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SteveAJones

Cinematic Blunders: The Song Remains The Same

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Just now, blindwillie127 said:

According to Grant, TSRTS movie was his 'personal' financial masterstroke. Atlantic thought they owned it, until Grant brought the "fine print" to their attention.

 

 

LOL what led Atlantic to believe that?? Do you have more detail on that Willie??

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Also wasn't the movie meant to be played in theaters with quadraphonic sound, which was only in place in a few big city

theaters ? Also I thought(read) that the movie didn't stay around for long, and the soundtrack was their lowest selling album up to that point ? I am puzzled about the film/soundtrack being so profitable, perhaps some of my Zep

books are in error. Explanation ?

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16 hours ago, blindwillie127 said:

According to Grant, TSRTS movie was his 'personal' financial masterstroke. Atlantic thought they owned it, until Grant brought the "fine print" to their attention.

Atlantic as a company in and of themselves were never in the film distribution business, so I think you mean the accompanying 'soundtrack' album that was released simultaneously with the film; when Grant informed Atlantic of the planned in-concert album, the record company said "aha, a live album... we'll own that!", Grant countered with "uh-uh, it's not a live album, it's a SOUNDTRACK album, and if you look at pages 38 and 39 of the contract, it clearly stipulates we retain the rights to any film soundtracks"... score another one for 'G'.

 

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Ok, I’ve come with a gripe against the remastered version of tsrts audio on Spotify and I believe on cd. Having literally grown up listening to it on vinyl and miming the phrase “John Paul Jones  piano” at the end of No Quarter, where is it gone !?? Everything else is there ?? If anything needs a credit surely it’s that. It’s been bugging me..!

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9 hours ago, Bergerac said:

Ok, I’ve come with a gripe against the remastered version of tsrts audio on Spotify and I believe on cd. Having literally grown up listening to it on vinyl and miming the phrase “John Paul Jones  piano” at the end of No Quarter, where is it gone !?? Everything else is there ?? If anything needs a credit surely it’s that. It’s been bugging me..!

I had forgotten that Planty’s mention of JPJ was omitted. But if that’s your gripe against the newer version of No Quarter, you’re lucky. I can’t play it without wanting to smash my stereo. My favourite solo butchered 

I only play the songs that weren’t originally included, for the the others I play the original album

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I picked up the original Vinyl recently. All the memories of hearing No Quarter came flooding back. Quite why Page butchered it in future releases is beyond me

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11 hours ago, chillumpuffer said:

I picked up the original Vinyl recently. All the memories of hearing No Quarter came flooding back. Quite why Page butchered it in future releases is beyond me

I believe when he went to remaster the album he was bound to duplicate the original soundtrack as used in the movie which is why NQ was butchered as it also was kinda messed up in the movie. I could be wrong on this but that is what I remember reading. Again, could be wrong.

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Also missing is the Plantation from the end of the show (at least on my boxed set version). New York... Goodnight! I always loved that. There was plenty of space to include it as the audience cheers after Whole Lotta Love goes on for a fair bit. Whenever I play it I say goodnight to New York myself. The girlfriend just looks at me dazed and confused. 

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15 hours ago, Mr.Bones said:

I believe when he went to remaster the album he was bound to duplicate the original soundtrack as used in the movie which is why NQ was butchered as it also was kinda messed up in the movie. I could be wrong on this but that is what I remember reading. Again, could be wrong.

I know I have explained this many times before but since TSRTS threads keep popping up, I guess there are a few I've missed.

In short, when Jimmy Page set about to remaster "The Song Remains the Same", because of Hollywood copyright laws and the rights of the film director, Jimmy Page could not alter one frame of the movie "The Song Remains the Same" and still release it under that title. But that did not hold for the soundtrack album. Jimmy Page could have put out the entire 1973 MSG concert intact and in order as the soundtrack album without having to butcher "No Quarter", "Black Dog", "Celebration Day", "Dazed and Confused", etc., etc. if he wanted to do so. Hollywood rights had nothing to do with soundtrack album. That is why the original 1976 album was different from the film to begin with.

No. This is all on Jimmy Page and someone with balls (obviously not Brad Tolinsky) needs to ask him point blank about it. Jimmy Page himself said back in 2008 that he wanted the soundtrack to match the movie. Which makes no sense at all from a musician's standpoint, nor from the band's legacy standpoint. Why needlessly butcher the soundtrack to make your band (especially Bonham) seem incompetent and unable to keep time and count to four?

The fact that he had to stick to the butchery of the film should have inspired Jimmy to give fans more of the complete show on the soundtrack release.

And, as I have explained before, if Jimmy had just ditched the idea of remastering "The Song Remains the Same" as it stood as a film and instead approached it as releasing it as a new concert film under a different title...say "Rocking the Garden" or "MSG 1973" ...then Jimmy could have skirted the Hollywood copyright issues and done whatever he wanted with all of the available concert footage and even ditched the fantasy sequences if he had the extra concert footage to replace them with. It could have been a more pure concert film and restored the "No Quarter" solo among the other botched edits.

But, like most recent live Led Zeppelin releases, it was another lost opportunity to restore a show to its proper greatness.

Edited by Strider

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1 hour ago, Strider said:

if Jimmy had just ditched the idea of remastering "The Song Remains the Same" as it stood as a film and instead approached it as releasing it as a new concert film under a different title...say "Rocking the Garden" or "MSG 1973" ...then Jimmy could have done whatever he wanted with all of the available concert footage and even ditched the fantasy sequences of he concert footage to replace them with. It could have been a more pure concert film and restored the "No Quarter" solo among the other botched edits.

This statement blows my mind. I simply cannot believe if this possibility exists it has not been acted upon. Also, who is the copyright owner(s) for the film? Surely Jimmy could sit down with them and discuss the potential to do what EVERY damn hollywood film has, or has had added - which is a "Directors cut" edition. Even before it became a thing, a lot of good films predating DVD's were re-visited and a "Special Edition" was released or a "Directors cut". Lots of additional content. Deleted scenes (additional songs?), Featurettes (backstage footage, interviews, 'the making of' mini-doco), Director's commentary (never understood that, but there could be notes or comments the lads have that could be added).

So what is stopping TSRTS film from getting a "Special Edition" release???? Fucking hell, the copyright owners would be looking at some good income! CHA-CHING!!! A release like that may or may not be massive, but it would at the very least be a commercial success. It could be hyped and unleashed. It could turn into a monster to a quality rock starved modern public. Who knows???

Me thinks closer to the truth is there is no film in a can anywhere that is not already out there somewhere. What we have is what we are ever going to get. Fuck I hope that is wrong, but if it is wrong, where the fuck is the unseen/unheard material! If it's on a shelf it is criminal!

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I re-read recently an interview with Kevin Shirley in which he said Planty had been a lot more hands on with this release than others, which probably explains the removal of some of his adlibs in the songs, particularly TSRTS, and in-between song chatter.

Page's explanation that the soundtrack needed to match the film doesn't hold up fully as there are some glitches in the film that have been repaired on the soundtrack, so why not have repaired them all?

Even after all these years it still frustrates the fuck out of me. It is the worst album I've ever heard in my life.  Consider that, a band as huge as Zeppelin, releasing an album full of edits so amateurishly bad a deaf man would sense a change in the timing and groove. I can't think of any other album that contains one edit as bad as the ones in D&C, WLL, NQ etc, let alone a group of them. if anyone does know of one please let me know as I'd love to check it out. I know some weren't happy with HTWWW, but at least it didn't have shocking edits included

The addition of the new songs is fantastic, but the trashing of the songs previously releases is unforgivable. I can't see that it will ever be revisited to be improved as its been done twice now. What a fuck up all round. Whoever gave the go ahead for releasing it wants locking up for crimes against music  

 

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1 hour ago, rm2551 said:

This statement blows my mind. I simply cannot believe if this possibility exists it has not been acted upon. Also, who is the copyright owner(s) for the film? Surely Jimmy could sit down with them and discuss the potential to do what EVERY damn hollywood film has, or has had added - which is a "Directors cut" edition. Even before it became a thing, a lot of good films predating DVD's were re-visited and a "Special Edition" was released or a "Directors cut". Lots of additional content. Deleted scenes (additional songs?), Featurettes (backstage footage, interviews, 'the making of' mini-doco), Director's commentary (never understood that, but there could be notes or comments the lads have that could be added).

So what is stopping TSRTS film from getting a "Special Edition" release???? Fucking hell, the copyright owners would be looking at some good income! CHA-CHING!!! A release like that may or may not be massive, but it would at the very least be a commercial success. It could be hyped and unleashed. It could turn into a monster to a quality rock starved modern public. Who knows???

Me thinks closer to the truth is there is no film in a can anywhere that is not already out there somewhere. What we have is what we are ever going to get. Fuck I hope that is wrong, but if it is wrong, where the fuck is the unseen/unheard material! If it's on a shelf it is criminal!

Copyright in films is generally owned by the person who arranged for the film to be made, (i.e. the producer, the production company, or the person or company who commissioned the film) unless there is an agreement to the contrary. If the film was not commissioned, for example a home video, then copyright is owned by the person who created the film.

Ownership can also vary depending on factors such as employment, licensing agreements. Where there is more than one person responsible for making the film, copyright will be shared equally.

Copyright in a television broadcast (but only the broadcast, not the underlying film) will be owned by the broadcaster, i.e. the channel on which it was aired.

The copyright owner of a film will only own copyright in the moving images and sounds of the film. They will not necessarily own copyright in the underlying works included in the film such as the musical soundtrack or score or the screenplay. Copyright in the underlying works will generally be owned by their creators unless there is an agreement assigning or transfering copyright.

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There is always the "In For A Quick Garden" (Eckoes (sic) Fan Edition) DVD if you can find it out there.

From the DVD notes -

Quote

The soundtrack is entirely made of the Kevin Shirley fantastic stereo mix.

ADDITIONS:
-4 new songs included: Celebration Day, Over The Hills and Far Away, The Ocean, and Misty Mountain Hop.
-Added a few dialogues between songs using a combination of 8mm footage and the album sountrack.
-Heartbreaker is included! Fully! This was made possible by using every backstage footage cut from the movie, and the 2007 CD, to create a brand new documentary/fantasy sequence,.
-Black Dog is now complete, thanks to the alternate edit from LZ DVD 2003.

ALTERATIONS:
-The concert plays with the songs in their original playing order, and the music plays without any interruption.
-The credits are now at the end of the movie.
-Since I've Been Loving You use an alternate edit made for the Led Zeppelin 2003 DVD for the sole reason of being much more in sync then it's original counterpart.
-A random backstage shot inserted in Dazed and Confused is now replaced by real concert footage.
-The Song Remains The Same and Rain Song are entirely re-edited to include more actual performance footage, and less of Robert Plant fantasy sequence.

DELETIONS:
-Backstage dialogues are gone.
-Documentary parts are also gone.
-The robbery sequence is cut. Any allusions to it is gone.
-The band "home movies" introduction is cut, as well as Peter Grant and Richard Cole fantasy sequence. The concert starts right away.

 

 

Edited by nigelss

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I think I ought to try and find a copy of ''in for a quick garden'  can you tell me if it has the full no quarter guitar solo as on the soundtrack or is it the same as in the original film? thanks

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According to my copies of the DVDs (a 1999 DVD of the film and the 2007 Collector's Edition), the copyright in the film is owned by Swan Song whereas the copyright in the bonus materials (deleted scenes, omitted songs, etc.) is owned by Warner Bros.  This suggests that Page et al. own and control only the original film and probably only the soundtrack to that original film and that Warner owns whatever was left over and not used in the film.  

My original vinyl (purchased new many many years ago) of the "soundtrack" says the copyright was owned by WEA Records. Ltd.   Assuming WEA is basically Page et al., this is consistent with ownership of the film and the soundtrack to that film by Page et al.

My copy of the 2007 CD remaster of the audio "soundtrack" album indicates copyright ownership by both Atlantic Recording Corp. (identified as a Warner Music Group company) and an entity called "Mythgem, Ltd."  Because there are extra tracks on this edition (e.g., OTHAFA, MMH, etc.) the copyright ownership information here is consistent with ownership of the film and the soundtrack to that film by Page et al. (assuming Mythgem is basically Page et al.) and ownership of the left-overs and unused stuff by Warner.

So, in summary:  Copyright notices indicate that Page controls the original film and the soundtrack to that original film and that Warner owns everything else associated with the film (including audio tracks). 

My best guess is that the revenue-sharing agreement for the audio album, between Warner (Atlantic) and Page et al. (Mythgem), splits right at the line between "soundtrack" to the film and "live performances" recorded in connection with the film.   Thus, to ensure maximum value of the copyright in the audio album (and therefore the maximum revenue share from sales of the album), Page might have had an incentive to ensure that there was no dispute that the bulk of the audio album was Page-owned "soundtrack" versus Warner-owned "live performance."   In theory, that might translate to editing some songs to ensure that they are viewed as "soundtrack" to the film under current copyright law and practice (which may have changed a bit since 1976).   

Edited by Archetype

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14 minutes ago, Archetype said:

According to my copies of the DVDs (a 1999 DVD of the film and the 2007 Collector's Edition), the copyright in the film is owned by Swan Song whereas the copyright in the bonus materials (deleted scenes, omitted songs, etc.) is owned by Warner Bros.  This suggests that Page et al. own and control only the original film and probably only the soundtrack to that original film and that Warner owns whatever was left over and not used in the film.  

My original vinyl (purchased new many many years ago) of the "soundtrack" says the copyright was owned by WEA Records. Ltd.   Assuming WEA is basically Page et al., this is consistent with ownership of the film and the soundtrack to that film by Page et al.

My copy of the 2007 CD remaster of the audio "soundtrack" album indicates copyright ownership by both Atlantic Recording Corp. (identified as a Warner Music Group company) and an entity called "Mythgem, Ltd."  Because there are extra tracks on this edition (e.g., OTHAFA, MMH, etc.) the copyright ownership information here is consistent with ownership of the film and the soundtrack to that film by Page et al. (assuming Mythgem is basically Page et al.) and ownership of the left-overs and unused stuff by Warner.

So, in summary:  Copyright notices indicate that Page controls the original film and the soundtrack to that original film and that Warner owns everything else associated with the film (including audio tracks). 

My best guess is that the revenue-sharing agreement for the audio album, between Warner (Atlantic) and Page et al. (Mythgem), splits right at the line between "soundtrack" to the film and "live performances" recorded in connection with the film.   Thus, to ensure maximum value of the copyright in the audio album (and therefore the maximum revenue share from sales of the album), Page might have had an incentive to ensure that there was no dispute that the bulk of the audio album was Page-owned "soundtrack" versus Warner-owned "live performance."   In theory, that might translate to editing some songs to ensure that they are viewed as "soundtrack" to the film under current copyright law and practice (which may have changed a bit since 1976).   

 

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Give it a few years and we’ll probably see a “50th anniversary” re-re-re-remaster with extra bonus tracks and resequencing.

R😎

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Thanks for the good information Strider and all. So I guess unless/until Jimmy decides he wants to explore a revision - or "Special Edition" release, and assuming original footage is indeed in a can somewhere that can fill in everything, we have what we are ever going to get. I still find it near impossible to believe there is as yet unknown to the public the complete concert footage - the fact some parts had to be reshot in the studio to fill in for some missing footage alone indicates someone stuffed something up resulting in no footage of everything.

Pity...

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1 hour ago, rm2551 said:

Thanks for the good information Strider and all. So I guess unless/until Jimmy decides he wants to explore a revision - or "Special Edition" release, and assuming original footage is indeed in a can somewhere that can fill in everything, we have what we are ever going to get. I still find it near impossible to believe there is as yet unknown to the public the complete concert footage - the fact some parts had to be reshot in the studio to fill in for some missing footage alone indicates someone stuffed something up resulting in no footage of everything.

Pity...

I don't have much hope of there being complete concert footage of MSG 1973. With cameras running out of film in the middle of songs and certain cameramen obsessed with Robert's crotch, there certainly is no way to do an MSG 1973 without "Frankensteining" some songs.

If they had enough footage from MSG '73 in the can, Shepperton '74 wouldn't have been necessary.

However, that doesn't mean a special edition redo by Jimmy shouldn't result in some songs being restored to proper glory.

1. Rock and Roll>Celebration Day. This was the opening of the show. There is no reason this one-two punch should not have enough film...and the third night solo restored to its proper place like it was on the original 1976 soundtrack. Considering that the awesome Celebration Day that we all know and love was on the third night, that means that Joe Massot and crew should have had all the technical glitches figured out by then and had all cameras rolling.

2. Black Dog. We already know from the 2003 Live DVD that they have full complete Black Dog footage, so there is no excuse to continue with the edited abomination on TSRTS that eliminates half the verses.

3. Over the Hills and Far Away. Right about now cameras would be running out of film so unless Joe had the cameras staggered properly (and evidence suggests he didn't...at least not on the first night), a complete OTHAFA might be hard to get...unless pieced together from different nights.

4. Misty Mountain Hop>Since I've Been Loving You. Again, we have this on the 2003 DVD so it should be easy to put on any MSG '73 release. My only request is that Jimmy keep the shot of the mesmerized chick in the audience during SIBLY on the TSRTS film. On the 2003 DVD the girl is missing.

5. No Quarter. Again, cameras were probably running out of film during this song. It's anyone's guess how much film of No Quarter was shot over the three nights at MSG. Did they run out of film at the same spot in the solo all three nights?

6. TSRTS>Rain Song. Okay, if they had to reload cameras during No Quarter then we should at least have more footage of The Song Remains the Same in the can. Rain Song might be problematic but really, shouldn't Joe Massot and crew been better prepared by the third night to anticipate the reel changes? Anything to get rid of Robert's dopey fantasy.

7. Dazed and Confused. It's a 30 minute song. So I'm fully aware that it's probably impossible to have complete footage from one night of this song. Frankensteining is probably the only way to get a filmed representation of this song from MSG '73. 

8. Stairway to Heaven. The version on the TSRTS film is perfect. Why mess with perfection? 

9. Moby Dick. Another marathon song so gaps in film footage are probably unavoidable.

10. Heartbreaker. But there should not be any gaps in Heartbreaker...except due to incompetence.

11. Whole Lotta Love. A 15 minute song and it was at the end of the concert. Were they running out of film? Would be nice if they had footage of the complete funk jam into Theremin jam. But at nearly three hours into the night, who knows how much film was left in the cameras?

12. The Ocean. It's on the 2003 DVD. Put it on the MSG '73 reboot as is.

13. Other Encore songs: Communication Breakdown and Thank You. Thank You is on Youtube but it might be a melange of footage from other songs. 

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Youse lousy bums just had to remind me of the No Quarter edit, huh? Huh? Why, you, I orta...! 🤬

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