Your Opinion of Rap

[kaiser]

Hi all,

If you enjoy rap 'music' good for you.If you think it's 'art' good again.

Let's have a quiz!

Name you top 5 rap: guitarists,bassists,drummers,keyboardists!

Or your top 5:

drum machines!

sampling software!

KB (trying to make it easy!)

Answer the fooking question!

Guitarists Bassists Drummers Keyboardists

1)Jimmy Page 1)Paul McCartney 1)John Bonham 1)John Paul Jones

2)Jimi Hendrix 2)John Entwhistle 2)Keith Moon 2)Nicky Hopkins

3)Mick Taylor 3)John Paul Jones 3)Ginger Baker 3)Ian Stewart

4)Johnny Marr 4)Glen Matlock 4)Mitch Mitchell 4)Steve Winwood

5)Mick Jones (The Clash) 5)Geezer Butler 5)Dave Grohl 5)Chuck Leavell

Now as far as rap you named types of "instruments" rather than the description of those who "play" those instruments to make rap music. The term is producer. Here's 5:

Producers:

1) The Bomb Squad

2) The Dust Brothers

3) Rza

4) Dr Dre

5) The Neptunes

All those artists mentioned either come up with original beats that they program, much like a synthesizer player, or sample snippets of other sounds & combine them into a a collage of sound, like someone who plays a mellotron.

[NickZepp]

They didn't say the N word or F word every other word though. And those bands were great at sexual innuendo. Not near as good today.

[kaiser]

Rap is a producers game & it's about the record not a live performance. Phil Spector was all about productions in the 60's. He used 100's of session musicians to create this wall of sound to make perfect little records while also liberally sprinkling those records with snippets of earlier familar songs. With technology today a producer doesn't need fifty string players to play a snippet of a classical piece & incorporate it into a pop/rock/rap song. Phil Spector & George Martin were genuises at making "records" & understood sound & the ways in which it could be manipulated. Their productions were almost impossible to reproduce live, but so what, the records were great. Today's best rap producers' do the same thing. Mind you, I said the best rap producers', not every rap producer. It takes a skillful musical mind to come up with a well thought out collage of sound whether you're strumming a guitar, hitting a cowbell, or touching a keypad. It's funny to me because the snobbery that rock fans feel towards rap "music" is almost the same arguement old & new jazz snobs STILL use about rock "musicians". The irony is fantastic.

[Anjin-san]

Hi all,

Today's best rap producers' do the same thing. Mind you, I said the best rap producers', not every rap producer. It takes a skillful musical mind to come up with a well thought out collage of sound whether you're strumming a guitar, hitting a cowbell, or touching a keypad.

Sure it is!No one will!You just sample what others have done,...

It's funny to me because the snobbery that rock fans feel towards rap "music" is almost the same arguement old & new jazz snobs STILL use about rock "musicians". The irony is fantastic.

Where did I say that?

The irony is that jazz musicians play musical instruments.

KB

[dazedcat]

Why do you think music is only music if it contains musical instruments?

Because music is played on musical instruments? Hip Hop more often than not "borrows" from long established songs. Many an artist has had to sue the latest monthly flavor of hip hop artist in order to get the royalties due them for this "borrowing". How were these backing tracks made? Musicians playing musical instruments would be my guess.

I'm old enough to remember Gil Scot Heron and Grand Master Flash. They had something to say and they had musicians backing up their words. Modern hip hop is nothing more than glorified karaoke.

Lastly, within a musical context hip hop can work. I listen to a lot of jazz music and people like Archie Shepp or Erk Truffaz have used rappers in their various jazz pieces. That works. So I'm not one of those "rap sucks" types. I just think that on its' own merit, modern hip hop is very very very weak.

[toscano]

The voice is a musical instrument

[Jahfin]

They didn't say the N word or F word every other word though.

I never said they did, what did I say is that derogatory terms were used towards women and that cars, violence, sex and drugs were glorified. Rap isn't the only musical form within which women have been degraded. Rock n' roll has a long standing tradition of being about nothing but sex, drugs, violence and established a reputation for treating women as mere sexual objects. In the early days of rock n' roll it was considered "the devil's music". There were record burnings and some radio stations refused to play it. The same weak argument was made back then that rock n' roll wasn't "music".

And those bands were great at sexual innuendo. Not near as good today.

Such as?

[kaiser]

Hi all,

Sure it is!No one will!You just sample what others have done,...

Where did I say that?

The irony is that jazz musicians play musical instruments.

KB

1)Robert Plant sampled himself & others on his "Now & Zen" & "Manic Nirvana" albums. Everyone from the Stones to Aerosmith to Motley Crue to Guns 'N' Roses sample themselves in their LIVE concerts. You may or may not have a problem with those instances but with rap you do.

Sampling is not limited to sampling another artists song. Bjork for example sampled the sounds of power drills & other high powered tools to create numerous backing tracks for her "Selmasongs" album. Where's the plagiarism in that? Is there no creativity on building a musical collage based on sounds that are not even derived from a musical instrument? Trip hop artists Portishead & Massive Attack had that same approach. The Bomb Squad used to sample the sound of sirens while creating an original beat for Public Enemy's songs. Once again, where's the plagiarism? Somehow that's not deemed musically creative by you. You don't have to like it, that's fine, but to generalize sampling as a whole as being nothing more than derivitive... well you are on a Led Zeppelin site. You may want to give "How Many More Times" another listen. I'm sure Howlin Wolf & Willie Dixon would get greater pleasure from being plagiarised by people playing the riffs to their songs on instruments rather than sampling the original riffs with a keyboard without getting paid by whomever is doing the plagiarising. I think the last place anyone should accuse any other artist of being derivitive is on a Zeppelin site. And I've never had a problem that Zeppelin were so I don't throw rocks in glass houses.

2)Where did you say what? I wasn't even referring to you in that post. My point is that rap music is a producers field ala Phil Spector. Rock fans & "rock musicians" often say it's a bastardized form of music. Jazz fans & jazz musicians still say the same thing about rock music, that it has no real merit regardless if it's played on an "instrument" or not. It's musical snobbery no matter how one looks at it.

[beatbo]

1)Robert Plant sampled himself & others on his "Now & Zen" & "Manic Nirvana" albums. Everyone from the Stones to Aerosmith to Motley Crue to Guns 'N' Roses sample themselves in their LIVE concerts. You may or may not have a problem with those instances but with rap you do.

Sampling is not limited to sampling another artists song. Bjork for example sampled the sounds of power drills & other high powered tools to create numerous backing tracks for her "Selmasongs" album. Where's the plagiarism in that? Is there no creativity on building a musical collage based on sounds that are not even derived from a musical instrument? Trip hop artists Portishead & Massive Attack had that same approach. The Bomb Squad used to sample the sound of sirens while creating an original beat for Public Enemy's songs. Once again, where's the plagiarism? Somehow that's not deemed musically creative by you. You don't have to like it, that's fine, but to generalize sampling as a whole as being nothing more than derivitive... well you are on a Led Zeppelin site. You may want to give "How Many More Times" another listen. I'm sure Howlin Wolf & Willie Dixon would get greater pleasure from being plagiarised by people playing the riffs to their songs on instruments rather than sampling the original riffs with a keyboard without getting paid by whomever is doing the plagiarising. I think the last place anyone should accuse any other artist of being derivitive is on a Zeppelin site. And I've never had a problem that Zeppelin were so I don't throw rocks in glass houses.

2)Where did you say what? I wasn't even referring to you in that post. My point is that rap music is a producers field ala Phil Spector. Rock fans & "rock musicians" often say it's a bastardized form of music. Jazz fans & jazz musicians still say the same thing about rock music, that it has no real merit regardless if it's played on an "instrument" or not. It's musical snobbery no matter how one looks at it.

i have to agree with this....

[Ady]

The voice is a musical instrument

Indeed.

[Starbreaker]

I'm not a huge fan of rap, but I respect od-school acts such as Run D.M.C., Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5, and Public enemy - bands that actually had something to say. Today's so-called rappers are an absolute disgrace, every single song is basically, "yeah, we at the club, we drop it like it's hawt" - useless babble in my opinion. I honestly do not understand why my generation likes this crap that passes for music such as T-Pain, Flo-Rida, and the like.

[BIGDAN]

The voice is a musical instrument

You ain't heard mine yet, more like the LA Drone.

Regards, Danny

[Rock N' Rollin' Man]

You make a good point Jahfin.

[BIGDAN]

I never said they did, what did I say is that derogatory terms were used towards women and that cars, violence, sex and drugs were glorified. Rap isn't the only musical form within which women have been degraded. Rock n' roll has a long standing tradition of being about nothing but sex, drugs, violence and established a reputation for treating women as mere sexual objects. In the early days of rock n' roll it was considered "the devil's music". There were record burnings and some radio stations refused to play it. The same weak argument was made back then that rock n' roll wasn't "music".

Such as?

Hi Jahfin,

Women are Sexual Objects to Men as Men are Sexual Objects to Women, only difference is that Means Sexual Objects are Bigger than Women's, and Men have the "Balls" to sing about them more than Women do.

"Squeeze me baby till the Juice runs down my leg, the way you squeeze my Lemon I'm gonna fall right outta bed"

Now you wouldn't hear a Woman complain about that would you? the mess yes but not the lyrics.

Regards, Danny

[Anjin-san]

1)Robert Plant sampled himself & others on his "Now & Zen" & "Manic Nirvana" albums. Everyone from the Stones to Aerosmith to Motley Crue to Guns 'N' Roses sample themselves in their LIVE concerts. You may or may not have a problem with those instances but with rap you do.

Sampling is not limited to sampling another artists song. Bjork for example sampled the sounds of power drills & other high powered tools to create numerous backing tracks for her "Selmasongs" album. Where's the plagiarism in that? Is there no creativity on building a musical collage based on sounds that are not even derived from a musical instrument? Trip hop artists Portishead & Massive Attack had that same approach. The Bomb Squad used to sample the sound of sirens while creating an original beat for Public Enemy's songs. Once again, where's the plagiarism? Somehow that's not deemed musically creative by you. You don't have to like it, that's fine, but to generalize sampling as a whole as being nothing more than derivitive...

That said it all,...

C U later.

KB

[Starbreaker]

1)Robert Plant sampled himself & others on his "Now & Zen" & "Manic Nirvana" albums. Everyone from the Stones to Aerosmith to Motley Crue to Guns 'N' Roses sample themselves in their LIVE concerts. You may or may not have a problem with those instances but with rap you do.

Sampling is not limited to sampling another artists song. Bjork for example sampled the sounds of power drills & other high powered tools to create numerous backing tracks for her "Selmasongs" album. Where's the plagiarism in that? Is there no creativity on building a musical collage based on sounds that are not even derived from a musical instrument? Trip hop artists Portishead & Massive Attack had that same approach. The Bomb Squad used to sample the sound of sirens while creating an original beat for Public Enemy's songs. Once again, where's the plagiarism? Somehow that's not deemed musically creative by you. You don't have to like it, that's fine, but to generalize sampling as a whole as being nothing more than derivitive...

That said it all,...

C U later.

KB

Good point. For me the sampling isn't an issue; it's the overtly vulgar language and lack of any kind of substance in the music made by today's rappers that I have an issue with.

[Swede]

Hi Jahfin,

Women are Sexual Objects to Men as Men are Sexual Objects to Women, only difference is that Means Sexual Objects are Bigger than Women's, and Men have the "Balls" to sing about them more than Women do.

"Squeeze me baby till the Juice runs down my leg, the way you squeeze my Lemon I'm gonna fall right outta bed"

Now you wouldn't hear a Woman complain about that would you? the mess yes but not the lyrics.

Regards, Danny

Betty Blowtorch had the balls.

[Flyingzepp]

Hahaha, rap, what can you say about it that hasn't been said out Afghanistan? haha jk, sorta. Rap, Hip Hop, all that crap, the nu-metal scene, emo, all this is garbage. It's embarassing to be a musician sometims because of these 'genres'. I understand that people like this stuff but, I think somewhere around the times of MTV which was a couple years before my birth, is when the 'art' aspect of music started to lose its color.

[Jahfin]

Hahaha, rap, what can you say about it that hasn't been said out Afghanistan? haha jk, sorta. Rap, Hip Hop, all that crap, the nu-metal scene, emo, all this is garbage. It's embarassing to be a musician sometims because of these 'genres'. I understand that people like this stuff but, I think somewhere around the times of MTV which was a couple years before my birth, is when the 'art' aspect of music started to lose its color.

The "art" aspect of music is alive and well. What changed is the industry. Labels no longer invest the time in artists for them to develop like they used to. Artist development is a thing of the past. Now the labels expect a hit right out of the box and if that doesn't happen, they'll drop the artist like a hot potato. This is not true across the board for all labels but it is certainly the case with very many of them. Eventually the labels will fail (which is already happening) and the industry will collapse upon itself. Once that happens artistic control will be back in the hands of the artists, where it has always belonged anyway. MTV makes an easy scapegoat but they were never the cause of anything, they were a symptom of something much, much larger.

[BIGDAN]

Betty Blowtorch had the balls.

Yep, you're not wrong there 'Swede' those girls have em thats for sure.

Just glad they dont have me by em.

Regards, Danny

[kaiser]

1)Robert Plant sampled himself & others on his "Now & Zen" & "Manic Nirvana" albums. Everyone from the Stones to Aerosmith to Motley Crue to Guns 'N' Roses sample themselves in their LIVE concerts. You may or may not have a problem with those instances but with rap you do.

Sampling is not limited to sampling another artists song. Bjork for example sampled the sounds of power drills & other high powered tools to create numerous backing tracks for her "Selmasongs" album. Where's the plagiarism in that? Is there no creativity on building a musical collage based on sounds that are not even derived from a musical instrument? Trip hop artists Portishead & Massive Attack had that same approach. The Bomb Squad used to sample the sound of sirens while creating an original beat for Public Enemy's songs. Once again, where's the plagiarism? Somehow that's not deemed musically creative by you. You don't have to like it, that's fine, but to generalize sampling as a whole as being nothing more than derivitive...

That said it all,...

C U later.

KB

Lol, said what all? You made a vague statement, didn't add anything, & conveniently chopped out the last part of my quote regarding Led Zeppelin being derivitive at times. C U? Surely, Next Tuesday.

[kaiser]

Good point. For me the sampling isn't an issue; it's the overtly vulgar language and lack of any kind of substance in the music made by today's rappers that I have an issue with.

A lot of people's arguements against rap are based on the sampling part though & it's not being creative. That's why I gave my examples of sampling across the board into different genres where it is creative, including rap. I know that's not you're arguement. I'm not a huge fan of rap. I dislike the majority of it, but I dislike the majority of rock music too. Few artists from any genre really stand out in the crowd & everyone else just seems to follow their lead, usually very poorly. When it comes to lyrics I don't like vulgar for vulgar's sake whether in the past it was NWA or Guns 'N' Roses doing it. As far as the vocals on rap, it's just another way of using one's voice. I'm not a fan of opera or jazz scat singing, I really can't stand either, but it would be foolish of me to say neither is music simply because I don't like it. That's what it comes down to though with most people, if they don't like it then it's not valid. That's an absolutely silly way of looking at things.

[Jahfin]

A lot of people's arguements against rap are based on the sampling part though & it's not being creative. That's why I gave my examples of sampling across the board into different genres where it is creative, including rap. I know that's not you're arguement. I'm not a huge fan of rap. I dislike the majority of it, but I dislike the majority of rock music too. Few artists from any genre really stand out in the crowd & everyone else just seems to follow their lead, usually very poorly. When it comes to lyrics I don't like vulgar for vulgar's sake whether in the past it was NWA or Guns 'N' Roses doing it. As far as the vocals on rap, it's just another way of using one's voice. I'm not a fan of opera or jazz scat singing, I really can't stand either, but it would be foolish of me to say neither is music simply because I don't like it. That's what it comes down to though with most people, if they don't like it then it's not valid. That's an absolutely silly way of looking at things.

Since there have always been so many at this board that consider rap not to be music, I wonder what other widely accepted forms of music they also don't consider "music"?

[BIGDAN]

Since there have always been so many at this board that consider rap not to be music, I wonder what other widely accepted forms of music they also don't consider "music"?

Hi Jahfin,

Of course you're right, and I'm as guilty as anyone for putting my my foot in my mouth over this issue, "Rap IS Music", there i said it, now I'll have to lay down for a while and contemplate just what I've signed up to.

This doesn't mean I'm a reformed Bigot does it?

Regards, Danny

[kaiser]

Since there have always been so many at this board that consider rap not to be music, I wonder what other widely accepted forms of music they also don't consider "music"?

You won't except for the usual two suspects: rap & punk. With rap the arguement it usually comes down to the videos on MTV & what's played on top 40 radio as if that's the only representation of the genre; with punk it comes down to what some punk said negatively about Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd in 1977 & the lack of long guitar solo's. Lol, that's ALWAYS the basis for the arguements. It's the image that truly annoys, the music is almost always secondary & when the actual music is commented on it's always with the same old cliched responses that you could set your watch to it.