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Conneyfogle

Did Led Zeppelin Rip Off a Folk Singer?

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First of all, The Small Faces didn't "cover" You Need Lovin, they fucking stole the entire song note for note and claimed full writing credits. They changed the title from Love to Lovin, thats it.

Don't believe me? Compare the two links below and get back to me.

I love it, Led Zeppelin stole the idea for Whole Lotta Love from The Small Faces, fucking please.

Willie Dixon could have sued the shit out of the Small Faces theft of You Need Love, but he didn't because it just wasn't worth it, Plant on the other hand nicks some of his lyrics (as usual)and its time to pay.

You Need Love by Muddy Waters - written by Willie Dixon

You Need Lovin by Small Faces - 'written' by "Lane/Marriott"

Now, you wanna talk about "Stolen", that was it.

Hi Snapper,

You have just given me an idea, what if i were to,

1. Grow my hair in to a Long Golden Curly Mop, well whats left of it anyway. :sarcastic_hand:

2. Change the name of the song too, "You'll Need Love". :3stooges:

3. Bring in a Calypso Band with 20 Oil Drums to back me., and call the band "Lead Zeppelin". :drumz:

4. Give Writing Credits to ME only. :oops::offtopic:

5. Hope that Robert and Jimmy want to sue me, well its one way of getting to meet them isn't it? :yay:

6. When they lose the law suit, donate all my money to my charity, http://www.charitybeginsathome.co.uk :thanku:

Regards, Danny

PS, Back on topic, :thumbsup:

Q. "Did Led Zeppelin Rip Off a Folk Singer?" :blahblah:

A. Probably. :thumbdown:

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Led Zepplein were always great at creating a unique mood and atmosphere in their songs. So if they listen to a song and like the general feel of it why not add different lyrics and riffs.

Isn't Paranoid just Communication Breakdown in drop D or C whatever Ionni played it in?

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Led Zepplein were always great at creating a unique mood and atmosphere in their songs. So if they listen to a song and like the general feel of it why not add different lyrics and riffs.

Isn't Paranoid just Communication Breakdown in drop D or C whatever Ionni played it in?

Eh No, but i can hear Communication Breakdown at the end of Rush's 2112 track, Grand Finale. ;)

Regards, Danny

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First of all, The Small Faces didn't "cover" You Need Lovin, they fucking stole the entire song note for note and claimed full writing credits. They changed the title from Love to Lovin, thats it.

Don't believe me? Compare the two links below and get back to me.

I love it, Led Zeppelin stole the idea for Whole Lotta Love from The Small Faces, fucking please.

Willie Dixon could have sued the shit out of the Small Faces theft of You Need Love, but he didn't because it just wasn't worth it, Plant on the other hand nicks some of his lyrics (as usual)and its time to pay.

You Need Love by Muddy Waters - written by Willie Dixon

You Need Lovin by Small Faces - 'written' by "Lane/Marriott"

Now, you wanna talk about "Stolen", that was it.

The Yardbirds did some shows with The Small Faces back in the day. Page once asked what song was it that The Small Faces had opened up with... It was "You Need Lovin'" Also, Plant was a giant fan of The Small Faces, and Steve Marriott. He went to many of there shows. Just listen to the way Marriott sings the song. Plant sang it almost EXACTLY the same way. Zeppelin even did that little pause at the end that The Small Faces did. "Way down inside... you need love." I know that The Small Faces had stolen the song as well, but my point is that Zeppelin's version was more inspired by The Small Faces.

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So he's getting the best 3 years' retro-action he could possibly hope for, plus a share of all future earnings.

Actually the album sales peaked in the mid-1990s. Jake Holmes will get a fraction of what he could have earned if he'd filed in 1997.

The ideal time would have been around 1987, right after Willie Dixon got paid.

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The Yardbirds did some shows with The Small Faces back in the day. Page once asked what song was it that The Small Faces had opened up with... It was "You Need Lovin'"

This would be a great story if it were true. Unfortunately, the only source for this story is former members of The Small Faces......who didn't start telling it until 20 years after it supposedly happened.

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This would be a great story if it were true. Unfortunately, the only source for this story is former members of The Small Faces......who didn't start telling it until 20 years after it supposedly happened.

Even so, all you have to do is listen. Zeppelin's version is a lot more closer to the version that the Small Faces had done. At least on Robert's end. The way he sings it is unmistakable.

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It's probable/likely that Holmes lifted the riff himself...and this was the reason he waited all this time...Now, this is hypothetical, but if he did lift it, Jimmy knows the original source...And kapow! Holmes is left out in the cold, with a "traditional" titled song he did not create. This IMO, will be the outcome, unless Jimmy decides to pay him a bit, out of the goodness of his heart.

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Now i maybe wrong and please correct me if i am but didnt Peter Grant have Jake Holmes sign over the rights of Yardbirds music to Jimmy Page when the Yardbirds broke up in the late 60's.So if this is true how will his case hold up in court?

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Now i maybe wrong and please correct me if i am but didnt Peter Grant have Jake Holmes sign over the rights of Yardbirds music to Jimmy Page when the Yardbirds broke up in the late 60's.So if this is true how will his case hold up in court?

Sorry, but you are thinking of other incidents.

Jake Holmes was never in the Yardbirds. He never signed over anything (as far as we know).

Now, Peter Grant did get Keith Relf and Jim McCarty to give Jimmy permission to use the "Yardbirds" name through September 1968, but that's unrelated to this case.

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Even so, all you have to do is listen. Zeppelin's version is a lot more closer to the version that the Small Faces had done. At least on Robert's end. The way he sings it is unmistakable.

I don't think Zeppelin's song (and it IS theirs, no matter what anybody says) is particularly close to either of them. Lyrics were taken from Dixon's song and a small part of Plant's phrasing was taken from the Small Faces song. Beyond this, WLL as a 'song' is Led Zeppelin's.The 'music' has got very little or nothing to do with Dixon or the Small Faces.

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Sorry, but you are thinking of other incidents.

Jake Holmes was never in the Yardbirds. He never signed over anything (as far as we know).

Now, Peter Grant did get Keith Relf and Jim McCarty to give Jimmy permission to use the "Yardbirds" name through September 1968, but that's unrelated to this case.

Yeah that was it. Thanks for clearing that up.

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It's probable/likely that Holmes lifted the riff himself...and this was the reason he waited all this time...Now, this is hypothetical, but if he did lift it, Jimmy knows the original source...And kapow! Holmes is left out in the cold, with a "traditional" titled song he did not create. This IMO, will be the outcome, unless Jimmy decides to pay him a bit, out of the goodness of his heart.

:yesnod:

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It's probable/likely that Holmes lifted the riff himself...and this was the reason he waited all this time...Now, this is hypothetical, but if he did lift it, Jimmy knows the original source...And kapow! Holmes is left out in the cold, with a "traditional" titled song he did not create. This IMO, will be the outcome, unless Jimmy decides to pay him a bit, out of the goodness of his heart.

Not likely or probable, I'm afraid. There are plenty of people who write original music. Many of them were heavily influenced by the work of others. It is the very few who directly copy the work of others and then pass it on as their own. That is what Page and Plant did. Repeatedly. It doesn't matter how much fuzz, or how many different repeats or extra licks they add to it. Doesn't matter how much "better" they made the songs. Doesn't matter how much they were just doing it as an homage. Theft is theft. Claiming that "everybody was doing it" doesn't justify it whatsoever.

All one needs to do is look at Page's character profile. Dazed and Confused wasn't the only outright theft that Page committed. Bron-Y-Aur Stomp, Black Mountainside, Moby Dick, Babe I'm Gonna Leave You, How Many More Times, Stairway to Heaven, Whole Lotta Love....and on and on and on. Not just ideas, but entire riffs and lines of music.

Chances are more probable and more likely that Page stole a lot of other songs that we as the audience don't even know about. Accept it. Sure, even in spite of that fact, he was awesome, and they were an awesome live act. But as an original song writer, Page was mostly a heavy-handed thief. One or two thefts could at least be enough to keep his record clean. But we're talking about upwards of 20 songs which have either a riff, melody, or lyric lifted from another group's work. Cream/Hendrix/Stones/Beatles...they all covered artists, but they all did the right thing of actually listing the people who wrote the songs they covered. Page didn't.

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^^ I know your entitled to your opinion, but when it comes to this topic....

:wall:

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Well that's an opinion, and here is another...

This is a long winded reply full of hot air. No one is more guilty of listing songs as "traditional" then the Beatles and Stones bud...They butt rapped entire catalog's with NO credit. Not that it matters, because it doesn't. I will not argue the point of not crediting someone with full knowledge of the work...I agree credit should be given. BUT! To belittle an artist for leaning heavy on influence is erroneous. Other than WLL, which yes, Robert stole the direct lyrics, The fact of the matter is, you can't point to ANY of these songs and say Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham did not create something different from them, no matter how you want downplay Zeppelin's musical achievement, that is a fact. If it wasn't, no one would listen. They'd be a cover band playing the Ramada inn...Or maybe, the small faces? Well no, that would have NEVER happened...To much pure talent. It's what is called...The proof is in the pudding, and the pudding, in this case, is in your pants.

Not likely or probable, I'm afraid. There are plenty of people who write original music. Many of them were heavily influenced by the work of others. It is the very few who directly copy the work of others and then pass it on as their own. That is what Page and Plant did. Repeatedly. It doesn't matter how much fuzz, or how many different repeats or extra licks they add to it. Doesn't matter how much "better" they made the songs. Doesn't matter how much they were just doing it as an homage. Theft is theft. Claiming that "everybody was doing it" doesn't justify it whatsoever.

All one needs to do is look at Page's character profile. Dazed and Confused wasn't the only outright theft that Page committed. Bron-Y-Aur Stomp, Black Mountainside, Moby Dick, Babe I'm Gonna Leave You, How Many More Times, Stairway to Heaven, Whole Lotta Love....and on and on and on. Not just ideas, but entire riffs and lines of music.

Chances are more probable and more likely that Page stole a lot of other songs that we as the audience don't even know about. Accept it. Sure, even in spite of that fact, he was awesome, and they were an awesome live act. But as an original song writer, Page was mostly a heavy-handed thief. One or two thefts could at least be enough to keep his record clean. But we're talking about upwards of 20 songs which have either a riff, melody, or lyric lifted from another group's work. Cream/Hendrix/Stones/Beatles...they all covered artists, but they all did the right thing of actually listing the people who wrote the songs they covered. Page didn't.

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All one needs to do is look at Page's character profile. Dazed and Confused wasn't the only outright theft that Page committed. Bron-Y-Aur Stomp, Black Mountainside, Moby Dick, Babe I'm Gonna Leave You, How Many More Times, Stairway to Heaven, Whole Lotta Love....and on and on and on. Not just ideas, but entire riffs and lines of music.

Obviously you have no interest in any kind of free exchange of ideas, nor are you open to discussing anything that contradicts your one-sided, skewed opinion. You're just here to make incendiary statements and troll for a reaction.

Cream/Hendrix/Stones/Beatles...they all covered artists, but they all did the right thing of actually listing the people who wrote the songs they covered. Page didn't.

Hendrix ripped off Jimmy Page and then claimed it was OK because Jeff Beck gave his blessing!! :rolleyes:

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All one needs to do is look at Page's character profile. Dazed and Confused wasn't the only outright theft that Page committed. Bron-Y-Aur Stomp, Black Mountainside, Moby Dick, Babe I'm Gonna Leave You, How Many More Times, Stairway to Heaven, Whole Lotta Love....and on and on and on. Not just ideas, but entire riffs and lines of music.

..and I bet you think he stole Communication Breakdown off Eddie Cochran too. :rolleyes:

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Obviously you have no interest in any kind of free exchange of ideas, nor are you open to discussing anything that contradicts your one-sided, skewed opinion. You're just here to make incendiary statements and troll for a reaction.

Uh, no trolling here. Check my posts.

I'm actually all for the discussion. It's posts like yours that are the one-sided ones. If all you wanna say is "Nah, I don't hear it, so it must not be true" or "But, they took it and made it better", that's total nonsense.

Believe me, I was just like you and the fellow above you, for a verrrrrrrry looooong tiiiime. Loved every second of every album as if it was a message from God. I had Badgeholders on vinyl, and who knows how many versions of Blueberry Hill. Defended Zep to the death. And then when I started hearing the similarities in music that they had lifted, and learning about the lawsuits that were settled out of court (how many millions did they have to pay Dixon???), it was a huge shock. But I eventually got over it. Now I can still love the albums and the music as a whole (more than most, believe me). But I've learned to accept that Page was a 20-something who decided to lift more songs than he ever gave credit for. I still love the band to death. But I'm not as naive as I used to be.

If this was only ONE song we were talking about, it really wouldn't make a difference on the whole. But there are no fewer than 20 Zep songs that have lifts of music and/or lyrics from other groups' work. If Page had been ripping off the Beatles, everyone would be able to hear it. But he didn't, he chose mostly obscure guitarists and folk and blues artists to take little bits and pieces from. Don't believe me, fine. Go and listen for yourself.

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..and I bet you think he stole Communication Breakdown off Eddie Cochran too. :rolleyes:

No, actually.

But since you wanna play, please explain to me how say...Jimmy Page's "Black Mountainside" wasn't a direct note-for-note uncredited copy of Bert Jansch's "Black Waterside"?

Oh, and to help you along, the original folk song "Black Waterside" as sung by Anne Briggs, has next to nothing in common with Jansch's guitar reworking of the traditional song, just in case you were gonna say "But wasn't Black Waterside a traditional song?". Yeah, it was. But the version that Briggs sang, has nothing in common with the guitar masterpiece that Jansch created out of it.

Here's Anne Briggs original vocal and guitar folk version of the traditional "Black Waterside":

Here's Bert Jansch's guitar version, completely unique from Briggs' version. And, in case you were wondering, even as different as Bert's version was from Briggs he STILL credited it as "traditional":

And now, please get out your copy of Zeppelin I and give a listen to Jimmy Page's "original" song "Black Mountain Side".

Hear anything familiar yet?

Edited by cookieshoes

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-RKGrmcess

I've been listening to Bert Jansch recently think this song sounds like "Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" minus vocals. If you're a fan of folk Led Zep check him out.

"At one point I was absolutely obsessed with Bert Jancsh. When I first heard that LP, I couldn't believe it. It was so far ahead of what anyone else was doing - no one in America could touch that." Jimmy Page

Edited by Rock N' Rollin' Man

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But since you wanna play, please explain to me how say...Jimmy Page's "Black Mountainside" wasn't a direct note-for-note uncredited copy of Bert Jansch's "Black Waterside"?

Because it wasn't. That is a fact. But you have no interest in debating that or admitting it.

the original folk song "Black Waterside" as sung by Anne Briggs, has next to nothing in common with Jansch's guitar reworking of the traditional song

Your argument has no merit because you apply a different standard to Jimmy Page than you apply to Bert Jansch. You just admitted that Jansch's song has something in common with Briggs' song, yet you say nothing about the fact that Jansch DID NOT CREDIT Briggs for any portion of his song. Yet you expect Page to give credit to Jansch, even though Jimmy did the exact same thing that Jansch did (i.e., incorporate his own elements into someone else's arrangement).

If you are arguing that Page is a bad guy because he stole from a thief, you're not going to get very far.

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(how many millions did they have to pay Dixon???)

You have no interest in the truth (you'd rather engage in hyperbole), but it has been reported that Dixon received about $500K plus a portion of future writing credits, which is exactly what he deserved.

it was a huge shock. But I eventually got over it.

This is such melodramatic horse manure. But if it's true, I have to ask: what kind of person gets that upset when they find out that a song was written by someone else. I didn't even get that upset when I found out Santa Claus wasn't real. Imagine if someone had told you that Santa wrote "Stairway To Heaven"!

But there are no fewer than 20 Zep songs that have lifts of music and/or lyrics from other groups' work.

This is just a lie, plain and simple.

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All one needs to do is look at Page's character profile. Dazed and Confused wasn't the only outright theft that Page committed. Bron-Y-Aur Stomp, Black Mountainside, Moby Dick, Babe I'm Gonna Leave You, How Many More Times, Stairway to Heaven, Whole Lotta Love....and on and on and on. Not just ideas, but entire riffs and lines of music.

:ahhh: ATTENTION EVERYONE :ahhh:

Am arpeggios are now off limits ;)

:run:

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