Amy Winehouse

[Hickory Man]

Big Dan, Lakey is being so much nicer to you than you deserve. Yeah, she smacked you around a little, but I sense that you knew she is one of those who has pulled herself back from the abyss, yet you made assaholic quips about using in your response to her.

Very un-cool. You are a lucky man that she's a very strong person, and obviously intelligent enough to let your comments end up in the dumper where they belong.

[eternal light]

People are afraid sometimes of being weak, so they criticize weakness in others. It is a way of distancing oneself from a perceived risk of associating with those engaged in weak behavior, to compensate for the fear of losing self-control. Until you are truly confident in your strengths, maybe it is best to avoid the temptation of being too close to that kind of weakness.

[BIGDAN]

Big Dan, Lakey is being so much nicer to you than you deserve. Yeah, she smacked you around a little, but I sense that you knew she is one of those who has pulled herself back from the abyss, yet you made assaholic quips about using in your response to her.

Very un-cool. You are a lucky man that she's a very strong person, and obviously intelligent enough to let your comments end up in the dumper where they belong.

Hi 'Hickory Man'

I could give a shit what "lakey" or you think of me or my comments, really, and i wish i could post some of the PMs that people on here have sent to me encouraging me and congratulating me on my honesty and standing up for what i and they believe in, but if i did that some smart arse would only say that i made them up so i wont.

If she has pulled herself back from the "abbys" then good for her, i would have nothing but praise for someone like that, and thats the truth. But what i have no time for is alcoholic drug abusers that havent done what you say lakey has, and i dont know for sure what agenda lakey has with me either, or if she has done what you say she has done.

Me cool, never in a million years could you call me cool, but one thing that everyone who has ever known me, fron my school days to friends on here will say is that,

i'm painfully honest,

i'm factual,

i'm always on the side of the rightious,

i'm extreamly fair to the point of being walked upon,

i hate and have no time for thieves and abusers which go hand in hand in my dealings with both,

i'm generous to a fault until taken advantage of then i become totally detached from you,

and theres more, but i wont bore you with the details, OK.

"Yeah, she smacked you around a little" Really, well i dont feel the contusions, must have been my thick skin and water off a ducks back attitude then.

It just goes to show how someone like me, who is doing only good, becomes the centre of an attack by the Pro Drug and Alcohol Abuser Lobby while the Drug and Alcohol Abuser gets a free pass to carry on with their full support, no wonder the western world is in such a state of Drug and Alcohol Abuse and riddled with crime.

Now for you LOS,

Well i didnt know you had had a problem in your past so please forgive me for the insensitivity on my part, as if i had known i would have been more careful with my comments and more inderstanding of your circumstances, thank you in anticipation.

And may i congratulate you on keeping clean for 7 years, you really dont need my help and advice do you?

When you are quoting my many errors and conflicting statements please do me the honour of pointing them out to me so as i can comment on them otherwise i wont have a clue as to what you are refering to, will i?

You say that i do have a little bit of understanding of the problem of drug and alcohol abuse but not as much as i think i do, and you are quite right there, i do have a big head, and a big mouth to go with it thats for sure, and i aint no doctor or rehabilitationist either, i only have my own personal experiances of friends and relatives and the vast amount of energy i have put in to acquiring the knowledge that i have, and i freely admit it aint nearly enough. But one thing i do know is that pandering up to people with addictions, pussy footing around with them, and not making them pay in hard time and/or cash enables them to carry on in anyway they want, and to harm society for the rest of us, so i dont buy in to it.

I'll give you one way of rehabilitating repeat offenders, give them five years away from this country, away from temptation, away from "friends" and relatives who help them to indulge in their addictions, and do their time as helpers in some underdeveloped country where they will get to know what poverty really is all about, away from whatever addiction attracts them, then let them come back in to society here and see if they reoffend again, knowing that if they do this is where they will be going back too if caught, and for double time this time.

You do a lot of condeming of me and my opinions, but you say nothing of how in your mind what the problem is, how we can identify the reasons for the problem, and how we can rectify the problem, that is if you think that society has a problem in the first place, and whether you think that scoiety or the abusers problems should come first, please could you be more specific?

I agree that most of your statements do show, quite clearly, that you cannot stand or tolerate Alcoholics and Drug Abusers. However, a couple things indicate that your actions differ from your stated intolerance, at least regarding the many friends and family members, etc.

I need to know what you are refering to before i answer you.

But, you don't know, and they don't know, if they'll stay clean until they doget out and give it a try. There are all kinds of things they can do to try to stay clean, and there are all kinds of things they can do to make staying clean unlikely. There are things that friends, family members, law enforcement, the judicial system, and 'society' can do to encourage and support the former, and there are things that they can do that are more likely to undermine any attempts at staying clean.

I do agree with you about people like you who wanted to become clean and when they got there stayed that way, i'm talking about those that dont and wont, not the people that tried and suceeded.

Again i need to know what things if i'm to understand your perspective of things.

AGM means Annual General Meeting.

90 in 90, ? I still dont get where this one fits in, can you explain?

white chip n.

1. Games A white disk used in poker as a betting token of minimal value.

2. Something of minimal value or worth.

So what i am saying has minimal value or worth as far as you're concerned does it?

Kind Regards, Danny

[BIGDAN]

People are afraid sometimes of being weak, so they criticize weakness in others. It is a way of distancing oneself from a perceived risk of associating with those engaged in weak behavior, to compensate for the fear of losing self-control. Until you are truly confident in your strengths, maybe it is best to avoid the temptation of being too close to that kind of weakness.

Hi ET,

The last time i visited a psychiatrist "she" ended up in therapy.

I am truly confident in my strengths so you dont have to worry about me, thanks all the same for thinking kindly towards me, i'm deeply touched.

But maybe you're right i some ways, what you're right about i dont know, but as i'm tempted by neither Alcohol, Drugs, Women, Power or Money, or even the Rock and Roll lifestyle, maybe you could give me your enlightened opinion just what my weaknesses are and what my fear is, and maybe give me the answer to my weakness and fear? I wait in anticipation.

Regards, Danny

[eternal light]

Hi ET,

The last time i visited a psychiatrist "she" ended up in therapy.

I am truly confident in my strengths so you dont have to worry about me, thanks all the same for thinking kindly towards me, i'm deeply touched.

But maybe you're right i some ways, what you're right about i dont know, but as i'm tempted by neither Alcohol, Drugs, Women, Power or Money, or even the Rock and Roll lifestyle, maybe you could give me your enlightened opinion just what my weaknesses are and what my fear is, and maybe give me the answer to my weakness and fear? I wait in anticipation.

Regards, Danny

I would guess that because you seem to go somewhat into attack mode when considering the thought of those who may overindulge in substances that perhaps deep down inside somewhere you fear the temptation of that lifestyle and the possibility of losing your strength and not being able to crawl from the abyss into the light once more. So perhaps this fear drives you to aggressively oppose said lifestyle.

[BIGDAN]

I would guess that because you seem to go somewhat into attack mode when considering the thought of those who may overindulge in substances that perhaps deep down inside somewhere you fear the temptation of that lifestyle and the possibility of losing your strength and not being able to crawl from the abyss into the light once more. So perhaps this fear drives you to aggressively oppose said lifestyle.

Hi ET,

I will consider the fact that you may have come more closely than i would have wanted to admit to ET, but i dont have any concious fear of involvement with these said substances, they do not tempt me in anyway, and never have. You must consider the fact that i have been surrounded by these people all my life in one way or another and never been unable to resist temptation in this matter, although i dont believe i have ever been tempted anyway.

Many of my family were heavy drinkers, some were alcoholics, most smoked cigarettes, a few did drugs, i do none of these, although i did drink for a while i was never one to over do it and i only ever drank lager, and i was always was compos mentis. It was only when i started hanging out with my brother and his friends that i was introduced in to the world of drugs, and although i never did drugs i was present while they did. I was always outspoken on the matter and in the end the friendships were terminated by mutual concent, in other words they had had enough of my whining on about it and i had had enough of their self abuse.

Where does that leave us now ET? for i am never going to lose my strenght of selfwill and i can assure you i will never be looking into the abbys, i have always tried to live my life in the light, and that is where i have found my road, fear i eat for breakfast.

Regards, Danny

[eternal light]

Hi ET,

I will consider the fact that you may have come more closely than i would have wanted to admit to ET, but i dont have any concious fear of involvement with these said substances, they do not tempt me in anyway, and never have. You must consider the fact that i have been surrounded by these people all my life in one way or another and never been unable to resist temptation in this matter, although i dont believe i have ever been tempted anyway.

Many of my family were heavy drinkers, some were alcoholics, most smoked cigarettes, a few did drugs, i do none of these, although i did drink for a while i was never one to over do it and i only ever drank lager, and i was always was compos mentis. It was only when i started hanging out with my brother and his friends that i was introduced in to the world of drugs, and although i never did drugs i was present while they did. I was always outspoken on the matter and in the end the friendships were terminated by mutual concent, in other words they had had enough of my whining on about it and i had had enough of their self abuse.

Where does that leave us now ET? for i am never going to lose my strenght of selfwill and i can assure you i will never be looking into the abbys, i have always tried to live my life in the light, and that is where i have found my road, fear i eat for breakfast.

Regards, Danny

I would try to look at it all from various points of view to get a well-rounded big picture of people's lives.

I would hesitate to abandon Miss Amy to the bleak enclaves of forgotten institutions of health that are themselves struggling to maintain funding for services.

As long as she is on her feet and remotely coherent, she should use the best years of her life to earnestly pursue a career that allows her to fulfill her aspirations and use her talents wisely.

If she ends up in rehab despite her best efforts, then at least she knows that she tried. If things get too hot and heavy, then a brief time-out could maybe make sense, but for now it seems that would be an unnecessarily extreme measure.

In the future if she finds herself in a high profile position like the awards presenter, her team should try to arrange for her to arrive early and well-rested, sufficiently rehearsed but still spontaneous, positive, happy, supplied with non-alcoholic beverages, healthy snacks and preferably no drugs prior unless her doctor insists, and with excellent wardrobe support.

After all, this is show business and in Las Vegas we do what it takes, but too much flashing of the goods at the wrong moment does not always follow with rave reviews, and it would be nice to see her do well.

Read on, please...

books.google.com Fooling With Drugs, page 108

[Lake of Shadows]

Now for you LOS,

Well i didnt know you had had a problem in your past so please forgive me for the insensitivity on my part, as if i had known i would have been more careful with my comments and more inderstanding of your circumstances, thank you in anticipation.

I wasn't particularly personally offended, but I did want you to recognize that many of your comments were indeed 'insensitive' and could certainly be hurtful to some folks. You have now not only recognizd that but admitted it, so of course you're forgiven.

And may i congratulate you on keeping clean for 7 years, you really dont need my help and advice do you?

Thank you. I may not need your help and advice, but I have needed, and continue to need advice and suggestions and help... and in turn I also try to pass along some of my experience and help to others who have some of the same struggles that I do. Sometimes that help comes from unexpected places and unexpected people, so I try not to totally rule out anything or anybody.

When you are quoting my many errors and conflicting statements please do me the honour of pointing them out to me so as i can comment on them otherwise i wont have a clue as to what you are refering to, will i?

Well, in one of my posts I put the parts I took issue with in bold. For example "...be forceably rehabilitated, up to a point where she will be cured,..." I believe the disease model, and I do not believe we are ever "cured", and that belief tends to be substantiated by what I've seen of the addicts who do think they're "cured".

You also said "...Celebrities, who wants to be one? Why People Hero Worship these Low Lifes i'll never know, Crucifixion would be Too Good for these Abusers in My Opinion. I just cant wait for the Muslims to Introduce Sharia Law over here in England, what an Exidos we would see of these Worthless Cretins then..." [post #10]

You are the one who has said in several posts that you condemn and villify addicts, alcoholics, etc. You have some pretty harsh words about families and friends who enable the low-lifes, worthless cretins,etc. etc. [see post #27 for example] yet for people you obviously care about you have said "...how do i deal with them you may ask? i give them chance after chance, i tell them exactly as i've told it on here, i offer even my home as an escape, but in the end if they dont take the help offered then thats as much as i can offer and do, they are out of my life untill such time as they have found the help they need..." [also post #27]. Do you truly not see the discrepancy there? To someone else, your attempts to help might be viewed as pandering to them, or pussy-footing around, enabling them, etc.

You say that i do have a little bit of understanding of the problem of drug and alcohol abuse but not as much as i think i do, and you are quite right there, i do have a big head, and a big mouth to go with it thats for sure, and i aint no doctor or rehabilitationist either, i only have my own personal experiances of friends and relatives and the vast amount of energy i have put in to acquiring the knowledge that i have, and i freely admit it aint nearly enough.

Your statement here is what I was after. My 'agenda' with you (as you put it to Hickory Man)was to challenge the notion that you "... have total understanding of Alcohol and Drug Abuse,..." [post 57]. It is sometimes difficult to separate the hype and hyperbole someone posts from the truly misinformed and misquided notions that some folks have.

But one thing i do know is that pandering up to people with addictions, pussy footing around with them, and not making them pay in hard time and/or cash enables them to carry on in anyway they want, and to harm society for the rest of us, so i dont buy in to it.

I'm certainly not going to disagree with you on that. There have ben several examples recently of people who were essentially 'enabled' to death. Tough love? That is sometimes exactly what is needed. certainly, people need to set boundaries, and there have to be consequences if those boundaries are crossed. But, villification and condemnation are not the same thing as 'tough love'. (BTW, I'm well aware that you aren't the only one who was 'villifying' Amy Winehouse, or addicts in general... you were just the most visible and vocal person to do so, and therefore, you're the one catching most of the heat from those of us who object to what was being said).

I'll give you one way of rehabilitating repeat offenders, give them five years away from this country, away from temptation, away from "friends" and relatives who help them to indulge in their addictions, and do their time as helpers in some underdeveloped country where they will get to know what poverty really is all about, away from whatever addiction attracts them, then let them come back in to society here and see if they reoffend again, knowing that if they do this is where they will be going back too if caught, and for double time this time.

IMO, that very well might work for some folks, but probably wouldn't for others.

You do a lot of condeming of me and my opinions, but you say nothing of how in your mind what the problem is, how we can identify the reasons for the problem, and how we can rectify the problem, that is if you think that society has a problem in the first place, and whether you think that scoiety or the abusers problems should come first, please could you be more specific?

Actually, I'm not condemning you, (despite my calling you a fuckwit). I was challenging some of your assertions. (See above).

I do agree with you about people like you who wanted to become clean and when they got there stayed that way, i'm talking about those that dont and wont, not the people that tried and suceeded.

Again i need to know what things if i'm to understand your perspective of things.

I guess one point that I want to make is that for a lot of us, we don't 'succeed' the first time we try.

AGM means Annual General Meeting.

90 in 90, ? I still dont get where this one fits in, can you explain?

white chip n.

1. Games A white disk used in poker as a betting token of minimal value.

2.

Something of minimal value or worth.

So what i am saying has minimal value or worth as far as you're concerned does it?

No, that's not what I mean at all. some 12-step programs use 'chips' or keytags in different colors to recognize certain amounts of cleantime... Orange is for 30 days, green for 60 days, etc. A 'white chip' or 'white keytag' is the first one given out, and it's for folks who are just starting out. I can give a more detailed answer by PM if you really want one. My wisecrack about you getting a white chip was referring to you just starting out as a new member of Fuckwits Anonymous.

'90 in 90' refers to the suggestion given to newcomers that they attend 90 meetings in 90 days.

I know I haven't addressed everything you mentioned, but it's late and this is already way more than anybody probably wants to read... I can continue later by PM if you (or whomever) wants to do so...

[BIGDAN]

I wasn't particularly personally offended, but I did want you to recognize that many of your comments were indeed 'insensitive' and could certainly be hurtful to some folks. You have now not only recognizd that but admitted it, so of course you're forgiven.

Thank you very much LOS, my diplomatic skills are almost as bad as one can get, i'm much better at being a Martial Arts Teacher where everyone obeys my commands or else i inflict pain on them, and that believe it or not works, thats how i was treated 25 years ago and it has worked for me, although as you have pointed out to me, it doesnt work for everyone.

Thank you. I may not need your help and advice, but I have needed, and continue to need advice and suggestions and help... and in turn I also try to pass along some of my experience and help to others who have some of the same struggles that I do. Sometimes that help comes from unexpected places and unexpected people, so I try not to totally rule out anything or anybody.

Well you have certainly helped me during our discussions, thanks.

Well, in one of my posts I put the parts I took issue with in bold. For example "...be forceably rehabilitated, up to a point where she will be cured,..." I believe the disease model, and I do not believe we are ever "cured", and that belief tends to be substantiated by what I've seen of the addicts who do think they're "cured".

I think the problem here is that in cities everything is so easy to come by, put someone in the country, on a farm, work em hard for 12 hours every day and you might get them to appriciate that that work ethic is better than the one they have become accustomed too, just a thought.

You also said "...Celebrities, who wants to be one? Why People Hero Worship these Low Lifes i'll never know, Crucifixion would be Too Good for these Abusers in My Opinion. I just cant wait for the Muslims to Introduce Sharia Law over here in England, what an Exidos we would see of these Worthless Cretins then..." [post #10]

You are the one who has said in several posts that you condemn and villify addicts, alcoholics, etc. You have some pretty harsh words about families and friends who enable the low-lifes, worthless cretins,etc. etc. [see post #27 for example] yet for people you obviously care about you have said "...how do i deal with them you may ask? i give them chance after chance, i tell them exactly as i've told it on here, i offer even my home as an escape, but in the end if they dont take the help offered then thats as much as i can offer and do, they are out of my life untill such time as they have found the help they need..." [also post #27]. Do you truly not see the discrepancy there? To someone else, your attempts to help might be viewed as pandering to them, or pussy-footing around, enabling them, etc.

The discrepancy is entirely my fault, i will attempt to put that right. In the past when i was not fully aware of how i was being treaded by the said friends and relatives, i was enabling them, pussy footing around them, and pandering to them, guilty as charged, but after some very distasteful incidents and a good hard look how these people were treating me i changed my way of thinking, and my way of dealing with them, and my attitude towards them. That happened back in the early 90s, and let me tell you this, i have had nothing but good luck and health since, i dont need to check my wallet everyday or my belonings in my home and i dont have to worry on a day to day basis about how hard done by they are because while they are still being addicts i will have nothing to do with them whatsoever. But if that changes, so might i.

Your statement here is what I was after. My 'agenda' with you (as you put it to Hickory Man)was to challenge the notion that you "... have total understanding of Alcohol and Drug Abuse,..." [post 57]. It is sometimes difficult to separate the hype and hyperbole someone posts from the truly misinformed and misquided notions that some folks have.

I'll put it another way then, because i wanted to know why people were treating me the way they were i became proactive in finding out why.

I did this over some years and i think i have a very good understanding of peoples problems who abuse substances, i'm no expert but i have a lot of knowledge and i'm still prepared to learn more. The problem i have, or people have with me is this, i disagree how society deals with these people, not the people like yourself who have sought help and are clean, but people like Amy Winehouse who at first wouldnt admit a problem then tried rehab didnt like it so carried on in the same way, and in doing so they tell their army of young impressionable fans thats its OK to Abuse Substances, OK not to go to Rehab, OK to go around under the influence and make other peoples lives a misery. Its not the Amy Winehouses i hate, its the things they do, if she cleans her act up and gets the help she needs the i'll be off her back, but i wont be buying any records. Does that make sense to you?

I'm certainly not going to disagree with you on that. There have been several examples recently of people who were essentially 'enabled' to death. Tough love? That is sometimes exactly what is needed. certainly, people need to set boundaries, and there have to be consequences if those boundaries are crossed. But, villification and condemnation are not the same thing as 'tough love'. (BTW, I'm well aware that you aren't the only one who was 'villifying' Amy Winehouse, or addicts in general... you were just the most visible and vocal person to do so, and therefore, you're the one catching most of the heat from those of us who object to what was being said).

I will again appologise for my outspokeness spilling over in to villification, but i believe that condemnation to bring these people to recognise that their ways are no good for them, their families or for society in general, has its uses, again i know a lot of you will disagree but thats how i feel.

In Martial Arts we do this in front of the whole class, and people respond by not behaving badly again, but if they do then they are out, and when they experiance that rejection they come back and seek to be readmitted, which thet are, and they become some of the most wonderful students you could ever have. This is where i think society lets addicts down, if everybody rejected their behavior, gave them no money or food, shunned by friends and family, then you give them a reason to rehabilitate, and then you can welcome them back in to society, in to a family, and in to friendships. But society does not know how to do this, Martial Arts does, the Horse Whisperer does, the Dog Whisperer does, but society, no, it has so much to learn. You may disagree with me if you wish but its how i feel and think, and i know it works because i've seen it work.

IMO, that very well might work for some folks, but probably wouldn't for others.

Actually, I'm not condemning you, (despite my calling you a fuckwit). I was challenging some of your assertions. (See above).

I guess one point that I want to make is that for a lot of us, we don't 'succeed' the first time we try.

I believe that people stay in the abbys or the dark because they feel safe, cosy, amongst friends, all sorts of reasons, we need to make them aware that we as a society wont allow them to stay in the dark, we need to convince or even make them understand that it is far better to live in the light where everyone can love them, hate is the emotion of the dark, and that leads to despair and death.

Led Zeppelin said, "In the light you will find the road" and i truely believe that.

And you can call me a fcukwit anytime you like, i deserve the title, and you did a good job of challenging some of my assertions.

No, that's not what I mean at all. some 12-step programs use 'chips' or keytags in different colors to recognize certain amounts of cleantime... Orange is for 30 days, green for 60 days, etc. A 'white chip' or 'white keytag' is the first one given out, and it's for folks who are just starting out. I can give a more detailed answer by PM if you really want one. My wisecrack about you getting a white chip was referring to you just starting out as a new member of Fuckwits Anonymous.

'90 in 90' refers to the suggestion given to newcomers that they attend 90 meetings in 90 days.

I know I haven't addressed everything you mentioned, but it's late and this is already way more than anybody probably wants to read... I can continue later by PM if you (or whomever) wants to do so...

Hi LOS, you have done brilliantly, much better than me, you certainly know your stuff. And you dont have to appologise to no one for anything especially to me. I think you can tell i have a lot of ignorance in these matters as well as some knowledge, well now thanks to you i have a little more.

The one thing that you wont change in me is my philosophy,

"Recognise what is Good and what is Evil, concentrate on what is Good and shun what is Evil."

I know it sounds like some religious dogma but it isnt, its a good way to live your life, the only hard thing is to recognise the difference between the two.

Yes please PM me some more details whenever you have the chance.

Very Kind Regards, Danny

PS, and thats all i have to say on the matter, ("thank christ" i hear you say )

[Hickory Man]

my diplomatic skills are almost as bad as one can get, i'm much better at being a Martial Arts Teacher where everyone obeys my commands or else i inflict pain on them, and that believe it or not works, thats how i was treated 25 years ago and it has worked for me, although as you have pointed out to me, it doesnt work for everyone.

That should be your signature!

I do mean that good-naturedly....it certainly explains quite a bit.