"Love Festival"

[sweetredwine]

German Love Festival toll hits 20 dead, 511 injured

What happened, was anyone here in attendance?

[spidersandsnakes]

Just one thing needs to be said: Woodstock saw an invasion of over 700,000 spectattors a day (for 3 days). Did anything serious like this incidenty in German happen??! The answer is NO...apart from faintings for the heat, rolling in the mud of the huge farmland and other slight big-crowd incidents, NOBODY lost their lives or were seriously injured. Where were the so-called PERFECT authorities and organizers in Germany?! NOWHERE to be found. 'NUFF SAID:(

WOODSTOCK

[Oracle]

Nice to show pics from Woodstock.

But you can't compare a gathering today with one from yesterday.

Look at the difference in just 25 years from the '69 Woodstock to the '94 one. MUCH difference among the attendee's.

Just for one, you had 'slamdancing' and such in '94 with an aggro crowd whereas in '69 there was MUCH MORE peace!

A different time, a different place. The emphasis was on the idealic. It can't be repeated.

I mean look....being a skinhead (at least a shaved head) is now in vogue. What's up with that? Oh wait, that goes for the women too. It's crazy! Nature has taken a backseat.

[spidersandsnakes]

Nice to show pics from Woodstock.

But you can't compare a gathering today with one from yesterday.

Look at the difference in just 25 years from the '69 Woodstock to the '94 one. MUCH difference among the attendee's.

Just for one, you had 'slamdancing' and such in '94 with an aggro crowd whereas in '69 there was MUCH MORE peace!

A different time, a different place. The emphasis was on the idealic. It can't be repeated.

I mean look....being a skinhead (at least a shaved head) is now in vogue. What's up with that? Oh wait, that goes for the women too. It's crazy! Nature has taken a backseat.

Sure, I'd give 40% of the blame to the " techno crowd" , but a HUGE 60% (which is rather serious!!!) goes tro the so-called "authorities"...there were hotheads at Wood stock '69 too (Hell's Angels..even the notorious Weathermen were there!!!), bikers, acid heads, anarchists, etc. ...BUT NO-ONE lost... their lives....how come???!

[Oracle]

Sure, I'd give 40% of the blame to the " techno crowd" , but a HUGE 60% (which is rather serious!!!) goes tro the so-called "authorities"...there were hotheads at Wood stock '69 too (Hell's Angels..even the notorious Weathermen were there!!!), bikers, acid heads, anarchists, etc. ...BUT NO-ONE lost... their lives....how come???!

Actually there was at least ONE death at Woodstock.

Some guy was killed by a tractor as he was sleeping. It was a tragic accident, the driver didn't see him and ran over him. DEAD.

The vibe of the time ruled. Later in Dec. of course, the tragedy of Altamont occured though. But Woodstock was 99.9999% unscathed.

And back then, MOST of the crowd, a VAST majority were left leaning hippie freaks or sympathizers. Nowadays you have a HUGE rightwing that's embraced rock and so you have a more violent prone atmosphere of clashing ideologies. Back then there was more of a cohesive collective permiating the crowd. Not so anymore.

[ledzepfvr]

I had read that those that died were in that tunnel and authorties weren't sure what set off the panic and trampeling.

My thoughts and sympathies go out to the families to those that died. Such a tragedy.

[Knebby]

Nice to show pics from Woodstock.

But you can't compare a gathering today with one from yesterday.

Look at the difference in just 25 years from the '69 Woodstock to the '94 one. MUCH difference among the attendee's.

Just for one, you had 'slamdancing' and such in '94 with an aggro crowd whereas in '69 there was MUCH MORE peace!

A different time, a different place. The emphasis was on the idealic. It can't be repeated.

I mean look....being a skinhead (at least a shaved head) is now in vogue. What's up with that? Oh wait, that goes for the women too. It's crazy! Nature has taken a backseat.

What???????????

It's got nothing to do with the attitude of the crowd or an atmosphere of peace or something "idealic" (sic)

What a slurr on the dead!

It is exactly like what happened at the Hillsbrough football disaster in the UK 20 years ago - through poor organisation, too many people were directed into too small a place, there was no way of turning back and nowhere to go, and they were crushed to death.

There was no rioting, no bad atmosphere, no bad behaviour.

Comparing it to Woodstock is irrelevant and insulting.

These people died through no fault of their own. It's a tragedy, and these judgements are WRONG.

[sweetredwine]

I had read that those that died were in that tunnel and authorities weren't sure what set off the panic and trampeling.

My thoughts and sympathies go out to the families to those that died. Such a tragedy.

This article gives views from differing political angles

German press condemns festival chaos

"The center-right Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung carried a thunderous editorial:

"Even at this early stage we can talk about several simple truths. For example: The organizers of Germany's biggest event overextended themselves. Those responsible succumbed to their craving for status. Warnings from participants were ignored, and lives were recklessly endangered.

"The organizers had even considered the effects of an explosion in the tunnel (in their safety planning). Why then, was it so difficult to consider the possibility that, in a worst-case scenario, boisterous young people might fall into the crowd from a place where they were not supposed to be and trigger a panic? Couldn't a similar thing have happened if there had been a thunderstorm?""

--

After looking at readers' comments on other web sites it seems that there were few signs posted to direct people (a much larger crowd than had been expected!) to the attractions, but perhaps the signs got torn down - who knows. Maybe this horrible experience shows that tickets should always be issued for concerts in "contained" areas (the only point of entrance to the festival was reached by passing two tunnels 120m long by 16m wide with a height of 3.8m), even if the concert is free, so that the organizers can always be held accountable for what they are organizing ... nothing is more dangerous than raising expectations (inviting people to come) then suddenly squelching their desires (cutting off entrance) and people are, after all, only human. Expecting people to behave without frustration in such a situation is immature and insane, no matter how loving and peaceful the crowd might be. What a tragedy, healing prayers to all involved.

[spidersandsnakes]

The real prob is if the so-called "authorities" decide to shgut down rock concerts as well....you NEVER know what the Con lot will do next!!!:(

[Oracle]

What???????????

Well hell, I wasn't the one who initially referenced Woodstock. I just expounded on that.

And with that,

Just goes to show ya you gotta take what's on the web with a grain of salt, so,

It sounded good to me anyway.

[redrum]

Nowadays you have a HUGE rightwing that's embraced rock and so you have a more violent prone atmosphere of clashing ideologies. Back then there was more of a cohesive collective permiating the crowd. Not so anymore.

That sounds like a load of crap, unless you're talking about skinhead types.

If I had to listen to 'techno' music for very long I'd probably shoot myself.

[Oracle]

That sounds like a load of crap, unless you're talking about skinhead types.

If I had to listen to 'techno' music for very long I'd probably shoot myself.

I believe I made a direct reference to them.

And see.... the techno instigates violence! It's not just the crank!!

[redrum]

And see.... the techno instigates violence! It's not just the crank!!

Plus it's just too many damned people for me to be around.

[Oracle]

Plus it's just too many damned people for me to be around.

damned being the key word !

I getcha though. If I 'm ever around mass gatherings anymore, I always stay on the perimeter where I can get away first, fast and easily. I won't even begin to invest in being in the middle of a big crowd nowadays. I've adopted Muhammed Ali's old motto, Float like a butterly and sting like a bee!

[redrum]

damned being the key word !

I getcha though. If I 'm ever around mass gatherings anymore, I always stay on the perimeter where I can get away first, fast and easily. I won't even begin to invest in being in the middle of a big crowd nowadays. I've adopted Muhammed Ali's old motto, Float like a butterly and sting like a bee!

When the 49ers won their first Super Bowl we went downtown for the 'celebration' and it was like a sardine can. I said 'fuck this' and got the hell outta there.

[Oracle]

When the 49ers won their first Super Bowl we went downtown for the 'celebration' and it was like a sardine can. I said 'fuck this' and got the hell outta there.

You must've gone to Fisherman's Wharf !

I have to admit, the last time I was in the middle of a large crowd was at an Army Thunderbirds airshow last fall in Honolulu. I was surrounded by over 100,000 people but at least we were all spread out on the tarmac. I got there really early on a bus (first one actually) and left the same way JUST as it was ending. Of course the crowd wasn't unruly like a concert or sports gathering, so that was easy.

Last really large concert though was...probably the Lollapalooza's in the early 90s. Rode my bicycle in to make those easy enter/exit events !

[cryingbluerain]

And back then, MOST of the crowd, a VAST majority were left leaning hippie freaks or sympathizers.

Like these folks?

[sweetredwine]

UPDATE: Love Parade Death Toll Rises to 21

"A criminal investigation has been launched into the cause of Saturday's tragedy. German media has reported that prosecutors have seized documents from the event organizers, Berlin-based Lopavent GmbH, of which Love Parade organizer Rainer Schaller -- who owns the German Mcfit health and fitness chain -- is owner and managing director. Schaller has stated that he will co-operate with any investigation.

Although official attendance figures have yet to be released, it is estimated that as many as 1.4 million people attended the free event, which was held in a disused 230,000 square-meter freight railway station.

According to police and witness reports, panic initially broke out in an overcrowded tunnel which was the main entrance and exit to and from the festival, resulting in audience members collapsing and being trampled by fans pushing forward.

Questions are now being asked about who is to blame for the tragic events, with Rainer Wendt, chairman of the German police officers' union, condemning the decision to hold the event in the city of Duisburg, in Germany's industrialized Ruhr region.

"The organizers are responsible for the tragedy because the city is too small and cramped for events like this," Wendt told reporters at a press conference in Berlin.

A separate press conference was also hastily arranged in Duisburg, the day after Love Parade, which was attended by the city's major, Adolf Sauerland; the city's security chief, Wolfgang Rabe; event organizer Schaller and Duisburg chief of police, Detlef von Schmeling, who disputed the view that the disaster was caused by a mass crowd surging forward. According to von Schmeling, "there wasn't a mass panic - it was the actions of individual people."

Love Parade founder Matthias Roeingh, better known as DJ Dr. Motte -- who was not involved in the 2010 edition -- has, meanwhile, issued a statement on his blog claiming: "The organizers didn't show a grain of responsibility."

The Duisburg tragedy was "not an act of God but the result of a horrible combination of completely overstretched authorities and incompetent organizers," according to Marek Lieberberg, a Frankfurt-based promoter who handles both the "Rock Am Ring" and "Rock Im Park" annual festivals.

"For an event of that size at least 4,000 to 5,000 security people are needed. My estimation is that there would only have been 1,000," he continues. ..."

Instead, this link below states "The police attempted to do what the organizers were supposed to do," said Jaeger, adding that a combined police force of 5,300 was present, but organizers were responsible for controling the flow of traffic."

AXA and Rainer Schaller set up emergency aid for victims of the Love Parade

" ... Available is 1 million Euro, which provide most of the insurers, but also Rainer Schaller together from his private fortune. The money will be used to sufferers, who are advised by the tragic events of last Saturday in financial need to be able to help immediately. ..."

"A memorial service will be held Saturday for the 21 people crushed to death in a mass panic at the Love Parade techno festival in Duisburg, Germany, officials said Tuesday ... The mayor, however, will not attend because of the anger toward him, according to a report by the local Rheinische Post newspaper. The newspaper also said he has received death threats."

My opinion is that while it is true that big problems are usually caused by a few unnamed people (in this case, the people giving the "V" sign from the top of the ramp and others advancing blindly by pushing, shoving and trampling), the "organizers" should be held accountable as much as possible.

[Oracle]

Like these folks?

If those are the kind of "hippies" you know, I'm sorry for your acquaintances.

It's all about who you run into. Or visa-versa.

[I Am The Fly]

Unfortunate choice of words there, Oracle

Anyway, I don't think you can attribute this accident to the nature or era of the fans involved. This kind of shit happens most years at the Mecca Hajj, I believe. And you can hardly accuse those dudes of being shaven-headed fascists. Hell, they don't even shave their beards.

[Oracle]

Unfortunate choice of words there, Oracle

Anyway, I don't think you can attribute this accident to the nature or era of the fans involved. This kind of shit happens most years at the Mecca Hajj, I believe. And you can hardly accuse those dudes of being shaven-headed fascists. Hell, they don't even shave their beards.

Just one more stumbling block !!

[cryingbluerain]

If those are the kind of "hippies" you know, I'm sorry for your acquaintances.

It's all about who you run into. Or visa-versa.

No need to feel sorry for me. Save the sorrow for Sharon Tate and other victims of violent crimes.

[I Am The Fly]

Why? What's Ozzy done this time?

[redrum]

You must've gone to Fisherman's Wharf !

I have to admit, the last time I was in the middle of a large crowd was at an Army Thunderbirds airshow last fall in Honolulu. I was surrounded by over 100,000 people but at least we were all spread out on the tarmac. I got there really early on a bus (first one actually) and left the same way JUST as it was ending. Of course the crowd wasn't unruly like a concert or sports gathering, so that was easy.

Last really large concert though was...probably the Lollapalooza's in the early 90s. Rode my bicycle in to make those easy enter/exit events !

One of the worst crowd scenes I ever got caught in the middle of was at the Pleasanton, CA fair on July 4th (late 90's). Some stupid ass gang punk pulled his pistol and was shooting up the arcade area with women and kids all over the place. But the scary part was the people semi-panicking to get out of that area and I was standing off to the side with my motorcycle just waiting for a break. It came when they opened a gate off to my left and I got the hell out of there. I think they've since cancelled the fireworks because of that fucking idiot. He was charged with 9 counts of attempted murder. I guess he didn't practice enough at the pistol range.

[Oracle]

No need to feel sorry for me. Save the sorrow for Sharon Tate and other victims of violent crimes.

Since the dead are gone, sorrow should be reserved and given to the living.

In Sharon's case, most probably Roman suffered the most, not withstanding what other's think of his personal life.

Seriously though, if you see the Manson murderer's when you hear the term hippies...you have a skewed view. They certainly weren't hippies anymore than Rush is a liberal ! Or Obama a conservative !