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Conneyfogle

Did Led Zeppelin Rip Off a Folk Singer?

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"...and it will cost him a small fortune in legal fee's..not to mention the huge payout if he loses...This strategy ONLY makes sense if Page's counsel believes they can break JH with not being able to pay his legal fees. Which is highly unlikely seeing Holmes decided out of no where to pursue this...He must have had an arrangement with his legal team upfront...."

Mr Zoso,

Is it possible that Holmes has come to a 'no win, no fee' arrangement with his counsel? I ask because I am not acquainted with American legal procedure.

I said in my posting yesterday that US litigation is, by all accounts, hugely expensive. If you add that on to how much JP could end up paying, it looks like this must be an ongoing headache for him. The problem for the rich is that their wealth is tied up in investments and assets. If JP has to cough up a considerable amount to Holmes, he will maybe have to sell some assets. As I said yesterday, JP had to pay out for a divorce a couple of years back. Expensive time, no matter which way you look at it.

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Mr Zoso,

Is it possible that Holmes has come to a 'no win, no fee' arrangement with his counsel? I ask because I am not acquainted with American legal procedure.I said in my posting yesterday that US litigation is, by all accounts, hugely expensive. If you add that on to how much JP could end up paying, it looks like this must be an ongoing headache for him. The problem for the rich is that their wealth is tied up in investments and assets. If JP has to cough up a considerable amount to Holmes, he will maybe have to sell some assets. As I said yesterday, JP had to pay out for a divorce a couple of years back. Expensive time, no matter which way you look at it.

Possible, but highly unlikely. The only way I can see this type of arrangement working/happening is if counsel themselves approached JH with the case. Which is very likely.

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He's probably talking about this one. You can hear what more than likely inspired Jimmy Page to develop his own song in both the theme and the way the music is phrased. But although it has similarities, it's a different song lyrically and musically. IMHO it sounds too different to violate the copyright. If they decide in favor of Jake Holmes, it will be because of the music itself, certainly not the lyrics, which are obviously different. It is the characteristic descending bass line that is most similar, so it will depend on how original the bass line was. If the rbase line came before Jake Holmes recorded it, then he is less likely to prevail. A lot will depend on how the base line originated. Where did we hear that bass line before Jake Holmes and Jimmy Page recorded it? He only talks a little bit about the process of how the song came about from the beginning. For me it does not answer the question of how the characteristic descending bass line originally developed. Without an indepth view on how his process worked during the writing of the song, you cannot decide in his favor. And if you were to decide in his favor at this point with so little knowledge of Holmes' work process, chances are that Murphy's Law would take effect, and that descending bass line would show up in music recorded earlier than that done by Jake Holmes.

It's apparent that Jimmy Page purposely went to extensive effort to rework the song precisely so that it would be different. This is not a blatant attempt to copy a song. It is a successful transformation of a metaphorical "stolen car", where the parts have been reassembled and the body has been repainted, and that is not a copyright violation. A copyright violation is where you steal the car and record it as is, without fixing it. Holmes' song may have inspired Jimmy Page, but he transformed the song, which is different from copying it.

I think his lawsuit against Jimmy Page should and will fail. Now if Jake Holmes had simply joined the Yardbirds, this dilemma would be much easier to solve. What would have happened if the Yardbirds had credited Jake Holmes at the start?

furious.com

furious.com/revised

On August 25, 1967 the Yardbirds caught an acoustic act fronted by Jake Holmes at the Village Theatre in New York's Greenwich Village. Holmes and his two sidemen played a song about a love affair gone dreadfully wrong. The song was called "Dazed & Confused." It's often been described as a song about a bad acid trip. Jake Holmes set this author straight in a 2001 interview.

"No, I never took acid. I smoked grass and tripped on it, but I never took acid. I was afraid to take it. The song's about a girl who hasn't decided whether she wants to stay with me or not. It's pretty much one of those love songs," Holmes explained.

Asked whether he remembered opening for the Yardbirds, Holmes laughed.

"Yes. Yes. And that was the infamous moment of my life when 'Dazed & Confused' fell into the loving arms and hands of Jimmy Page," he said. With its descending bass line, jittery lyrics and dramatic caesuras, the Yardbirds knew they were onto something. The very next day Jim McCarty bought Holmes' album, The Above Ground Sound of Jake Holmes.

We played with Jake in New York and I was struck by the atmosphere of 'Dazed and Confused.' I went down to Greenwich Village and bought his album and we decided to do a version," McCarty said. "We worked it out together with Jimmy contributing the guitar riffs in the middle. Don't you think he's the riff-master?"

Apparently, Page also bought the album the same day. According to Yardbirds historian Greg Russo, a certain John Alusick witnessed Jimmy Page purchasing it at Bleecker Bob's Record Store on Bleecker Street. The Yardbirds quickly set about adapting the song that had captured their collective imagination. Yardbirds singer Keith Relf tinkered with the lyrics while drummer Jim McCarty and Jimmy Page expanded the song structure itself. The song stuck to the original arrangment until the bridge. Even at this point, the fret-tapping acknowledged Holmes' original. Then Page threw in some eerie effects, bowing his guitar like a violin. Whereas a violin's neck is curved, a guitar neck is flat. Consequently, Page was only able to bow a couple strings at a time to produce an bizzare melody. When he bowed all six strings, the effect was startling. Strange moaning and whooping sounds were produced. This was a gimmick he had incorporated into his bag of tricks back in his studio days. He had first used it on two tracks on the Little Games LP, "Glimpses" and "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G23WO9S5F-s Edited by Silver Rider

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Holmes should've included a 'thank-you' card for people remembering one of his tunes as a result of Pagey's brilliant & blazing reworking of the song.

:thumbdown:

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I would think more of Holmes (maybe even feel bad for him) if he didn't wait over 40 years to do this. Obviously the man needs money and he decided to bring this up.

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I would think more of Holmes (maybe even feel bad for him) if he didn't wait over 40 years to do this. Obviously the man needs money and he decided to bring this up.

That always seemed strange to me. That's probably the reason or someone pushed him on doing this.

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Holmes should've included a 'thank-you' card for people remembering one of his tunes as a result of Pagey's brilliant & blazing reworking of the song.

:thumbdown:

"Dear Jimmy,

Thank you for making people remember me. However, being remembered doesn't pay the bills as much as one might think. As flattering as your dozen or so recorded versions of your (my? our?) song that have earned you millions of dollars are, a little credit would be cool. Maybe even a buck or two. After all, the rest of the Yardbirds flat out admit you guys heard my song when we shared the bill that night back in '68, you went out and bought my record, and learned the song. Food for thought!

Thanks,

Jake"

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Very similar songs and there is an early Yardbirds version on Circular Limit CD which bridges Holme's version to Zeppelin's. A no brainer, the only question is how much money he will get.

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"Dear Jimmy,

Thank you for making people remember me. However, being remembered doesn't pay the bills as much as one might think. As flattering as your dozen or so recorded versions of your (my? our?) song that have earned you millions of dollars are, a little credit would be cool. Maybe even a buck or two. After all, the rest of the Yardbirds flat out admit you guys heard my song when we shared the bill that night back in '68, you went out and bought my record, and learned the song. Food for thought!

Thanks,

Jake"

So who has their tongue more firmly in cheek? B)

I did, if you notice, say include the thank-you note in the lawsuit, not replace the lawsuit with it ;)

Edited by Patrycja

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Jingles composed by Jake Holmes

  • "Building a better way .... to see the U.S.A." for Chevrolet (General Motors) (1972)
  • "Be a Pepper" for Dr Pepper (with Randy Newman, 1977)
  • "Be all that you can be" for the U.S. Army (1979)
  • We Fly the World" for Pan American World Airways (DATE)
  • "Raise your hand if you're Sure" for Sure deodorant (197X)
  • "Aren't You Hungry for Burger King Now?" for Burger King (1981)
  • "America's Getting Into Training" for Amtrak corporation (1981)[5]
  • "Come to Metropolitan and simplify your life" for Metropolitan Life Insurance Company (1981)[6]
  • "Great Moments for You on CBS" for CBS (1982)
  • "Ah ha, we're sitting pretty, altogether in Schaeffer City" for Schaeffer Beer (198X)
  • "NBC, Let's All Be There!" for NBC (1985)
  • "Best a Man Can Get" for The Gillette Company (199X)
  • "Come see the softer side of Sears, Roebuck and Company" for Sears (19XX)
  • "With Charmin Ultra, Less Is More" (Cha-cha-cha!!!) for Charmin (200X)

I think the Village People may have a case against Mr. Holmes :mellow:

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These documents surfaced last year. As far as I know, there hasn't been a trial date set yet. Both sides are in discovery mode.

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"Dear Jimmy,

Thank you for making people remember me. However, being remembered doesn't pay the bills as much as one might think. As flattering as your dozen or so recorded versions of your (my? our?) song that have earned you millions of dollars are, a little credit would be cool. Maybe even a buck or two. After all, the rest of the Yardbirds flat out admit you guys heard my song when we shared the bill that night back in '68, you went out and bought my record, and learned the song. Food for thought!

Thanks,

Jake"

Great post,pretty much sums it up.Jimmy,face up to it and put it right.Pay the man.

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At this point, my wish would be for Jake to take Jimmy to the cleaners on this case. Take him for all he is worth! This way, Jimmy would have to get off his duff, and get back to work. Clean out that Led Wallet Jake! :D

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June 30, 2010, 11:43 am

Bad Times, Worse Times: Led Zeppelin Sued for Copyright Infringement

By DAVE ITZKOFF ledzep-articleInline.jpgNeil Zlozower/Rhino Records Robert Plant, John Paul Jones and Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin in an undated photo. Led Zeppelin historians have chronicled the creation of that rock band's early hit "Dazed and Confused" for so long it's understandable if fans can no longer tell what's true about its authorship. One thing is for certain: Jake Holmes, a folk singer who asserts he recorded a similar song, also called

in 1967, says that he is the song's creator and has filed a copyright infringement lawsuit against Led Zeppelin and its guitarist, Jimmy Page, as well as the band's record labels and Mr. Page's publishing company.

According to court documents filed on Monday in United States District Court in California and reported by TMZ.com, lawyers for Mr. Holmes say his "Dazed and Confused" was first copyrighted in July 1967, and its copyright renewed in December 1995. The song was later covered by the Yardbirds, the blues-rock band in which Mr. Page performed before Led Zeppelin, and the Zeppelin song was recorded in 1968 and released on the band's self-titled debut album in 1969.

Mr. Holmes's suit says Mr. Page copied the song "without authorization or permission" and "knowingly and willfully" infringes on his copyrights. A management company listed for Mr. Page said it no longer represented him, and a press representative for Led Zeppelin at Atlantic Records did not immediately reply to a request for comment.

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sometimes i feel bad for the guy jake homes they ripped him off back then and now Robert plant is ripping him off again today playing a so called new style which jake homes was playing back than .as the world turns

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That always seemed strange to me. That's probably the reason or someone pushed him on doing this.

I FEEL BAD FOR HOLMES NOT ONLY DID THEY RIP HIM OFF 40 YEARS AGO BUT NOW ROBERT PLANT IS RIPPING HIM OFF AGAIN WITH THIS SO CALLED NEW STYLE THIS WAS HOLMES S STYLE BACK IN THE 60 S WHERES JOAN BAEZ SHES NEXT. HOLMES SHOULD DO A REMAKE TODAY OF HIS SONG AND RE RIP OFF HIS SONG HE WOULD MAKE MILLIONS .

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Holmes included in his suit the remastered, 30 minute version from The Song Remans the Same, which includes snatches of Scott McKenzie's "San Francisco" and Gustav Horst's "Mars" piece, among other things. I don't know how a judge or jury will be able to recognize Holmes' folk dirge out of all that, especially considering that, in and of itself, it's not all that original.

The lyrics are different, the arrangement is a departure from even the Yardbirds version, and Page hasn't even given his bandmates comp credit, which ought to tell us something: The song -- more appropriately referred to as a masterpiece -- involved a considerable amount of writing from Mr. Page. Holmes has the Yardbirds story on his side but what Zep put on record doesn't match up too easily to what's on the Holmes record.

Holmes is no pauper, and carved out a nice career for himself writing advertising music. But this has never been as cut-and-dried for him as it looks on the surface, which may explain why he hasn't sued for all these years. Nothing sounded like Dazed then or now, which will make it very, very difficult to separate Page from his composition rights.

Edited by Mercurious

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sometimes i feel bad for the guy jake homes they ripped him off back then and now Robert plant is ripping him off again today playing a so called new style which jake homes was playing back than .as the world turns

I see you don't feel bad enough for him to spell his name right.

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A lot will depend on how the base line originated. Where did we hear that bass line before Jake Holmes and Jimmy Page recorded it?
Your take on this is pretty similar to mine. This is a lot tougher claim for Holmes to prove than it appears on the surface.

Regarding the bass line, Jones says he never heard of Jake Holmes until years and years later. And Jones isn't credited either, so he was apparently following Page and working to improve the Yardbirds version. Holmes is going to have a difficult time proving that he somehow owns a descending bass line and the structure of a folk dirge that is vaguely similar to what he recorded.

Thinking about the various lawsuits over the years (Willie Dixon, Ann Bredon, the Valens claim), no court or jury has ruled that Page and Jones (or Bonham when he was alive) do not own any work or playing that they've said is theirs. Whole Lotta Love, Babe I'm Gonna Leave You -- if Page says he wrote the music, he wrote it and the courts have agreed.

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Holmes is no pauper, and carved out a nice career for himself writing advertising music. But this has never been as cut-and-dried for him as it looks on the surface, which may explain why he hasn't sued for all these years. Nothing sounded like Dazed then or now, which will make it very, very difficult to separate Page from his composition rights.

It is very cut-and-dried. There's no need to look down the extra levels of detail. Just because Page turned the song into a 30+ minute monster doesn't erase that he took Holmes song to start with. Any court will see that, and Page would be wise to settle with Holmes out of court like he did with Valens' estate, Dixon, and Howlin' Wolf.

But that's the obvious. It's how one could suddenly "not hear" the lift of Holmes' song which iis nonsense. The bass is the same, the meter of lyrics is the same, and the song title rounds it out so that it's beyond a shadow of a doubt for where Page got his "inspiration" for Zep's Dazed from.

Besides, the version the Yardbirds took even had the same Holmes lyrics in it "I'm dazed and confused, Is it stay is it go?" So, that's a straight line connection from Holmes' original song to the Yardbirds copy and then Page's subsequent uncredited reworking. A simple look at the documented itinerary of the Yardbirds touring schedule from the era also reveals that Holmes opened for them. So, that's that. They knew each other, toured together, the Yardbirds heard Holmes do the song, and the rest of the timeline is what it is.

Holmes inclusion of the version of Dazed from The Song Remains the Same movie is due to the fact that it's among the most recent presentations of the song.

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sometimes i feel bad for the guy jake homes they ripped him off back then and now Robert plant is ripping him off again today playing a so called new style which jake homes was playing back than .as the world turns

When did "Americana" (if that's what you choose to call it) become new and when, exactly did Jake Holmes invent it? Even the artists that were playing No Depression, alt.country, y'allternative, Insurgent Country, etc. prior to Plant readily acknowledged their influences. This style of music goes back much further than Uncle Tupelo, Townes Van Zandt or even Gram Parsons. Those two artists certainly helped bring the genre (or subgenre) to a wider audience but neither has ever tried to claim they invented it. What put it on the map in an even bigger way was the O Brother Where Art Thou? soundtrack. Ever since the overwhelming success of that soundtrack and film, T Bone Burnett has been one of the most in demand producers out there right alongside Rick Rubin. Thanks to performing with Alison Krauss at a Leadbelly tribute concert a few years ago, Plant too discovered this type of music. He's not ripping off anyone, much less Jake Holmes.

Edited by Jahfin

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It is very cut-and-dried. There's no need to look down the extra levels of detail. Just because Page turned the song into a 30+ minute monster doesn't erase that he took Holmes song to start with. Any court will see that, and Page would be wise to settle with Holmes out of court like he did with Valens' estate, Dixon, and Howlin' Wolf.

But that's the obvious. It's how one could suddenly "not hear" the lift of Holmes' song which iis nonsense. The bass is the same, the meter of lyrics is the same, and the song title rounds it out so that it's beyond a shadow of a doubt for where Page got his "inspiration" for Zep's Dazed from.

Besides, the version the Yardbirds took even had the same Holmes lyrics in it "I'm dazed and confused, Is it stay is it go?" So, that's a straight line connection from Holmes' original song to the Yardbirds copy and then Page's subsequent uncredited reworking. A simple look at the documented itinerary of the Yardbirds touring schedule from the era also reveals that Holmes opened for them. So, that's that. They knew each other, toured together, the Yardbirds heard Holmes do the song, and the rest of the timeline is what it is.

Holmes inclusion of the version of Dazed from The Song Remains the Same movie is due to the fact that it's among the most recent presentations of the song.

But where did Holmes get his song from and how original is it? For instance, many people recognize Porter Wagoner for his performance of Satisfied Mind before Darrell Scott's recent delivery of the song in Band of Joy concerts. But Porter Wagoner did not originate Satisfied Mind. Joe "Red" Hayes and Jack Rhodes co-wrote the song and first released it in 1954.

How thorough was the process when they issued the copyright to Mr. Holmes?

Edited by Silver Rider

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Porter ?

Are you from Victorville ?

That's Dwight Yokel's hometown too !!!

Is The BOJ performing there soon ? :huh:

Dwight Yokum is from Kentucky. There are no Victorville dates yet for the Band of Joy.

Edited by Silver Rider

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