Revolution?

[Evster2012]

Those of us who are adults occasionally think more in terms of practical realities such as food and shelter.

And nationalized health care will provide us with free meals and housing? Where do I sign up? Maybe a couple of those thousands of pages were stuck together.

[longdistancewinner]

An interesting article by the Washington Post.

In Defense of Britain's Health System

LONDON -- When Britain's National Health Service (NHS) was created in 1948, its founder, the charismatic politician Aneurin Bevan, observed that it was "in place of fear." More than 60 years later, it is fear that dominates the discussion of the NHS in the U.S. debate about health-care reform.

The myth-making ranges from the misleading to the mendacious to the downright ludicrous. Bizarre allegations of "death panels" denying care to the elderly, doctors unable to make medical decisions and "socialized medicine" fill newspapers, airwaves and the blogosphere. These are, without exception, categorically untrue. When it comes to claims about the health of professor Stephen Hawking, not only have the arguments been distasteful, but those proposing them have been proved embarrassingly wrong.

Here are a few things Americans should know about the NHS:

Every Briton is registered with his or her own family doctor, whom they can see when they need -- without paying a fee. These doctors are independent contractors to the health service and are recognized and rewarded for quality in their compensation -- so they can focus on what works, not just what pays. Expanding on the facilities that are already in place, by next year every community in England will have a physician's office open from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. every day of the year, and you can simply walk in and see a doctor, for free, regardless of whether you are registered.

In the unfortunate instance that a patient is diagnosed with a dire disease, such as cancer, it often takes only a week or two for a patient to be seen by all the right specialists, complete all the required diagnostic tests and be ready for surgery or other interventions. This rivals the best care in the United States or anywhere else in the world.

Under our NHS constitution, patients have a legal right to choice of provider. That means any provider -- public, private or not-for-profit. By April 2010 our NHS will be the first health system in the world to systematically measure and openly publish the quality of care achieved by every clinical department in every hospital. It means patients will be able to make meaningful, informed choices on what is best for them and their family. Some of this data is already published.

Many of the mischief-making rumors have focused on our National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, the clinically led body, independent of government, that gives advice on the effectiveness of drugs and treatments. Call it fiscal conservatism or old-fashioned common sense, but we think you should pay only for what works. At the same time, it should be remembered that Britain's pharmaceutical industry is second only to the United States in its innovation and the significance of its discoveries. The NHS invents and delivers pioneering treatments, from the first clinical use of MRI in the 1960s to leading developments in robotically enabled scar-free surgery today.

Standing in defense of Britain's health service does not mean that we believe it is the right prescription for the United States. It is not for us to propose the solution for America, but we hope that correcting the record on some of the facts about our NHS will help Americans evaluate the real strengths and challenges of our system, instead of focusing on the misinformation spread by fear-mongers. Indeed, none of the proposals for reform -- from President Obama or anyone else -- would create a system that resembles that in Britain. What we share across the Atlantic are a set of common values: a belief that health care transcends the narrow confines of consumerism and is a moral right to be secured for all; and fidelity to the principle that a good society brings its citizens together in common purpose, where hope can overcome fear.

Fear is the weapon of choice for opponents of reform who have no substantive alternative to offer. America spends five times the share of its national wealth on health as Singapore, and yet life expectancy in each country is roughly the same. Even allowing for other factors, it is undeniable that the way a health system is organized and operated makes a difference. Americans fear that countries such as Britain and Canada ration care -- and that such rationing could and should never be tolerated in the United States. Yet 47 million uninsured is quite an extreme form of rationing. So at this moment, the burden of proof falls upon those who oppose change -- for they stand in defense of fear.

Linkage

[Evster2012]

Look, I'm not opposed to a sound and workable national healthcare plan. I just don't like the proposed model. It's like buying a car. Yeah, I'll take the 8-speaker stereo, but I don't want the software that brakes and steers the car for me as if I'm asleep at the wheel. Sometimes you have to pitch it sideways to prevent a collision. I haven't crashed so far. I want options!

*Edit* Not in response to your post LDW. I was posting same time as you.

[Electrophile]

Don't cloud the issue with facts, longdistancewinner. The NHS is evil and if something similar is instituted here, the US will dissolve into a communist utopia that would make Lenin rise from the grave and salute.

See, because if it works in other countries it can't possibly work here.

[eternal light]

And nationalized health care will provide us with free meals and housing? Where do I sign up? Maybe a couple of those thousands of pages were stuck together.

An adult like me is able to comprehend the fact that it's all earned.

Maybe that's a difficult concept for you.

[SteveAJones]

Yet 47 million uninsured is quite an extreme form of rationing. So at this moment, the burden of proof falls upon those who oppose change -- for they stand in defense of fear.

Oh, the Obama "change" mantra again. Funny, I would think the burden of proof falls upon the proponents of the change. Put another way, it's like saying the customer has

to fully explain to the merchant why they refuse to buy what they aren't interested in.

Nice spin on "47 million uninsured". Many elect not to have coverage, and that is their

right (unless the socialists prevail).

[eternal light]

Yet the actual demand for health care remains constant and drives up costs if not met on a practical level.

[Deborah J]

Hello Everyone!

I do not want to argue this. I am only sharing as knowledge is powerful, We all have access to the information. I think that we have enough smart people and that if they apply themselves to what is the right thing to do we will have a better updated health care system.

David Axelrod

Senior Adviser to the President

We launched www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck this week to knock down the rumors and lies that are floating around the internet. You can find the information below, and much more, there. For example, we've just added a video of Nancy-Ann DeParle from our Health Reform Office tackling a viral email head on. Check it out:

8 ways reform provides security and stability to those with or without coverage

Ends Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions: Insurance companies will be prohibited from refusing you coverage because of your medical history.

Ends Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses, Deductibles or Co-Pays: Insurance companies will have to abide by yearly caps on how much they can charge for out-of-pocket expenses.

Ends Cost-Sharing for Preventive Care: Insurance companies must fully cover, without charge, regular checkups and tests that help you prevent illness, such as mammograms or eye and foot exams for diabetics.

Ends Dropping of Coverage for Seriously Ill: Insurance companies will be prohibited from dropping or watering down insurance coverage for those who become seriously ill.

Ends Gender Discrimination: Insurance companies will be prohibited from charging you more because of your gender.

Ends Annual or Lifetime Caps on Coverage: Insurance companies will be prevented from placing annual or lifetime caps on the coverage you receive.

Extends Coverage for Young Adults: Children would continue to be eligible for family coverage through the age of 26.

Guarantees Insurance Renewal: Insurance companies will be required to renew any policy as long as the policyholder pays their premium in full. Insurance companies won't be allowed to refuse renewal because someone became sick.

Learn more and get details: http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/health-insurance...er-protections/

8 common myths about health insurance reform

Reform will stop "rationing" - not increase it: It’s a myth that reform will mean a "government takeover" of health care or lead to "rationing." To the contrary, reform will forbid many forms of rationing that are currently being used by insurance companies.

We can’t afford reform: It's the status quo we can't afford. It’s a myth that reform will bust the budget. To the contrary, the President has identified ways to pay for the vast majority of the up-front costs by cutting waste, fraud, and abuse within existing government health programs; ending big subsidies to insurance companies; and increasing efficiency with such steps as coordinating care and streamlining paperwork. In the long term, reform can help bring down costs that will otherwise lead to a fiscal crisis.

Reform would encourage "euthanasia": It does not. It’s a malicious myth that reform would encourage or even require euthanasia for seniors. For seniors who want to consult with their family and physicians about end-of life decisions, reform will help to cover these voluntary, private consultations for those who want help with these personal and difficult family decisions.

Vets' health care is safe and sound: It’s a myth that health insurance reform will affect veterans' access to the care they get now. To the contrary, the President's budget significantly expands coverage under the VA, extending care to 500,000 more veterans who were previously excluded. The VA Healthcare system will continue to be available for all eligible veterans.

Reform will benefit small business - not burden it: It’s a myth that health insurance reform will hurt small businesses. To the contrary, reform will ease the burdens on small businesses, provide tax credits to help them pay for employee coverage and help level the playing field with big firms who pay much less to cover their employees on average.

Your Medicare is safe, and stronger with reform: It’s myth that Health Insurance Reform would be financed by cutting Medicare benefits. To the contrary, reform will improve the long-term financial health of Medicare, ensure better coordination, eliminate waste and unnecessary subsidies to insurance companies, and help to close the Medicare "doughnut" hole to make prescription drugs more affordable for seniors.

You can keep your own insurance: It’s myth that reform will force you out of your current insurance plan or force you to change doctors. To the contrary, reform will expand your choices, not eliminate them.

No, government will not do anything with your bank account: It is an absurd myth that government will be in charge of your bank accounts. Health insurance reform will simplify administration, making it easier and more convenient for you to pay bills in a method that you choose. Just like paying a phone bill or a utility bill, you can pay by traditional check, or by a direct electronic payment. And forms will be standardized so they will be easier to understand. The choice is up to you – and the same rules of privacy will apply as they do for all other electronic payments that people make.

Learn more and get details:

http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck

http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck/faq

8 Reasons We Need Health Insurance Reform Now

Coverage Denied to Millions: A recent national survey estimated that 12.6 million non-elderly adults – 36 percent of those who tried to purchase health insurance directly from an insurance company in the individual insurance market – were in fact discriminated against because of a pre-existing condition in the previous three years or dropped from coverage when they became seriously ill. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/denied...rage/index.html

Less Care for More Costs: With each passing year, Americans are paying more for health care coverage. Employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have nearly doubled since 2000, a rate three times faster than wages. In 2008, the average premium for a family plan purchased through an employer was $12,680, nearly the annual earnings of a full-time minimum wage job. Americans pay more than ever for health insurance, but get less coverage. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/hiddencosts/index.html

Roadblocks to Care for Women: Women’s reproductive health requires more regular contact with health care providers, including yearly pap smears, mammograms, and obstetric care. Women are also more likely to report fair or poor health than men (9.5% versus 9.0%). While rates of chronic conditions such as diabetes and high blood pressure are similar to men, women are twice as likely to suffer from headaches and are more likely to experience joint, back or neck pain. These chronic conditions often require regular and frequent treatment and follow-up care. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/women/index.html

Hard Times in the Heartland: Throughout rural America, there are nearly 50 million people who face challenges in accessing health care. The past several decades have consistently shown higher rates of poverty, mortality, uninsurance, and limited access to a primary health care provider in rural areas. With the recent economic downturn, there is potential for an increase in many of the health disparities and access concerns that are already elevated in rural communities. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/hardtimes

Small Businesses Struggle to Provide Health Coverage: Nearly one-third of the uninsured – 13 million people – are employees of firms with less than 100 workers. From 2000 to 2007, the proportion of non-elderly Americans covered by employer-based health insurance fell from 66% to 61%. Much of this decline stems from small business. The percentage of small businesses offering coverage dropped from 68% to 59%, while large firms held stable at 99%. About a third of such workers in firms with fewer than 50 employees obtain insurance through a spouse. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/helpbottomline

The Tragedies are Personal: Half of all personal bankruptcies are at least partly the result of medical expenses. The typical elderly couple may have to save nearly $300,000 to pay for health costs not covered by Medicare alone. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/inaction

Diminishing Access to Care: From 2000 to 2007, the proportion of non-elderly Americans covered by employer-based health insurance fell from 66% to 61%. An estimated 87 million people - one in every three Americans under the age of 65 - were uninsured at some point in 2007 and 2008. More than 80% of the uninsured are in working families. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/inacti...hing/index.html

The Trends are Troubling: Without reform, health care costs will continue to skyrocket unabated, putting unbearable strain on families, businesses, and state and federal government budgets. Perhaps the most visible sign of the need for health care reform is the 46 million Americans currently without health insurance - projections suggest that this number will rise to about 72 million in 2040 in the absence of reform. Learn more: http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/assets/documents...Care_Report.pdf

better health care system as the one we have now neeeds some updating....

[longdistancewinner]

Don't cloud the issue with facts, longdistancewinner. The NHS is evil and if something similar is instituted here, the US will dissolve into a communist utopia that would make Lenin rise from the grave and salute.

See, because if it works in other countries it can't possibly work here.

The line that jumped right out for me was, "... the burden of proof falls upon those who oppose change -- for they stand in defense of fear."

All the talk of socialism and communism and all that shit is so absurd that you have to laugh. These people who are so vehemently against a public health care system, are, ultimately, scared. They'd rather let 45 million people go without healthcare than be deemed as 'socialist'. 45 million in the UK is two thirds of our population. So narrow-minded are they, that they don't even want to think of it as an option.

[SteveAJones]

See, because if it works in other countries it can't possibly work here.

So you are suggesting all countries are the same? If the advantages of nationalized healthcare for America were so painfully obvious then don't you think this point of view would be more easily proven, and change more readily accepted? But it isn't the case

because the advantages do not outweigh the disadvantages. The free market has spoken.

[Evster2012]

An adult like me is able to comprehend the fact that it's all earned.

Maybe that's a difficult concept for you.

Your snottiness is clear evidence of your maturity. I guess I'm a 43 year-old child.

Where have I opposed heathcare?

Maybe directing your responses to things someone actually said, while you're quoting them, is a difficult concept for you. Hmm?

Maybe you're just too adult for us common citizens.

[SteveAJones]

8 ways reform provides security and stability to those with or without coverage

Security and stability in the first sentence! Pure propoganda.

Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither.

[Deborah J]

Security and stability in the first sentence! Pure propoganda.

Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither.

Steve, I respect your opinion as well as everyone else's. We all make choices based on the decisions we have made or things that happen to us for reasons we can't understand. I think that all people who contribute to society, (not lazy,freeloaders) should have the choice. Whether you are the person who rides the back of a garbage truck to the wealthiest business person. The current system needs overhauling. Military should come home to the best hospitals and help for any mental problems as well. I wonder how most of them fill about this?

No one should go bankrupt because one of their family members faces trauma or a horrible desease. None of us have the answers to all of this.

We are privledged to be able to debate the issues. I think that if both sides get together- and people voice their opinion in a professional manner we might end up with a resolution that is best for everyone. Maybe I am optomistic, but I can hope....what's the other choice?

[BIGDAN]

SO SORRY LIZ.

[MisterMcLov1n]

So you are suggesting all countries are the same? If the advantages of nationalized healthcare for America were so painfully obvious then don't you think this point of view would be more easily proven, and change more readily accepted? But it isn't the case

because the advantages do not outweigh the disadvantages. The free market has spoken.

Not so much that, but there are lots people who feel their whole way of life is being threatened by change/Non-privatized healthcare. They're called "conservatives" for a reason.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.

Biggest load of total bollocks i've ever seen posted on this forum ever, and i've posted enough of it myself. Where do you get your information from? Cloud Cuckoo land, have you ever used the NHS? No, i didnt think so, then dont start telling people what you dont know, just keep to the facts and let the people who do know do the talking, thats why i've stayed out of this argument so far, because i know nothing of the workings of the USA, but as far as the NHS is concerned, as a patient i'm a fucking expert. Nuff said.

American GIs used it after WW2, so they didnt have to pay for the birth/delivery of their children.

Didnt hear the Scotts disolving it when they got their Independence.

Nor the Welsh, they even give out Free Prescriptions.

Irish have to pay though, Twats.

Half the world want to live in the Uk just to get Good, Free, Health Care.

Any Country that doesnt have a Free NHS system is a Third World Country as far as i'm concerned, why countries like the US cant/wont afford to have a Decent Free Health Care System is beyond me, the lot of you who blabber on about the good old USA should have a really good look at the way you are portraying your country right now, Mean-Tight-NonCareing-MoneyOriented-Selfish-Bastards.

You're not a society or a community, you're a collection of people who only care about yourselves, Thatcher tried to get us to behave like that in the 80s and thank the Lord it didnt work, i would like to give any of you that care to listen some good advice, Emigrate the the UK, you know it makes sense, the Home Of Modern Civilisation. I rest my case.

Regards, Danny

PS, Scotch and Yanks in one night, Priceless, anybody else before i retire to bed?

Dan, you must not quite understand internet sarcasm. She was kidding.

[BIGDAN]

Not so much that, but there are lots people who feel their whole way of life is being threatened by change/Non-privatized healthcare. They're called "conservatives" for a reason.

Dan, you must not quite understand internet sarcasm. She was kidding.

Fuck me so she was, i'm a twat then, i can edit i hope, so sorry Liz.

[longdistancewinner]

Dan, whilst I don't agree with the way you retaliated, I do feel that it is vital that NHS users do respond when such views are spoken against it. Assuming that it was Electro's reply to my article posted that caused your response; yes, she was being sarcastic. Mocking those who will say as much. Unfortunately, there are people out there that do think as much, and sadly, they won't even read/see/think of the facts before they spout off their torrent of hate.

I've been to America more times than I can count and the citizens of the country have been nothing short of welcoming and friendly to myself and my family. I have only good things to say of the country. But I will not tolerate my country being branded as 'evil' and 'Orwellian' because we have the human decency to give our citizens public health care when they need it. We do not play with their lives. I feel sad that so many in America are prepared to do, and want, that much. No one is ever asked to be brought into this world, but when they have to leave it, at least let it be with comfort and dignity.

The 'end' of America would not be to have a so-called 'socialist' heath care; it would be to let those who can't provide themselves with health care to die.

[eternal light]

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

[Evster2012]

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Um, you quoted me remember? I hadn't said a word against healthcare, but you've been quoting me in multiple threads about forklifts and heart attacks.

My own advice would be to ignore you entirely. Thanks for the suggestion. I feel better already.

[eternal light]

I remember.

Like I said, please take your own advice.

[BIGDAN]

Dan, whilst I don't agree with the way you retaliated, I do feel that it is vital that NHS users do respond when such views are spoken against it. Assuming that it was Electro's reply to my article posted that caused your response; yes, she was being sarcastic. Mocking those who will say as much. Unfortunately, there are people out there that do think as much, and sadly, they won't even read/see/think of the facts before they spout off their torrent of hate.

I've been to America more times than I can count and the citizens of the country have been nothing short of welcoming and friendly to myself and my family. I have only good things to say of the country. But I will not tolerate my country being branded as 'evil' and 'Orwellian' because we have the human decency to give our citizens public health care when they need it. We do not play with their lives. I feel sad that so many in America are prepared to do, and want, that much. No one is ever asked to be brought into this world, but when they have to leave it, at least let it be with comfort and dignity.

The 'end' of America would not be to have a so-called 'socialist' heath care; it would be to let those who can't provide themselves with health care to die.

Hi LDW,

I appologise wholeheartedly to Electrophile for my misunderstanding of her Whit, i was totaly at fault as far as she was concerned and i offer my Kind Regards to her.

As for the direction that the rest of my post went, i stand by every word, but i shall say nothing more on the subject, it is closed as far as i'm concerned.

But you never know though, we in the UK might still end up in the sad sorry state that our dear friends in the US are in now. There are many politicans that want us to move in to the World of Privatisation in everything, shame on them, the sign of a "Humanitarian Regime" must firstly be to the Health and Care of its People, and we have enough resorces to make that Health and Care, Free.

Kind Regards, Danny

[TypeO]

Hello Everyone!

I do not want to argue this. I am only sharing as knowledge is powerful, We all have access to the information. I think that we have enough smart people and that if they apply themselves to what is the right thing to do we will have a better updated health care system.

So you post the propaganda straight from the source?

I'll say it again - it's almost incomprehensible that after 8 years of "Bush's lies" the same people are so absolutely convinced that Obama (and his administration) can speak no lie.

Have you listened to these fuckers in these White House press briefings and news interviews and how doggedly they dodge questions that are repeated 4 or 5 times?

Bill Burton, White House Deputy Press Secretary

Why is it so fucking hard for these assholes to answer a direct question?

Answer: because they're lying like dogs.

Funniest part of all, there isn't even a single plan agreed upon, yet Obama is making all these assurances. Is he going by the House plan? Or one of the many Senate plans?

He hasn't even clarified which plan he's referring to when he assures us of all these claims, because they are all different.

[Evster2012]

I remember.

Like I said, please take your own advice.

Well I see you've taken once again to quoting my name with zero content, further disassociating your rails against me with anything I've actually said. Same thing year after year Honey. Well, go on then, erase your posts and say you have no idea what I'm talking about.

[eternal light]

In any case, if basic health care needs go overlooked, the costs will escalate in the long run, and insurance premiums will rise as a result.

So it is better to contain the long-term costs by meeting the basic needs quickly.

It's a simple matter of costs-benefits analysis, just basic economics.

[Rock N' Rollin' Man]