was this,

"But also Ask what your country can do for you, when you cannot do it for yourself."

A Civilised Society owes a Debt of Gratitude to its People who have made it Civilised, and what Greater way to pay that debt back than to offer Free Health Care?

As for your last point, my "reference point from which to offer a valid critique" is based on my observations and account of people that i Know and who have recieved your Health(dont) Care, is that a "Valid" enough "Critique" for you?

For what i have seen and heard on this forum and elsewhere, there are far too many "Greedy Uncareing Bastard Types" living in America for its Own Good. If American's are far more interested in Careing for the Third Worlds Health than in their own Peoples Health then it Seriously Needs to Rethink Itself.

Just my honest opinion, no offence to the Good people of America, but your Government/Country SUCKS.

Regards, Danny

Edited September 4, 2009 by BIGDAN

[BIGDAN]

Change country to government and the real meaning of his statement is revealed.

Hi Steve,

When president Kennedy said,

"Ask not what your Government can do for you, but what you can do for your Government"

he was quite right, but what he ommited to say was this,

"But also Ask what your Government can do for you, when you cannot do it for yourself."

I see what you mean Steve, Regards, Danny

[MisterMcLov1n]

Indoctrinate? Brainwash? I doubt it. But I would much rather Obama push for education changes through the legislative system than through a bunch of "suggestions" that none of those kids will really listen to.

[Electrophile]

Indoctrinate? Brainwash? I doubt it. But I would much rather Obama push for education changes through the legislative system than through a bunch of "suggestions" that none of those kids will really listen to.

I agree. But the very idea that we shouldn't allow the President to talk to school kids about staying in school and persevering and making something of themselves because some moron thinks it's "indoctrinating" them is unconscionable. Oh yeah, how dare the President tell school kids to value education. The bastard.

[TypeO]

Hi TypeO,

As a "pretty pointless" kinda guy from England that has never known anything other than the NHS, and also "One" that has a "Brain" and who can "Reason" with it, i can assure you that in a System where everyone who works pays in a premium of about 5% of there wages and their Employer pays an additional 12.8%, giving a total of 17.8% of income, and a System that also lets you join BUPA (and other health Care Plans) so you can queue jump, is a much better System than one that Lets People that Cant Afford to Pay, "Suffer", like the one in your Country.

England. 1. USA. 0.

England, the Home of Modern Civilisation.

And just because i havent lived under a system like yours does not mean that i dont see all the Ill's of that System, an i only too well see your Ill's.

BIGDAN -

If you'll read my post carefully, it isn't directed AT people from the UK.

The comments I referred to were people from America holding up the UK as an example.

If that wasn't as clear as I intended, my bad.

I've never been to the UK, or experienced care from NHS, and my post didn't criticize NHS in any way.

My use of the word "pointless" wasn't directed at you or anyone from the UK, it was directed at the tactic of pointing to the UK as an example.

As for your last point, my "reference point from which to offer a valid critique" is based on my observations and account of people that i Know and who have recieved your Health(dont) Care, is that a "Valid" enough "Critique" for you?

Honestly, no.

That is, unless you know thousands and thousands of people from which to base a realistic cross-section representative of the population.

For every person you know who has received our "health(don't) care", I am quite comfortable in assuring you I know 5 who are absolutely satisfied with the care they have received and continue to receive.

Again, I meant no offense to you or any other citizen of the UK, as my remarks weren't directed at you personally, but rather at the faulty logic that because people from the UK are satisfied with NHS, America would be as well.

It's simply not a valid argument, for the very reasons I stated.

[Electrophile]

Yes I know this is a link to DailyKos, but it has the video I need to prove a point I'm making. Here's George H.W. Bush giving a speech/talk meant to be shown to school kids.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/9/3/776393/-Another-wingnut-meme-goes-down-the-drain

My God, look at that indoctrination and brainwashing. How dare he. HOW DARE HE.

[TypeO]

This video was shown to first graders in an American public school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqcPA1ysSbw

Too bad they don't follow it up with Penn Jillette...

[ZPN]

I agree. But the very idea that we shouldn't allow the President to talk to school kids about staying in school and persevering and making something of themselves because some moron thinks it's "indoctrinating" them is unconscionable. Oh yeah, how dare the President tell school kids to value education. The bastard.

Yeah, I said I wasn't going to talk politics on this forum anymore, but I've been hearing this stuff all day about Obama talking to the school kids. A school superintendent in our state was on the radio earlier today. He said due to parent feedback, they are not going to watch it live, they're taping it and if teachers want to show it on a later date they can, and parents who don't want their kids to watch it can have their kids "opt out". I just can't believe it. I'm sure no one "opted out" when other Presidents did this (Bush 1 & Reagan did). Or when Bush 2 visited schools. Even though I'm liberal, if I had kids in the public schools, I would NOT have them opt out of a Republican President telling them to study etc. People are saying it's communist indoctrination! All the rhetoric against Obama, whom I view as very similar to former Pres Clinton, is so...I don't know what to say-I feel like I've been dropped on another planet! And the right wingers on tv/radio creating hysteria about socialism,communism, that Obama's going to take their guns; Michelle Bachman (she's from my state, but don't blame me) talking about slitting her wrists; people going to town hall meetings with guns...I'm really afraid something awful is going to happen, and I don't know what to do. I've always been for nonviolence, but I feel like I'm stuck watching while the complete lunatics take over...I'm freaked out, guys. I know these people are a minority, but it doesn't take many, to do a lot of harm.

And now Public Option's probably dead, because lies that were knowingly told about it by Palin, people in the media, members of Congress and the insurance industry, scared people.

I don't mind people having different points of view, when they are based on facts

and not simply codewords like socialist and communist. Someone at a town meeting told me England isn't a Democracy, it's a MONARCHY. Yes, they have a figurehead Queen, but they VOTE for Prime Minister & Parliament, last I heard. And I saw I guy on tv who said he read the "USS Constitution" (that's a SHIP-if you don't know the NAME of the document, I doubt you read it) 3 times, and he went on to say something about pursuing Communism like Hitler did. He got 2 scary words in, but I guess it doesn't matter that what he said had nothing to do with reality: HITLER WAS A FASCIST, NOT A COMMUNIST! AAAARRRRRGGGHHHH!

I wish I had relatives in Canada. Or in that dictatorship-ENGLAND.

Edited September 4, 2009 by ZeppyNetters

[Evster2012]

So, if the Public Option to healthcare is dropped during the same week Obama does this kids thing....

[Electrophile]

Yeah, I said I wasn't going to talk politics on this forum anymore, but I've been hearing this stuff all day about Obama talking to the school kids. A school superintendent in our state was on the radio earlier today. He said due to parent feedback, they are not going to watch it live, they're taping it and if teachers want to show it on a later date they can, and parents who don't want their kids to watch it can have their kids "opt out". I just can't believe it. I'm sure no one "opted out" when other Presidents did this (Bush 1 & Reagan did). Or when Bush 2 visited schools. Even though I'm liberal, if I had kids in the public schools, I would NOT have them opt out of a Republican President telling them to study etc. People are saying it's communist indoctrination! All the rhetoric against Obama, whom I view as very similar to former Pres Clinton, is so...I don't know what to say-I feel like I've been dropped on another planet! And the right wingers on tv/radio creating hysteria about socialism,communism, that Obama's going to take their guns; Michelle Bachman (she's from my state, but don't blame me) talking about slitting her wrists; people going to town hall meetings with guns...I'm really afraid something awful is going to happen, and I don't know what to do. I've always been for nonviolence, but I feel like I'm stuck watching while the complete lunatics take over...I'm freaked out, guys. I know these people are a minority, but it doesn't take many, to do a lot of harm.

The majority of Republicans/conservatives are sane, rational people. They don't think Obama is a Marxist/Communist/Socialist/secrit muslin turrist/foreign national/fascist/elitist/fill-in-the-blank. They don't think Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are particularly smart.

These people however, don't get airtime on TV or radio, they aren't interviewed and no one cares to listen to what they have to say. Wanna know why? They aren't frothing at the mouth, they aren't batshit insane and their fears, prejudices and stereotypes can't be exploited by weak-willed, small-brained and intellectually dishonest people.

That is the crux of the problem. Look at the people that get thrown on TV to talk about how Obama is a Communist who wants to brainwash our people into having gay sex abortions on Ramadan. These are people who have less teeth than toes, are mostly Bible-thumpers who live in rural areas and are mostly Southern whites. When Nixon took on the "Southern Strategy" in 1968, the GOP made the conscious decision to let the social conservative wing take over and the Goldwater/Rockefeller Republicans were damn near eliminated completely. We need those people back to balance out the Democrats. You can't have one-party rule but if the GOP keeps this up, that's what we're going to get. Daily, they alienate Moderates and Independents. Daily, they show themselves to be the party of lunacy, lies and scare tactics a child could debunk.

So no, I'm NOT surprised they don't think Obama should be talking to kids about education. Education is like kryptonite to these neocon shitheads.

[Nathan]

This video was shown to first graders in an American public school:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=wqcPA1ysSbw

I hate to say it, guys, but I'm with Steve on this one (I know... shocking... I think I felt an Earthquake when I typed that... )...

That video is, IMO, absolutely fine until the last part...

I pledge to be a servant to our President

This is a mistake. I don't care if the President is Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Green, Independent... shit, I don't care if the President made up his own party. Never pledge to be a servant to a ruler. Any ruler.

While I accept the hypocrisy of the founding of our country (Slave owners screaming that all men are created equal... people escaping religious prosecution to prosecute other religions... and so on...), we revolted against the very idea of being a servant to a ruler. Making that last pledge is, quite frankly, spitting on the whole reason we revolted in the first place. It's spitting on the very idea of our country.

The President should be our servant. We should not be the President's servant. That is why we elect our ruling body... to serve us. If we turn it the other way around, we end up one step back to a monarchy.

And I know... I know... every single Liberal here will vehemently disagree. But if you look at why we revolted, what we revolted against, and what the King was asking from us (basically, our servitude), you'll see that what I've said is true.

Pledging to support our President is fine. In fact, I'd say that's a good thing (I'm not talking about Obama specifically, but any President... though I admit that I won't because, it this point, I'm pretty much of the opinion that American politics is fucked and I really don't want to take part in its continual fucking of the American public... and all sides are guilty of it, not just one side). But pledging to be a servant of the President is a bad, bad, bad idea and should not be promoted by The Obama Administration.

Now, I doubt the ultimate goal is absolute indoctrination (because unlike Steve and TypeO, I have yet to believe Obama is truly that evil... I'm waiting for his term to finish before I pass judgment on him). However, it will certainly come across that way to anyone and everyone who understand the point of America (both Conservatives and Liberals).

Edited September 4, 2009 by Nathan

[Evster2012]

Truly shocked no one's addressed my question of whether Public Option is off the table, would it change your thinking!

[Nathan]

Truly shocked no one's addressed my question of whether Public Option is off the table, would it change your thinking!

I honestly don't think it's true reform without the public option, so...

[Evster2012]

What do you mean?

What I mean is, many people who are pro-Obama healthcare reform have mentioned Public Option as critical to the initiative. I was wondering if these people would feel the same if Public Option were squashed, because there are rumblings in Washington that this might actually be a concession.

[ZPN]

So you believe Public Option is dead in part because of Sarah Palin? Really? Are you kidding me?! It may have more to do with the trillion dollar price tag and mid-term elections around the corner.

I think she was the one who came up with the idea that there would be "death panels"

with Public Option.

[ZPN]

I hate to say it, guys, but I'm with Steve on this one (I know... shocking... I think I felt an Earthquake when I typed that... )...

That video is, IMO, absolutely fine until the last part...

This is a mistake. I don't care if the President is Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Green, Independent... shit, I don't care if the President made up his own party. Never pledge to be a servant to a ruler. Any ruler.

While I accept the hypocrisy of the founding of our country (Slave owners screaming that all men are created equal... people escaping religious prosecution to prosecute other religions... and so on...), we revolted against the very idea of being a servant to a ruler. Making that last pledge is, quite frankly, spitting on the whole reason we revolted in the first place. It's spitting on the very idea of our country.

The President should be our servant. We should not be the President's servant. That is why we elect our ruling body... to serve us. If we turn it the other way around, we end up one step back to a monarchy.

And I know... I know... every single Liberal here will vehemently disagree. But if you look at why we revolted, what we revolted against, and what the King was asking from us (basically, our servitude), you'll see that what I've said is true.

Pledging to support our President is fine. In fact, I'd say that's a good thing (I'm not talking about Obama specifically, but any President... though I admit that I won't because, it this point, I'm pretty much of the opinion that American politics is fucked and I really don't want to take part in its continual fucking of the American public... and all sides are guilty of it, not just one side). But pledging to be a servant of the President is a bad, bad, bad idea and should not be promoted by The Obama Administration.

Now, I doubt the ultimate goal is absolute indoctrination (because unlike Steve and TypeO, I have yet to believe Obama is truly that evil... I'm waiting for his term to finish before I pass judgment on him). However, it will certainly come across that way to anyone and everyone who understand the point of America (both Conservatives and Liberals).

No, not every single liberal will vehemently disagree! I don't know why they said serve the President. In general I found the whole thing annoying. Who was it, Demi? Who pledged SHE was going to save a million people from slavery, or something. And her what's his name boyfriend was going to portray himself with dignity? Unfortunately, when I turn on the tv guide channel to see what's on, on the RARE occasion they're not running something about MJ, they're playing Punked. Am I the only one who thinks it's juvenile & obnoxious? Not dignified, anyway. Yes, I may be a stick in the mud when it comes to pranks-I don't think embarassing or freaking people out is funny.

BTW, when Senator Kennedy died, I said his death would only get a tiny fraction of the air time Michael Jackson's has gotten. Some people disagreed. MSNBC finished airing Kennedy programming several days ago (except to mention the memoir that's coming out soon), while TV Guide is still running Michael Jackson stuff almost all the time.

Is it me, or is it really creepy that he's been dead over 2 months and they just had an open casket thing & buried him today?

Sorry, I got off topic. So unlike me (jk:)!

Edited September 4, 2009 by ZeppyNetters

[ZPN]

So, if the Public Option to healthcare is dropped during the same week Obama does this kids thing....

Now it's me who must be sleepy-I didn't follow you. Please clarify-thanks.

[ZPN]

Hi TypeO,

As a "pretty pointless" kinda guy from England that has never known anything other than the NHS, and also "One" that has a "Brain" and who can "Reason" with it, i can assure you that in a System where everyone who works pays in a premium of about 5% of there wages and their Employer pays an additional 12.8%, giving a total of 17.8% of income, and a System that also lets you join BUPA (and other health Care Plans) so you can queue jump, is a much better System than one that Lets People that Cant Afford to Pay, "Suffer", like the one in your Country.

England. 1. USA. 0.

England, the Home of Modern Civilisation.

And just because i havent lived under a system like yours does not mean that i dont see all the Ill's of that System, an i only too well see your Ill's.

http://www.hmrc.gov....s/2008/ca41.pdf

When president Kennedy said,

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

he was quite right, but what he ommited to say was this,

"But also Ask what your country can do for you, when you cannot do it for yourself."

A Civilised Society owes a Debt of Gratitude to its People who have made it Civilised, and what Greater way to pay that debt back than to offer Free Health Care?

As for your last point, my "reference point from which to offer a valid critique" is based on my observations and account of people that i Know and who have recieved your Health(dont) Care, is that a "Valid" enough "Critique" for you?

For what i have seen and heard on this forum and elsewhere, there are far too many "Greedy Uncareing Bastard Types" living in America for its Own Good. If American's are far more interested in Careing for the Third Worlds Health than in their own Peoples Health then it Seriously Needs to Rethink Itself.

Just my honest opinion, no offence to the Good people of America, but your Government/Country SUCKS.

Regards, Danny

Thank you.