A Bluffers Guide to Led Zeppelin live

[Cecil.]

I enjoy reading Led Zeppelin live threads, but I'm not too hot on the terminology?

For example; AUD,source, soundboard, all those sort of terms.

So if in the future I mention a recording I could say a bit more than the cover looks good.

[greenman]

AUD = audience souuce, a recording taken from the audience at a live show.

Source = One particular recording of a show, there are sometimes many recordings of the same show that are editted together.

Soundboard = A two track recording taken from the direct feed into the PA system.

Multitrack = A professional recording over a number of different tracks that allows for remixing.

Plantation = A comment made by Plant between songs.

[Deborah J]

AUD = audience souuce, a recording taken from the audience at a live show.

Source = One particular recording of a show, there are sometimes many recordings of the same show that are editted together.

Soundboard = A two track recording taken from the direct feed into the PA system.

Multitrack = A professional recording over a number of different tracks that allows for remixing.

Plantation = A comment made by Plant between songs.

Your last one is classic!!

[Cecil.]

Your last one is classic!!

Whilst amusing, I thought Plantations was a bootleg?

If for example I held a microphone and made a recording of a concert that would a source.?

A feed from say a mixing desk would be called ?

And a silver is a 1st gen recording of a concert

If that makes any sense . Cecil.

[Nutrocker]

Whilst amusing, I thought Plantations was a bootleg?

If for example I held a microphone and made a recording of a concert that would a source.?

A feed from say a mixing desk would be called ?

And a silver is a 1st gen recording of a concert

If that makes any sense . Cecil.

Some of Robert's Plantations are legendary. IIRC there actually is a bootleg consisting of nothing but some of Plant's choice remarks made over the years onstage (I have a similar one of Neil Young)- classic stuff. IMO Robert's sense of camaraderie and an event is really what made him one of the kings of Rock and Roll frontmen.

Right...If you held a mike in the air and recorded the show somewhow, either analog tape or digital, that's a source. The master copy, actually, from which other copies are made (1st gens...each generation is a copy of a copy.) The master and possibly 1st generation versions will have the best sound reproduction; this is why bootleggers (yes, and even collectors) stoop to nasty measures on occasion in order to get the best sources. Same goes for a soundboard, which is straight from the Desk, you're right. Some shows have only one "source" i.e. available recording, be it audience or soundboard. It goes without saying audience recordings can tend to sound better than soundboards...more of a LIVE vibe, of course, less dry/sterile sounding. Some shows, like Knebworth '79, have multiple audience sources.

Silver CD's have very little to do with tape generations. The "Silver" isn't always the best available source for a lotta shows...hell, these days, you get more and more "1st gens" etc popping up directly on the internet! Even the goddamn bootleggers have to download the thing and press it...usually fucking with the sound one way or another (EQ, etc) in the process. Really, the best way nowadays to acquire the best available live recordings for Zeppelin, or just about any other band, is to join a torrent downloading site or music blog site (not that I'm advocating breaking any sort of laws or anything )and start searching. And on sites like this one you'll find people who REALLY know their shit when it comes to that kinda stuff...

[chef free]

SBD means a recording made by connecting directly to the mixer (or SoundBoarD)

These recordings have much better capture of the vocals, keyboards and upper register of the bass.

AUD AUDience recorded tapes often have louder guitar and more low bass.

Matrix is a mix of an audience recording and a soundboard, an attempt to get the best of both types on one recording. These recordings can be very nice indeed! For example "Northern Exposure" is a matrix of "Snow Jobs" a soundboard of March 19th 1975 mixed with "Vancouver, British Columbia, First Generation Tapes", an audience recording of the same show, the result IS quite satisfying.

Merge is a mix of two (or more) audience tapes in an attempt to improve on poor recordings.

Tape Flip, Drop Out, Cut, or Incomplete refers to missing segments of songs or shows due to the original recording being interupted somehow, like having to turn the cassette over (hence the term "Tape Flip")

Patch is a piece of a recording used to fix a missing segment of a superior recording to make a song or show complete.

Remaster is a recording which has been altered electronicly to "improve" the sound. This can include speed adjustment (which can really help) or equalizing (which gives very mixed results) and many other modern electronic/computerized adjustments. Results vary, some well reguarded remaster-ers include the Toolman and Winston. This is a matter of personal preference, I have only heard a few remasters that sound better, most just sound different!

Millard refers to Mike "the Mic" Millard who recorded many Southern California shows in the seventies. His combination of high quality equipment, good mic placement and great recording skills yeilded some of the best AUD recordings of Led Zeppelin (and many other bands) available.

Hope this helps. Happy listening!

(Edited for all the usual spelling errors!!!)

[ledzepfvr]

I have a question.

The 2003 LZ DVD has the Immigrant Song showing the performance from the Sidney Showground in Australia in February but the recording is from the Long Beach Arena show during the summer. Both from 1972.

Would that be a matrix or a merge? Or something else. The phamplet describes is as a "digitized mash".

[Nutrocker]

I have a question.

The 2003 LZ DVD has the Immigrant Song showing the performance from the Sidney Showground in Australia in February but the recording is from the Long Beach Arena show during the summer. Both from 1972.

Would that be a matrix or a merge? Or something else. The phamplet describes is as a "digitized mash".

Most likely it's more of a case of Page wanting to use a multitrack "Immigrant Song" dubbed to the footage as opposed to using an audience sourced tape. That said, the fact that Jimmy used Millard's June 21/77 audio for the '77 "The Song Remains The Same" Birmingham clip speaks volumes about the quality of Mike Millard's recordings. I've often said that Jimmy Page could take Millard's "Eddie" recording, tweak/edit/do whatever to it, put it out and stand back to watch it sell a million copies (well, maybe not a million these days with the steep decline in record sales)

A couple more for the glossary:

"Eddie": referring to Millard's LA June 21st/77 recording, commonly known as the bootleg(s) "Listen To This Eddie" (for whatever reason I don't think has ever been determined 100%) Arguably one of the best Zeppelin audience recordings, as well as a kick ass 1977 performance.

"Badgeholders": referring to the LA June 23/77 show, also taped by Mike Millard. A legendary concert, notable for Keith Moon sitting in during the drum solo and encores. Plant is constantly making references to "Badgeholders" throughout the gig (throughout the '77 LA run, actually) which is generally considered to mean "groupie".

"Tempe": referring to the infamous July 20/77 Tempe, Arizona concert, considered Zeppelin's worst gig due to Page being completely smacked out of his mind and Plant having almost no voice to speak of. A partial mediocre audience recording circulates of this trainwreck of a performance. The Tempe show is more or less the gold standard to which any other "bad" Zep performance can be compared.

"Circulating": meaning the recording(s) are readily available to the general collector, either through downloading and/or bootleg CD.

"Uncirculating": meaning the recording(s) are not available to the general collector- either because the person who owns the recording has not shared it (known as "hoarding") or it is only traded between a select few collectors (worse than hoarding, IMO) For example, there are at least two 'uncirculating' 1977 recordings (Baton Rouge and Indianapolis)

[Cecil.]

Thank You,

Had a old 1977 show on vinyl, I did wonder how or if the show sounded better on compact disc...

[Tripmender]

Thank You,

Had a old 1977 show on vinyl, I did wonder how or if the show sounded better on compact disc...

That would depend on which show it was, and whether a better source for that show has surfaced since the vinyl boot was pressed - or, in the absence of a new source, whether anyone's taken the trouble to 're-master' the show. Can you recall which show you had?

There's no reason to expect a CD to sound better than vinyl if it's the same source recording. In fact, many people would say CDs sound a lot worse. Before I foolishly sold it for a massive profit, I had a 1975 coloured vinyl pressing of Blueberry Hill, which I regretted selling for many years until I replaced it with an absurdly expensive CD. Same cover, 2 extra tracks even, but it sounded like shit, relatively speaking.

1977 is generally acknowledged to be a not-so-hot year for LZ live shows, both from a performance and a recording POV. Compared to say 1975, there is a lack of good SBD recordings. Also, Eddie Kramer was reputedly approached to professionally record a series of 77 shows, but supposedly refused because he thought that certain band members were, um, not in a position to perform to the best of their abilities. This is a shame. I for one would love to hear a pro recording of Tempe

[Cecil.]

Thank You.

It was the forum show and I remember as a young fellow Live recording 1977 tour= happiness, so I heard in

the early 90's that a better source may have come available .

I do understand that everyone here must have their favourites so if the recording stands up ..well I am happy.

best regards... cecil.

[Tripmender]

Thank You.

It was the forum show and I remember as a young fellow Live recording 1977 tour= happiness, so I heard in

the early 90's that a better source may have come available .

I do understand that everyone here must have their favourites so if the recording stands up ..well I am happy.

best regards... cecil.

How are you at typing backwards, Cecil? Try searching for this in your browser:

ztoobytilauq

[badgeholder]

That said, the fact that Jimmy used Millard's June 21/77 audio for the '77 "The Song Remains The Same" Birmingham clip speaks volumes about the quality of Mike Millard's recordings.

Or could it be that Jimmy has no tapes of his own, and therefore, had no choice but to use the Millard boot?

Why not use the SBD if he has it? "and it makes me wonder..."

[Yupter]

Or could it be that Jimmy has no tapes of his own, and therefore, had no choice but to use the Millard boot?

Why not use the SBD if he has it? "and it makes me wonder..."

I believe Jimmy is very aware of the bootleg community than one might think.

The only reason Jimmy used the Millard recording was because of its exceptional quality. There was really no other reason to include it on the DVD.

It would've stirred up a crap storm if he used a previously unknown SBD source.

I can sincerely say that I believe Jimmy has much more than he's letting on. However, keeping Led Zeppelin's consistent image of mysticism and the like is what's barring us from actually knowing for sure.

^^^And that's my conspiracy theory of the day

[Ronzo]

I believe Jimmy is very aware of the bootleg community than one might think.

The only reason Jimmy used the Millard recording was because of its exceptional quality. There was really no other reason to include it on the DVD.

It would've stirred up a crap storm if he used a previously unknown SBD source.

I can sincerely say that I believe Jimmy has much more than he's letting on. However, keeping Led Zeppelin's consistent image of mysticism and the like is what's barring us from actually knowing for sure.

^^^And that's my conspiracy theory of the day

Could be I guess.

I was recently searching for the 2/14/75 and 2/16/75 shows. Now.... I'm new to this whole bootleg thing and I did have St. Louis in MP3 already but started looking for FLAC versions. I've seen them but said I'd download them another day as I don't always have time for that stuff. I went to the same sites I have always found boots and the files are pulled down. Who does this? SOMEBODY doesn't want me to have it. Is someone associated with Page and co. making them disappear? I'll also tell you that ANY official live Zep that gets released will be purchased be me so it's not like I would say that I already have it. I never imagined that the 2003 DVD stuff even existed in the quality that it does. A friend and I bought the Royal Albert Hall stuff on a VHS many years ago and I never even sat through the whole thing it was so bad.

I guess people like us have to do the bootleg thing 'cause if it's Zep, we want it. I do feel that there's got to be more official stuff out there but the release of such things has to be timed right. We are over due IMO so hopefully...somethings cookin'.

GIVE IT UP JIMMY!

[JTM]

SBD means a recording made by connecting directly to the mixer (or SoundBoarD)

These recordings have much better capture of the vocals, keyboards and upper register of the bass.

AUD AUDience recorded tapes often have louder guitar and more low bass.

Matrix is a mix of an audience recording and a soundboard, an attempt to get the best of both types on one recording. These recordings can be very nice indeed! For example "Northern Exposure" is a matrix of "Snow Jobs" a soundboard of March 19th 1975 mixed with "Vancouver, British Columbia, First Generation Tapes", an audience recording of the same show, the result IS quite satisfying.

Merge is a mix of two (or more) audience tapes in an attempt to improve on poor recordings.

Tape Flip, Drop Out, Cut, or Incomplete refers to missing segments of songs or shows due to the original recording being interupted somehow, like having to turn the cassette over (hence the term "Tape Flip")

Patch is a piece of a recording used to fix a missing segment of a superior recording to make a song or show complete.

Remaster is a recording which has been altered electronicly to "improve" the sound. This can include speed adjustment (which can really help) or equalizing (which gives very mixed results) and many other modern electronic/computerized adjustments. Results vary, some well reguarded remaster-ers include the Toolman and Winston. This is a matter of personal preference, I have only heard a few remasters that sound better, most just sound different!

Millard refers to Mike "the Mic" Millard who recorded many Southern California shows in the seventies. His combination of high quality equipment, good mic placement and great recording skills yeilded some of the best AUD recordings of Led Zeppelin (and many other bands) available.

Hope this helps. Happy listening!

(Edited for all the usual spelling errors!!!)

A Matrix and a Merge are the same thing. Each uses 2 or more sources be it Aud/Aud, Sbd/Aud, Aud/Aud/Sbd etc.

[Cecil.]

I'm not a person who collects recordings as such, But as always thanks for the help.

Never heard of Mike Millard before this topic.Is he mentioned on the Recordings?

As to DVD did anyone here get asked to contribute footage or audio, or would that be a rumour.I'm sure

that a request went out to all Zeppelin fans.

[cookieshoes]

A Matrix and a Merge are the same thing. Each uses 2 or more sources be it Aud/Aud, Sbd/Aud, Aud/Aud/Sbd etc.

No, they're different. A Merge is where you take a soundboard or audience source and "patch" the gaps in the recording with another source. Only one source is ever playing at the same time. Blueberry Hill is a famous show which has appeared as a dozen different merges. The Fillmore West board from April 27th, 1969 is a popular merge. The only way to get the complete show of that gig is to take the soundboard, and then fill in the gaps where the soundboard isn't available, and patch it with the audience source in those spots.

A Matrix is where you actually take one recording and layer/blend it with another recording of the same show, so that both recordings run during the entire show, at the same time. There aren't that many matrixes of Zep shows out there, because very few work. Mostly, they've been matrixes using the recent soundboards. The New York "Four Blocks in the Snow" matrix was made by taking the soundboard and then layering the existing excellent audience recording on top of it (or underneath, if you prefer). So, as you're listening, you hear a blend of the soundboard and the audience recording playing at the same time, which makes for a nice mix. The problem with matrixes is that both sources have to be of exceptional quality. Otherwise, you get a result which is out of synch, or you end up maximizing the defects in both recordings, rather than having the recordings compliment each other.

[Nutrocker]

A Matrix is where you actually take one recording and layer/blend it with another recording of the same show, so that both recordings run during the entire show, at the same time. There aren't that many matrixes of Zep shows out there, because very few work. Mostly, they've been matrixes using the recent soundboards. The New York "Four Blocks in the Snow" matrix was made by taking the soundboard and then layering the existing excellent audience recording on top of it (or underneath, if you prefer). So, as you're listening, you hear a blend of the soundboard and the audience recording playing at the same time, which makes for a nice mix. The problem with matrixes is that both sources have to be of exceptional quality. Otherwise, you get a result which is out of synch, or you end up maximizing the defects in both recordings, rather than having the recordings compliment each other.

Yes. That "Four Blocks In The Snow" is the only Zeppelin matrix I've heard that actually sounds good- as good, if not better, than an official live album IMO. Some of the other matrices are absolute crap; very sloppy, and some of them fall very out of sync between the AUD and SBD sources, to the point where it's just this jumble of syncopated echoed sound; the actual coherent song itself disappears. I've heard matrixed versions of the Bonzo's Birthday '73 show, 3/19/75 in Vancouver and Seattle '77 that are just dreadful in places (I want to say they were all done by the same guy, go figure!). I've got one of the 5/26/77 Landover show that isn't bad -it's more or less in syncronization at least- but unfortunately the audience recording is so rough it does not mesh at all well with the dry soundboard, ultimately leaving this decidedly farty type sound in places under the board recording. That said, of course, to do a matrix properly must take a hell of a lot of time, effort and patience that I freely admit -even with some amateur sound production experience- I would not be able to undertake. Shit, even a good "merge" project must be an endeavour and a half; I've done one or two for personal use, but it took forever to do to fill in the gaps perfectly (audience recordings with SBD patches). I give kudos to those who can actually pull it off, and not simply do a half assed job with it. I can't believe the dude who did some of those matrices actually thought those were good enough to give out to other people. Try again, Jack, and better luck next time!

[Cecil.]

A Taper would be for example.

[JTM]

No, they're different. A Merge is where you take a soundboard or audience source and "patch" the gaps in the recording with another source. Only one source is ever playing at the same time. Blueberry Hill is a famous show which has appeared as a dozen different merges. The Fillmore West board from April 27th, 1969 is a popular merge. The only way to get the complete show of that gig is to take the soundboard, and then fill in the gaps where the soundboard isn't available, and patch it with the audience source in those spots.

A Matrix is where you actually take one recording and layer/blend it with another recording of the same show, so that both recordings run during the entire show, at the same time. There aren't that many matrixes of Zep shows out there, because very few work. Mostly, they've been matrixes using the recent soundboards. The New York "Four Blocks in the Snow" matrix was made by taking the soundboard and then layering the existing excellent audience recording on top of it (or underneath, if you prefer). So, as you're listening, you hear a blend of the soundboard and the audience recording playing at the same time, which makes for a nice mix. The problem with matrixes is that both sources have to be of exceptional quality. Otherwise, you get a result which is out of synch, or you end up maximizing the defects in both recordings, rather than having the recordings compliment each other.

Ok You're right, i was mistaken......... i was only thinking of boots with 2 or more sources playing simultaneously completely forgeting about patched boots.