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Conneyfogle

Did Led Zeppelin Rip Off a Folk Singer?

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Besides, the question of whether Jimmy "appropriated" the song is just part of the issue here. Because even if Jimmy was "guilty" of taking credit, there are at least 2 other parties who should share the blame:

1. Atlantic Records. They approved the songwriting credit. Record labels employed staffers whose sole job was to verify songwriting credits, and yet they allowed this one to slip through.

2. Jake Holmes. Because it's his responsibility to speak up if he feels that his copyright was infringed upon. Otherwise, why shouldn't Jimmy assume that Holmes approves?

It's not Jimmy's responsibility to voluntarily change a songwriting credit.

Well said. And why (to respond to # 2 listed here,) did Holmes wait 40 years to go to court??? Could he have known that if he waited, he'd possibly get a bigger payday??? One would think the judge (if it got to that point) would see a possible motive there w/ Holmes, to exploit Mr. Page all these years later.

R B)

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From my notes:

August '67

Chris Dreja attended Jake Holmes opening for Janis Ian at Cafe a Go Go in New York City; enthusiastically decided The Yardbirds must obtain rights to record 'Dazed And Confused'

August 25, 1967

The Yardbirds billed with opening acts Jake Holmes, The Youngbloods at the Village Theater in New York; McCarty attended Holmes' set

August 26, 1967

On this date Jimmy allegedly purchased a copy of 'The Above Ground Sound of Jake Holmes' from Bleecker Bob's Record Store in Greenwich Village after McCarty played a track for him from his copy

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Here's an interview with Jake Holmes.

Examiner: What made you decide to sue now, after all this time?

JH: There was a change in the law, a precedent was set with the "Whiter Shade of Pale" case. My lawyers thought it was time and apparently I have a strong case.

The Whiter Shade of Pale Case Chronology: http://www.procolharum.com/awsop_lawsuit_index.htm

Edited by SteveAJones

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Well said. And why (to respond to # 2 listed here,) did Holmes wait 40 years to go to court??? Could he have known that if he waited, he'd possibly get a bigger payday??? One would think the judge (if it got to that point) would see a possible motive there w/ Holmes, to exploit Mr. Page all these years later.

R B)

Again - "why did Holmes wait?", "what's his motive?", "he's exploiting Page"...none of this matters. The question is - did Holmes originally write Dazed & Confused, and is he owed royalties by Page, if it's decided Page appropriated the song for his own use without permission or compensation. Period.

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Again - "why did Holmes wait?", "what's his motive?", "he's exploiting Page"...none of this matters. The question is - did Holmes originally write Dazed & Confused, and is he owed royalties by Page, if it's decided Page appropriated the song for his own use without permission or compensation. Period.

Correct, and Holmes is citing the Whiter Shade of Pale Case because it set wide-ranging guidelines for how long a person can wait before bringing any case to court. Mr. Fisher waited 38 years to claim his share of royalties...and won.

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Well said. And why (to respond to # 2 listed here,) did Holmes wait 40 years to go to court??? Could he have known that if he waited, he'd possibly get a bigger payday??? One would think the judge (if it got to that point) would see a possible motive there w/ Holmes, to exploit Mr. Page all these years later.

R B)

By the way, Holmes is exploiting Page?? Dude, come on, that's rich.

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Correct, and Holmes is citing the Whiter Shade of Pale Case because it set wide-ranging guidelines for how long a person can wait before bringing any case to court. Mr. Fisher waited 38 years to claim his share of royalties...and won.

Frankly I'm surprised that Holmes would cite the "Whiter Shade Of Pale" case, since it was filed in the British courts. I can't imagine how it would have any legal impact on Holmes' American lawsuit at all.

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Could he have known that if he waited, he'd possibly get a bigger payday?

Yes, but it seems like he waited a bit too long. The ideal time for a lawsuit would have been sometime after 1978 (when royalty rates were increased) but he's waited so long now that he won't even be eligible for any royalties from 1969-2006.

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I feel it's only fair to point out that Jimmy has had plenty of opportunities to sue musicians who have come in his wake, he's probably one of the most emulated musicians of the rock era. Anyone remember him dragging Kingdom Come, Michael Jackson, Pearl Jam, or countless others to court? I don't.

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Hey everybody we're ALL missing a major opportunity here. Think about this scenario:

The Holmes vs Page case goes to court. Jimmy on one side, Jake on the other. Surrounded by a plethora of lawyers - who are always the winners in this kinda thing, by the way. A full house of the public and press hush with baited breaths.

The Honourable Judge says, "OK, I wanna hear the two tracks."

The plaintiff counsel says, "Yes, your Honour. We have a hi-fi set up to play - "

"No! No! No!" the judge interrupts. "I wanna hear the two fellas play the freaking song here, in court."

"But your Honour!"

"Play the god-damned song!" demands the increasingly deranged judge.

Much commotion in the courtroom. An acoustic guitar is brought in for Mr Holmes. A huge stack and a ' 59 Les Paul is arranged for Mr Page.

As Jake is the plaintiff, he goes first. Pluck, plunk, plunk, plunk, plunk... The courtroom struggles to hear the notes. Jake finishes to a chivalrous round of applause.

"And now the defendant. Mr Page, if you will..."

The Pagemeister turns up his amps to '11' and, holding aloft his mighty fingerpick, begins to strum the opening riff of "Dazed and Confused". Duuuh-DUUUHH-DUUUUH-DUUUUH-DUUUUH... the courtroom shakes with the evil sonic vibrations. Legal papers blow off the desks. The judge's gammel bounces off his desk (what the hell is the name of a judge's desk - a throne?). As Page continues the riff, men in the room sit shock still in awe. The women get all squishy in ways they ne'er knew possible. A few members of the public hold aloft their hands in the classic metal salute. The riff continues unabated, blasting the room with its intense vibes. Dr Bob and Rolf from the Muppets look on, amazed. One elder hippy whips out a bong and a lighter and takes a heroic hit from it. A piece of plaster falls to the ceiling, luckily hitting a Sky News reporter (whose network soon turns the reporter's plight into a 48 hour breaking news marathon).

Finally, Jimmy finishes his brief sample of the song, letting the final chords ring out with a tasteful use of some feedback. "This is the strangest gig I've ever played," he thinks to himself.

The whole courtroom erupts into roars and fanatic cheering. Even Jake Holmes shrugs his shoulders and admits to his counsel, "Damn, that was shit hot." His counsel agrees. "That was da bomb, I eminently concur."

Finally the judge speaks. "Well, I don't know about you, but that freaking ROCKED! About time that Mr Page graced any stage with a public performance, I'd say."

Everyone nods like a bunch of well-pleased Muppets after a good performance. Even Dr Bob and Rolf the Piano Player in the back row agree. Dr Bob to Rolf: "Hey maaaaan, we should put that in our set-list." Rolf: "Woof!"

"We'll have a recess for lunch," says the judge. "Back at two o'clock."

Later, once reassembled back in the courtroom, the judge addresses the courtroom.

"This has been a most groovy day, folks. A heavy rockin' day, I think you'll agree." The courtroom murmurs in accordance. "I have given this case a long consideration, and my ruling is this: I find for the [insert your prediction here]." B)

Edited by Triplet Kick

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Hey everybody we're ALL missing a major opportunity here. Think about this scenario:

The Holmes vs Page case goes to court. Jimmy on one side, Jake on the other. Surrounded by a plethora of lawyers - who are always the winners in this kinda thing, by the way. A full house of the public and press hush with baited breaths.

The Honourable Judge says, "OK, I wanna hear the two tracks."

The plaintiff counsel says, "Yes, your Honour. We have a hi-fi set up to play - "

"No! No! No!" the judge interrupts. "I wanna hear the two fellas play the freaking song here, in court."

"But your Honour!"

"Play the god-damned song!" demands the increasingly deranged judge.

Much commotion in the courtroom. An acoustic guitar is brought in for Mr Holmes. A huge stack and a ' 59 Les Paul is arranged for Mr Page.

As Jake is the plaintiff, he goes first. Pluck, plunk, plunk, plunk, plunk... The courtroom struggles to hear the notes. Jake finishes to a chivalrous round of applause.

"And now the defendant. Mr Page, if you will..."

The Pagemeister turns up his amps to '11' and, holding aloft his mighty fingerpick, begins to strum the opening riff of "Dazed and Confused". Duuuh-DUUUHH-DUUUUH-DUUUUH-DUUUUH... the courtroom shakes with the evil sonic vibrations. Legal papers blow off the desks. The judge's gammel bounces off his desk (what the hell is the name of a judge's desk - a throne?). As Page continues the riff, men in the room sit shock still in awe. The women get all squishy in ways they ne'er knew possible. A few members of the public hold aloft their hands in the classic metal salute. The riff continues unabated, blasting the room with its intense vibes. Dr Bob and Rolf from the Muppets look on, amazed. One elder hippy whips out a bong and a lighter and takes a heroic hit from it. A piece of plaster falls to the ceiling, luckily hitting a Sky News reporter (whose network soon turns the reporter's plight into a 48 hour breaking news marathon).

Finally, Jimmy finishes his brief sample of the song, letting the final chords ring out with a tasteful use of some feedback. "This is the strangest gig I've ever played," he thinks to himself.

The whole courtroom erupts into roars and fanatic cheering. Even Jake Holmes shrugs his shoulders and admits to his counsel, "Damn, that was shit hot." His counsel agrees. "That was da bomb, I eminently concur."

Finally the judge speaks. "Well, I don't know about you, but that freaking ROCKED! About time that Mr Page graced any stage with a public performance, I'd say."

Everyone nods like a bunch of well-pleased Muppets after a good performance. Even Dr Bob and Rolf the Piano Player in the back row agree. Dr Bob to Rolf: "Hey maaaaan, we should put that in our set-list." Rolf: "Woof!"

"We'll have a recess for lunch," says the judge. "Back at two o'clock."

Later, once reassembled back in the courtroom, the judge addresses the courtroom.

"This has been a most groovy day, folks. A heavy rockin' day, I think you'll agree." The courtroom murmurs in accordance. "I have given this case a long consideration, and my ruling is this: I find for the Musican Jake Page." :lol:

Hi All,

I'll throw another angle to this at you all.

Robert is behind Jakes attack because He sold His Rights back in the eighties to finance His solo career. :o

Come on? it could be just that, you all know how much of a comedian Robert tries to be don't you? ;)

Regards, Danny

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For all those that take "good artists borrow, great artists steal" literally you are twsting what Picasso may have said into something ugly. It's not meant to interpreted as put your name on someone else's idea and take credit for it but to use what you glean from your influences and use it in a creative way that isn't a facsimile of the original work. No doubt the evolution of DAC was pretty dramatic after Page developed it but there is no denying the song's original writer was Holmes.

Edited by danelectro

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Holmes has always been a successful guy. I don't care what anyone says, it's extremely odd he would pursue this case so many, many years later.

He has publicly stated on more than one occasion the song was better left in Jimmy's hands. This just does not add up.

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Maybe Robert should give Jake a call and they could hook up some nice jingles with a southern twist.

Robert is always down for something new.

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"This is the strangest gig I've ever played," he thinks to himself.

Opening bell...NY stock exchange. WLL.

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Holmes has always been a successful guy. I don't care what anyone says, it's extremely odd he would pursue this case so many, many years later.

He has publicly stated on more than one occasion the song was better left in Jimmy's hands. This just does not add up.

A lot of people were successful until the recent economic woes. It's quite possible that he's hurting financially or not as set in his retirement as he expected, maybe he got ripped off by Bernie Madoff...who knows? And after years of people bugging him "you know you're owed a lot of money if you just went after Jimmy Page", he decided it was the time. Maybe he didn't need to before, and now he does.

Again, it really doesn't matter why, it only matters if he has a legit case.

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A lot of people were successful until the recent economic woes. It's quite possible that he's hurting financially or not as set in his retirement as he expected, maybe he got ripped off by Bernie Madoff...who knows? And after years of people bugging him "you know you're owed a lot of money if you just went after Jimmy Page", he decided it was the time. Maybe he didn't need to before, and now he does.

Again, it really doesn't matter why, it only matters if he has a legit case.

Exactly. Who cares that it's taken him this long to go after Jimmy? He has every right to go after him.

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Exactly, the timing of it matters not because it's his song and how and when he deals with it doesn't change that. I've never read anything where JH has relinquished the rights to his song on the basis the LZ version was better, who knows if he feels that way. Besides this isn't a borderline instance of inadvertently recycling a melody a-la My Sweet Lord\He's So Fine, the evloution of the LZ version is easy enough to trace back to Holmes' original. Heck the Yardbirds version was mostly true to JH's lyrics. Again this isn't subtle, the origin of the song is obvious.

Edited by danelectro

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Well I disagree, and I am sure the court will also. The fact that this case is in an ongoing stage tells me that Jimmy is not willing to settle, and must have a decent defense. He would not waste his time/money on lawyers if he thought for one second this case had legs. An offer would have been made to settle. Something is not as it seems. Unless of course, Page's lawyer is on retainer.

Also, I will repeat, I do remember Holmes being quoted directly that the song was in fact "good hands" or something to that effect, with Jimmy. Someone here will post the quote I am sure.

Edit: Was off a bit on the quote, but pretty close... :P

WS: Do you remember playing at The Village Theatre on August 25, 1967 with The Yardbirds and The Youngbloods?

JH: Yes. Yes. And that was the infamous moment of my life when "Dazed And Confused" fell into the loving arms and hands of Jimmy Page.

Edited by MrZoSo

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Edit: Was off a bit on the quote, but pretty close... :P

It seems to me Holmes' statement is a sarcastic one.

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It seems to me Holmes' statement is a sarcastic one.

Agreed, it has a sour tone to it.

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Frankly I'm surprised that Holmes would cite the "Whiter Shade Of Pale" case, since it was filed in the British courts. I can't imagine how it would have any legal impact on Holmes' American lawsuit at all.

An English case would not be binding in an American court and vice versa. However, a case in one jurisdiction can be said to be of interest to a court in another jurisdiction.

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Well I disagree, and I am sure the court will also. The fact that this case is in an ongoing stage tells me that Jimmy is not willing to settle, and must have a decent defense. He would not waste his time/money on lawyers if he thought for one second this case had legs. An offer would have been made to settle. Something is not as it seems. Unless of course, Page's lawyer is on retainer.

Also, I will repeat, I do remember Holmes being quoted directly that the song was in fact "good hands" or something to that effect, with Jimmy. Someone here will post the quote I am sure.

Edit: Was off a bit on the quote, but pretty close... :P

JP has held his ground because strategically it benefits him to do so, an admission of copping DAC would open up the cash drawer as well as what could be the difference between partial credit and full credit to JH. This case will never be decided in his favor unless there is a statute of limitations. But the longer it drags out, and Jimmy can afford to wait it out, the less the settlement and awarded credit will be. What JH may or may not have said won't matter, oral representations are never recognized by the courts, it's called hearsay. Besides if it comes to that JP's comments about DAC have been evasive and awkward to the point where it wouldn't favor him. In the end there isn't any mystery here, the song is JH's and it sounds like he may have proof he tried to handle this outside of the courts years ago.

Edited to add that the comment JH supposedly made is a quote from Will Shade's BS. The same WS that was torched here due to the half truths and out and out misinformation he used in his so called expose'. To consider any of that truth means to accept it all as truth, can't have it both ways.

Edited by danelectro

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JP has held his ground because strategically it benefits him to do so, an admission of copping DAC would open up the cash drawer as well as what could be the difference between partial credit and full credit to JH. This case will never be decided in his favor unless there is a statute of limitations. But the longer it drags out, and Jimmy can afford to wait it out, the less the settlement and awarded credit will be. What JH may or may not have said won't matter, oral representations are never recognized by the courts, it's called hearsay. Besides if it comes to that JP's comments about DAC have been evasive and awkward to the point where it wouldn't favor him. In the end there isn't any mystery here, the song is JH's and it sounds like he may have proof he tried to handle this outside of the courts years ago.

Edited to add that the comment JH supposedly made is a quote from Will Shade's BS. The same WS that was torched here due to the half truths and out and out misinformation he used in his so called expose'. To consider any of that truth means to accept it all as truth, can't have it both ways.

Your first statement is a contradiction, obviously. Read it yourself. You are saying he is holding his ground so no admission of guilt will save him money, yet in the next breath you claim to know he cannot win other than statute of limitations?

Nah.

If that were true (Page knowing he will have to pay and give full, or partial credit in the end), like I stated before...Jimmy would have made a generous offer to settle through counsel. (This is not considered an admission of guilt BTW. Not legally) That has not happened. There is a reason that it has not happened. We just don't know why yet. If it was SOL, we would not be discussing this. The longer it drags out...the less chance Jimmy will have to win, and it will cost him a small fortune in legal fee's..not to mention the huge payout if he loses...This strategy ONLY makes sense if Page's counsel believes they can break JH with not being able to pay his legal fees. Which is highly unlikely seeing Holmes decided out of no where to pursue this...He must have had an arrangement with his legal team upfront.

Quotes can be twisted, as you should know...And if there is a record of said quote documented...not hearsay. Tough I seriously doubt it would matter. Was just an after thought.

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