Nine Years Ago Today

[Anjin-san]

Hi Red,all,

I used to always say: Is Reno near Waco?

Dear Janet,thank you so much for telling the FBI,CIA,NSA not to communicate,nor share information.Thanks.

KB

[Atlas]

Hi all,

You don't want to confront the facts.Next.

KB

You have presented none.

[Mattmc1973]

OK, let’s address this purported “conspiracy”, and the logic of the plan…

Scene: a shadowy back room, with members of the FBI, CIA, Bush Administration, Elders of Zion, Mossad, and whoever else…

“OK, here’s the deal, we’re gonna blow up the World Trade Center”

“Blow it up? Like with bombs?”

“No, we’re going to crash commercial airliners into the towers.”

“OK, who’s going to do it?”

“We’ll frame some Arab terrorist-y types. You know, create a back story, have evidence that some dudes went to flight school to learn how to fly, plant security footage at the airports on the day of hijacking…the works.”

“But they won’t really be flying?”

“Nooo, we’ll remote fly the planes into the WTC.”

“Remote control? I fly radio control planes with my kids at home…but you can remote control commercial airliners?”

“Sure you can! Well, small planes can be. 767’s? Probably. We’ll figure it out.”

“Ohh, sounds cool. But what’ll happen? The towers were engineered to withstand a small plane, like a Cessna, hitting them. If 767’s hit them, will they blow up? Disintegrate? Fall down? Have their tops knocked off?”

“Details, details, it’ll be spectacular however it goes down. But, if they don’t fall or blow up from the impact, we have to make sure the towers go down.”

“How, with bombs? I mean, think of the logistics…you can’t rig the building from the bottom to blow up, like standard demolition, that’ll look suspicious. We’ll have to blow it from the area of the plane impact.”

“Yeah, so?”

“Well, so we’ll have to rig the whole building with explosives near where we think the planes will impact, but make sure the planes don’t take out the floors where the explosives are, right?”

“Yeah, I guess so…quit with these detail questions!”

“We don’t even know how to remote pilot planes this big, but we’re going to be able to make sure they impact the building within 20-30 vertical feet of where we plant all the explosives, without taking them all out??”

“We’ll figure it out.”

“Wait a minute, isn’t crashing planes into the buildings enough? Like, that’s pretty scary and destructive.”

“Nah, they have to explode and crash to the ground.”

“Then why don’t we just blow the buildings up, and say that terrorist planted bombs, or did an Oklahoma City type thing?”

“Because, the airliners thing is way more spectacular.”

“I dunno, seems needlessly complex.”

“Enough of your doubt and questions.”

“Yeah, but they’ll find remnants of explosives in the rubble if we detonate the buildings.”

“Not if we use untraceable explosives, like thermite.”

“Thermite? The stuff they make sparklers out of? That won’t cut through hundreds of girders at once.”

“Not regular thermite…but we’ll have access to special, double secret probation thermite.”

“Oh, cool. I didn’t know that existed.”

“Well, it does. Probably.”

“Ok, so let’s go back to the airliners. They’ll crash into the buildings, at a predetermined building height, I assume?”

“Yeah, but different for each building. It has be accurate, but not TOO accurate, you know?”

“But we’ll be able to keep track of where this double-special thermite is in each building, and make sure we remote-pilot the planes into the right spot in each building?”

“Yes.”

“And if the planes don’t knock the buildings over, we’ll blow them immediately?”

“Well, not right away, we’ll wait an hour or so, to make it look like the jet fuel and stress from the crashes did it. Then we’ll blow each building up at different times, again to make it look natural.”

“Oh, you know, I just thought of something…we’re going to remote pilot planes full of people?”

“No, the planes will be empty.”

“Wait, if our story is that the planes are hijacked, we’re going to have to use actually scheduled flights…so what about the people who are supposed to be on those flights?”

“We’ll switch planes.”

“Ooo, very James Bond-y.”

“Yeah, we’ll fly them to a remote location and keep them quiet.”

“Forever? That’s a hassle, to keep these people quiet forever.”

“Yeah, it will be. I guess we could kill them.”

“Then why not just let them die in the crashes into the WTC?”

“Again with your questions, you’re killing me here.”

OK, so you see where I’m going here…if this was a plan, it was the most convoluted, illogical, weirdest plan ever. The alternative is that some terrorists who hate us hijacked some planes and crashed them into the WTC. Sometimes simplest is best.

[Atlas]

OK, let’s address this purported “conspiracy”, and the logic of the plan…

Scene: a shadowy back room, with members of the FBI, CIA, Bush Administration, Elders of Zion, Mossad, and whoever else…

“OK, here’s the deal, we’re gonna blow up the World Trade Center”

“Blow it up? Like with bombs?”

“No, we’re going to crash commercial airliners into the towers.”

“OK, who’s going to do it?”

“We’ll frame some Arab terrorist-y types. You know, create a back story, have evidence that some dudes went to flight school to learn how to fly, plant security footage at the airports on the day of hijacking…the works.”

“But they won’t really be flying?”

“Nooo, we’ll remote fly the planes into the WTC.”

“Remote control? I fly radio control planes with my kids at home…but you can remote control commercial airliners?”

“Sure you can! Well, small planes can be. 767’s? Probably. We’ll figure it out.”

“Ohh, sounds cool. But what’ll happen? The towers were engineered to withstand a small plane, like a Cessna, hitting them. If 767’s hit them, will they blow up? Disintegrate? Fall down? Have their tops knocked off?”

“Details, details, it’ll be spectacular however it goes down. But, if they don’t fall or blow up from the impact, we have to make sure the towers go down.”

“How, with bombs? I mean, think of the logistics…you can’t rig the building from the bottom to blow up, like standard demolition, that’ll look suspicious. We’ll have to blow it from the area of the plane impact.”

“Yeah, so?”

“Well, so we’ll have to rig the whole building with explosives near where we think the planes will impact, but make sure the planes don’t take out the floors where the explosives are, right?”

“Yeah, I guess so…quit with these detail questions!”

“We don’t even know how to remote pilot planes this big, but we’re going to be able to make sure they impact the building within 20-30 vertical feet of where we plant all the explosives, without taking them all out??”

“We’ll figure it out.”

“Wait a minute, isn’t crashing planes into the buildings enough? Like, that’s pretty scary and destructive.”

“Nah, they have to explode and crash to the ground.”

“Then why don’t we just blow the buildings up, and say that terrorist planted bombs, or did an Oklahoma City type thing?”

“Because, the airliners thing is way more spectacular.”

“I dunno, seems needlessly complex.”

“Enough of your doubt and questions.”

“Yeah, but they’ll find remnants of explosives in the rubble if we detonate the buildings.”

“Not if we use untraceable explosives, like thermite.”

“Thermite? The stuff they make sparklers out of? That won’t cut through hundreds of girders at once.”

“Not regular thermite…but we’ll have access to special, double secret probation thermite.”

“Oh, cool. I didn’t know that existed.”

“Well, it does. Probably.”

“Ok, so let’s go back to the airliners. They’ll crash into the buildings, at a predetermined building height, I assume?”

“Yeah, but different for each building. It has be accurate, but not TOO accurate, you know?”

“But we’ll be able to keep track of where this double-special thermite is in each building, and make sure we remote-pilot the planes into the right spot in each building?”

“Yes.”

“And if the planes don’t knock the buildings over, we’ll blow them immediately?”

“Well, not right away, we’ll wait an hour or so, to make it look like the jet fuel and stress from the crashes did it. Then we’ll blow each building up at different times, again to make it look natural.”

“Oh, you know, I just thought of something…we’re going to remote pilot planes full of people?”

“No, the planes will be empty.”

“Wait, if our story is that the planes are hijacked, we’re going to have to use actually scheduled flights…so what about the people who are supposed to be on those flights?”

“We’ll switch planes.”

“Ooo, very James Bond-y.”

“Yeah, we’ll fly them to a remote location and keep them quiet.”

“Forever? That’s a hassle, to keep these people quiet forever.”

“Yeah, it will be. I guess we could kill them.”

“Then why not just let them die in the crashes into the WTC?”

“Again with your questions, you’re killing me here.”

OK, so you see where I’m going here…if this was a plan, it was the most convoluted, illogical, weirdest plan ever. The alternative is that some terrorists who hate us hijacked some planes and crashed them into the WTC. Sometimes simplest is best.

Why not just aim squirt-guns at the towers. That's pretty simple. See the thing is, the plan has to do the job.

The RC technology exist on 9/11/01.

The nano-thermite - an excellent choice for building demolition - existed on 9/11/01.

Don't leave out the WTC privatization agreement;

the death of John O'Neil;

the fact that the chairman of the National Commission on Terrorism's own office was in the WTC, and his company was the first one hit;

the insider trading;

the molten metal;

the clear record of inexplicable (from office fires) heat in the rubble for weeks after the demolition;

the many eye-witness accounts of explosions going on all over in the buildings - even before the first plane hit;

the scientific proof of the presence of thermite in large quantities;

the pulverization of virtually all the concrete;

the atomization of the steel floor decking;

the symmetrical collapse;

the videographic record of extremely hot molten metal flowing from the site of WTC2 just prior to its collapse;

the super-human maneuvers executed by the aircraft;

the BBC's report that WTC7 had already collapsed before it was demolished;

the knowledge that the buildings were going to collapse before they did - even though nothing remotely similar had ever happened;

the complete demolition of the 47 story tall WTC 7 at 5:20 in the afternoon after never being hit by a plane, nor significantly damaged by the collapse of the towers;

the lack of military response to a plane flying into the Pentagon an hour after the first plane hit the WTC;

the reports that many if not most of the accused hijackers are still alive;

the well documented connections between the flight schools where the accused terrorists attended and the illicit drug trade;

the clearly faked Osama "confession" videos;

the real records of Osama denying involvement;

the reported incompetence of the alleged pilots;

...

...

...

[Electrophile]

In order for there to be a conspiracy, there needs to be competence.

Dick Cheney is basically Darth Vader in corporeal form, but Bush? He's got all the brain power of Raggedy Andy. You mean to tell me that Bush et al meticulously planned the destruction of the WTC down to the inth detail, leaving no loose ends or paper trail or even anyone to come forward about it all these years later? Seriously? You really expect rational, logical, free-thinking, partially educated adults to believe that? Get out.

You want to know how the Twin Towers collapsed? I'll explain it to you. Jet fuel is akin to napalm. A thick, jelly-like substance that burns hotter than regular gasoline. The planes were loaded with it, as they were cross-country flights. We're talking about 10,000 gallons a piece, I believe. They were essentially bombs with wings. Now, what is in an office building that will burn and continue to burn, long after the fuel has burned off? Oh gee, I don't know......wooden desks? Bookshelves? Paper? Electronics? And on multiple floors, too! Okay, so now you have raging fires burning in both buildings, encompassing dozens of floors and it's hot. Hotter than a fire fueled by regular gasoline or other accelerants would be. The buildings are made of steel. Steel will melt or begin to malfunction if exposed to hot enough temperatures. Like say, BURNING JET FUEL. So the metal frame and outer structure of both towers are being heavily compromised by the raging infernos and the structures are starting to weaken because the steel is starting to soften and become pliant. The weight of the buildings above the impact zone is starting to cause the sides of the building AT the impact zone to bulge out. Take your hands and place them in front of you, making the sides of a box. Now slowly bring your fingers in, like you're making a half-circle. Your knuckles are doing exactly what the sides of both Twin Towers were doing. Bowing out. Finally, the weight became too much for the fire-weakened steel to support, and the tops of the buildings pancaked down and caused the buildings to totally collapse.

That was not a controlled demolition, there were no bombs or charges set off. It's simple mechanical physics. Controlled demolitions bring the building down from the BOTTOM. These buildings collapsed down from the TOP.

[ledzepfvr]

Isn't there conspiracy thread already? Can't you guys take this argument there and leave the rememberance of 9/11 at peace?

[SuperDave]

Sorry, duplicate post.

[SuperDave]

In order for there to be a conspiracy, there needs to be competence.

Dick Cheney is basically Darth Vader in corporeal form, but Bush? He's got all the brain power of Raggedy Andy. You mean to tell me that Bush et al meticulously planned the destruction of the WTC down to the inth detail, leaving no loose ends or paper trail or even anyone to come forward about it all these years later? Seriously? You really expect rational, logical, free-thinking, partially educated adults to believe that? Get out.

You want to know how the Twin Towers collapsed? I'll explain it to you. Jet fuel is akin to napalm. A thick, jelly-like substance that burns hotter than regular gasoline. The planes were loaded with it, as they were cross-country flights. We're talking about 10,000 gallons a piece, I believe. They were essentially bombs with wings. Now, what is in an office building that will burn and continue to burn, long after the fuel has burned off? Oh gee, I don't know......wooden desks? Bookshelves? Paper? Electronics? And on multiple floors, too! Okay, so now you have raging fires burning in both buildings, encompassing dozens of floors and it's hot. Hotter than a fire fueled by regular gasoline or other accelerants would be. The buildings are made of steel. Steel will melt or begin to malfunction if exposed to hot enough temperatures. Like say, BURNING JET FUEL. So the metal frame and outer structure of both towers are being heavily compromised by the raging infernos and the structures are starting to weaken because the steel is starting to soften and become pliant. The weight of the buildings above the impact zone is starting to cause the sides of the building AT the impact zone to bulge out. Take your hands and place them in front of you, making the sides of a box. Now slowly bring your fingers in, like you're making a half-circle. Your knuckles are doing exactly what the sides of both Twin Towers were doing. Bowing out. Finally, the weight became too much for the fire-weakened steel to support, and the tops of the buildings pancaked down and caused the buildings to totally collapse.

That was not a controlled demolition, there were no bombs or charges set off. It's simple mechanical physics. Controlled demolitions bring the building down from the BOTTOM. These buildings collapsed down from the TOP.

Thank you and well said! Finally, some sense here. The whole conspiracy theory is all speculative with no substantiated facts. Trying telling these theories to those who lost loved ones in the attacks. I don't think it would go over to well with them.

[Atlas]

In order for there to be a conspiracy, there needs to be competence.

Dick Cheney is basically Darth Vader in corporeal form, but Bush? He's got all the brain power of Raggedy Andy. You mean to tell me that Bush et al meticulously planned the destruction of the WTC down to the inth detail, leaving no loose ends or paper trail or even anyone to come forward about it all these years later? Seriously? You really expect rational, logical, free-thinking, partially educated adults to believe that? Get out.

Bush Jr. as mastermind is a contradiction in terms. His dad is smart enough, but I don't think he would betray the American people to that extent. I do believe he had a significant hand in the assassination of JFK, however. IOW, they got 'em by the balls. Cheney? Smarter than Jr., and certainly evil enough to participate. But I don't believe he was more than a bit player. His role was to let it happen. No, I look to people such as Heinz for the real perpetrators.

You want to know how the Twin Towers collapsed? I'll explain it to you. Jet fuel is akin to napalm. A thick, jelly-like substance that burns hotter than regular gasoline. The planes were loaded with it, as they were cross-country flights. We're talking about 10,000 gallons a piece, I believe. They were essentially bombs with wings.

Well, no. Jet fuel is basically kerosene with a few additives mixed in to reduce it's explosive characteristics. Most of the jet fuel was consumed in the fireballs. What was left was consumed in the first few minutes of the fires, and probably had a net negative effect on the intensity of the fires because it caused the initial fires to consume a great deal of oxygen at once and ignited a considerable amount of the available fuel at the same time.

Now, what is in an office building that will burn and continue to burn, long after the fuel has burned off? Oh gee, I don't know......wooden desks? Bookshelves? Paper? Electronics? And on multiple floors, too! Okay, so now you have raging fires burning in both buildings, encompassing dozens of floors and it's hot. Hotter than a fire fueled by regular gasoline or other accelerants would be. The buildings are made of steel. Steel will melt or begin to malfunction if exposed to hot enough temperatures. Like say, BURNING JET FUEL. So the metal frame and outer structure of both towers are being heavily compromised by the raging infernos and the structures are starting to weaken because the steel is starting to soften and become pliant. The weight of the buildings above the impact zone is starting to cause the sides of the building AT the impact zone to bulge out. Take your hands and place them in front of you, making the sides of a box. Now slowly bring your fingers in, like you're making a half-circle. Your knuckles are doing exactly what the sides of both Twin Towers were doing. Bowing out. Finally, the weight became too much for the fire-weakened steel to support, and the tops of the buildings pancaked down and caused the buildings to totally collapse.

That was not a controlled demolition, there were no bombs or charges set off. It's simple mechanical physics. Controlled demolitions bring the building down from the BOTTOM. These buildings collapsed down from the TOP.

You have to account for the clear record of molten metal at a temperature far hotter than a diffuse hydrocarbon flame (office fire). The whole fire induced collapse fairytale doesn't stand up to scientific rigor. Even if the fires could have caused some major structural failure, it would still not account for the observed behavior of the buildings during their demolition.

[Atlas]

Isn't there conspiracy thread already? Can't you guys take this argument there and leave the rememberance of 9/11 at peace?

No.

[Electrophile]

Atlas, you're an insult to intelligent people.

[Atlas]

Atlas, you're an insult to intelligent people.

No. I am an insult to those who wrongly believe themselves to be intelligent.

[Anjin-san]

Hi all,

You have presented none.

And YOU have?

KB

[Anjin-san]

Hi all,

Isn't there conspiracy thread already? Can't you guys take this argument there and leave the rememberance of 9/11 at peace?

I am sorry ledzepfur,...

I'll shoulder the blame for that.

I was in those buildings one month before the attack,I lost 4 friends that day.

And thank you Liz.

KB

[redrum]

Isn't there conspiracy thread already? Can't you guys take this argument there and leave the rememberance of 9/11 at peace?

You know that once the conspiracy nuts make eye contact (like the street crazies) then you're fu**ed!

[Atlas]

Hi all,

I am sorry ledzepfur,...

I'll shoulder the blame for that.

I was in those buildings one month before the attack,I lost 4 friends that day.

And thank you Liz.

KB

The contract I started working the second week of September 2001 was managed by one of the offices directly hit by AA77. I never met the man, but all of my coworkers knew General Timothy J. Maude personally. As I say, I worked at the Pentagon frequently, and worked directly for the Pentagon for years. My company headquarters were located walking distance from the Pentagon. I live a few miles from Dulles airport where AA77 took off.

That really has little bearing on my understanding of what happened, other than the fact that I have some limited inside knowledge of how the system was supposed to work - and didn't.

You seem to want a nice serene remembrance that leaves all of this in the past and leaves you feeling secure and peaceful. Never mind the fact that the crime was never given a proper investigation and almost all the crucial evidence was destroyed. Never mind the people who continue to be killed every day on the basis of the unsupported claim that somebody in the Hindu Kush was responsible for these terrorist attacks.

[Atlas]

You know that once the conspiracy nuts make eye contact (like the street crazies) then you're fu**ed!

You mean like the ones with guns, tanks, predator drones, A10s? The ones who think "al Qaeda" did it? Yup, they're pretty scary.

[redrum]

People who live in computers shouldn't take drugs.

[BIGDAN]

The contract I started working the second week of September 2001 was managed by one of the offices directly hit by AA77. I never met the man, but all of my coworkers knew General Timothy J. Maude personally. As I say, I worked at the Pentagon frequently, and worked directly for the Pentagon for years. My company headquarters were located walking distance from the Pentagon. I live a few miles from Dulles airport where AA77 took off.

That really has little bearing on my understanding of what happened, other than the fact that I have some limited inside knowledge of how the system was supposed to work - and didn't.

You seem to want a nice serene remembrance that leaves all of this in the past and leaves you feeling secure and peaceful. Never mind the fact that the crime was never given a proper investigation and almost all the crucial evidence was destroyed. Never mind the people who continue to be killed every day on the basis of the unsupported claim that somebody in the Hindu Kush was responsible for these terrorist attacks.

No disrespect to anyone but i think you have a mighty good point, and one which i also have to agree with you on, but you are preaching in the wrong topic, this topic is for "Remembrance", all else should put aside for those who wish to express their grief, you might be ultra intelligent and have contacts on the inside but as far as common decency and common sense go you are a neanderthal.

Regards, Danny

[Patrycja]

Isn't there conspiracy thread already? Can't you guys take this argument there and leave the rememberance of 9/11 at peace?

Yes. Yes there is. And on top of that one, there was that other Hitler one (thankfully deleted, it seems), and Random Thoughts AND now this one which is getting hijacked by variations on the same turgid, trite theme. One would think that common decency would make one draw the line at very simple respect.

You've started a worthy thread, ledzepfvr. I would like to add my sympathies to the families who lost loved ones. That's a heavy load to have had to bear, Anjin-san - sorry for your loss. Peace.

[Atlas]

No disrespect to anyone but i think you have a mighty good point, and one which i also have to agree with you on, but you are preaching in the wrong topic, this topic is for "Remembrance", all else should put aside for those who wish to express their grief, you might be ultra intelligent and have contacts on the inside but as far as common decency and common sense go you are a neanderthal.

Regards, Danny

First you shock people with terror. They become highly suggestible under those conditions. Then you plant the idea of who did it. People will uncritically accept what they are told by authority figures in a time of great collective distress. Then you direct them back to the terror, the pain and the fear. That locks the ideas into their psyches behind a wall of fear.

I would be more than happy to put all of this into the category of a painful but resolved incident. But it's not. The time for grief is passed. There are 3,000 lost souls who demand justice.

I note that around 2,000 people died when Katrina hit five years ago. The direct impact on the peoples lives was certainly more substantial than in the case of 9/11. So, in terms of overall tragedy, Katrina is on a par. Why is 9/11 so much more psychologically significant? Because it was designed to be? Designed by whom?

[Atlas]

Yes. Yes there is. And on top of that one, there was that other Hitler one (thankfully deleted, it seems), and Random Thoughts AND now this one which is getting hijacked by variations on the same turgid, trite theme. One would think that common decency would make one draw the line at very simple respect.

You've started a worthy thread, ledzepfvr. I would like to add my sympathies to the families who lost loved ones. That's a heavy load to have had to bear, Anjin-san - sorry for your loss. Peace.

When I started carefully studying the destruction of the Twin Towers, I made a commitment to myself that I would never forget that there were people in those buildings. I spent months looking at pictures of the burning buildings, and replaying the videos of the buildings coming down. Over and over, hearing the screams of terror, looking at the shock in peoples eyes as they watched it. Listening to the last words of people inside the buildings as they collapse on them. I've listened to numerous testimonies of people who were inside the buildings and witnessed the terror first hand. I've read the accounts given by first responders on the scene. I heard the heart-wrenching testimonies of surviving family members. I have not depersonalized what happened that day. Have you?

[Patrycja]

Right on cue *sigh*

" I, I, I, I, I..." the pretense that this is not about anything but you and your penchant for spreading your views is clear to all and sundry. Once again trying to goad when the clearly appropriate thing to do was, just for once, control yourself and not steer the thread into areas nobody in this thread appreciates. This is very clear. There really is nothing else to say.

[ninelives]

Right on cue *sigh*

" I, I, I, I, I..." the pretense that this is not about anything but you and your penchant for spreading your views is clear to all and sundry. Once again trying to goad when the clearly appropriate thing to do was, just for once, control yourself and not steer the thread into areas nobody in this thread appreciates. This is very clear. There really is nothing else to say.

Well said and I completely agree.

[ally]

When I started carefully studying the destruction of the Twin Towers, I made a commitment to myself that I would never forget that there were people in those buildings. I spent months looking at pictures of the burning buildings, and replaying the videos of the buildings coming down. Over and over, hearing the screams of terror, looking at the shock in peoples eyes as they watched it. Listening to the last words of people inside the buildings as they collapse on them. I've listened to numerous testimonies of people who were inside the buildings and witnessed the terror first hand. I've read the accounts given by first responders on the scene. I heard the heart-wrenching testimonies of surviving family members. I have not depersonalized what happened that day. Have you?

I don't know and don't really care what your motivation on this thread is but I have to say that I hope you and I never cross paths on Remembrance Day or Veterans Day. Three thousand people died that day and many more have died since. A minutes silence please !