Why didn't they invite John Paul Jones for the Page - Plant "Reunion"

[SteveAJones]

At 7:14 Robert Plant began by saying, "Eh, before we swap phone numbers..."

...then thanked Bill Curbishley for co-managing Jimmy Page & Robert Plant.

[ro_a]

Robert fields these questions alone. Over the years he has stated that he didn't want to share by 1/3 creatively, socially, or financially, and that forward is the opposite of reverse.

I think there is something else at work which isn't discussed, and that is publishing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think remaining members of LZ purchased Robert Plant's share of publishing rights in 1982 as he was re-aligning spiritually and corporately. I think he did it to throw himself out of the nest and fly with his own wings, and perhaps to make things right with his ex wife. He doesn't need Zeppelin money now, and he proved to everyone that he can do it on his own, and for 3x as long. That said, if he had his rightful share according to the laws of creation rather than business, his family would be wealthier. It seems to me Page would have renegotiated to bring Plant back in to Superhype or whatever they called it. I'm not sure about Jones. It's a gentleman's game, and sometimes gentlemen lose and have to move on. Sir Paul can't be pleased about the Jackson estate's share of the Beatles catalog, but he has held his tongue in public. This theory is offered without proof.

[SuperDave]

Interesting state on all of this rokarolla. Who knows? I'm sure someone here can answer this possibly.

[SteveAJones]

Robert fields these questions alone. Over the years he has stated that he didn't want to share by 1/3 creatively, socially, or financially, and that forward is the opposite of reverse.

I think there is something else at work which isn't discussed, and that is publishing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think remaining members of LZ purchased Robert Plant's share of publishing rights in 1982 as he was re-aligning spiritually and corporately. I think he did it to throw himself out of the nest and fly with his own wings, and perhaps to make things right with his ex wife. He doesn't need Zeppelin money now, and he proved to everyone that he can do it on his own, and for 3x as long. That said, if he had his rightful share according to the laws of creation rather than business, his family would be wealthier. It seems to me Page would have renegotiated to bring Plant back in to Superhype or whatever they called it. I'm not sure about Jones. It's a gentleman's game, and sometimes gentlemen lose and have to move on. Sir Paul can't be pleased about the Jackson estate's share of the Beatles catalog, but he has held his tongue in public. This theory is offered without proof.

Robert only sold his rights to receive royalties from sales of Led Zeppelin's back catalog (having launched his solo career

but prior to his1983 divorce). It has not been divulged to whom he sold them, but presumably Atlantic Records with whom Peter Grant was negotiating the terms of Robert's first record deal as a solo artist. Robert retained his publishing rights. It

is fair to say if they had brought JPJ in for the tour the earnings would undoubtedly have had to have been split further, but

there was no guarantee they would tour when he and Jimmy initially reunited for the MTV special.

[missytootsweet]

Robert only sold his rights to receive royalties from sales of Led Zeppelin's back catalog (having launched his solo career

but prior to his1983 divorce). It has not been divulged to whom he sold them, but presumably Atlantic Records with whom Peter Grant was negotiating the terms of Robert's first record deal as a solo artist. Robert retained his publishing rights. It

is fair to say if they had brought JPJ in for the tour the earnings would undoubtedly have had to have been split further, but

there was no guarantee they would tour when he and Jimmy initially reunited for the MTV special.

>>>Robert only sold his rights to receive royalties from sales of Led Zeppelin's back catalog......

Robert retained his publishing rights<<<<

Can you clarify please?

I'm confused here. You mean Robert needed money and gave up his ownership share in Superhype that I presume at the time received the lion's share of $$$$ from the group's original songs? RP, JP, and JPJ were all muti-millionares weren't they,--even in 1983?

And Robert's Pictures at Eleven album from 1982 hit #2 in the U.K. and # 5 in the U.S.

So why would he be worried about his future finances with his first album a platinum success in 3 countries?

Thanks for any further info!......................... missy

[SteveAJones]

>>>Robert only sold his rights to receive royalties from sales of Led Zeppelin's back catalog......

Robert retained his publishing rights<<<<

Can you clarify please?

I'm confused here. You mean Robert needed money and gave up his ownership share in Superhype that I presume at the time received the lion's share of $$$$ from the group's original songs? RP, JP, and JPJ were all muti-millionares weren't they,--even in 1983?

And Robert's Pictures at Eleven album from 1982 hit #2 in the U.K. and # 5 in the U.S.

So why would he be worried about his future finances with his first album a platinum success in 3 countries?

Thanks for any further info!......................... missy

Fine, we'll try this again. Circa 1981-82 he sold his rights to receive royalties from future sales of Led Zeppelin's back catalog. Peter Grant helped secure his first post-Led Zeppelin solo deal and though it's never been publicly divulged to whom he sold the rights presumably it was the label he signed with (Atlantic Records). He retained all other rights, to include royalties from publishing. Since then he has more or less admitted that selling his rights to receive royalties from sales of the back catalog - with the benefit of hindsight - was a short-sighted business decision he came to regret, particularly after the introduction of the compact disc format a few years later. In his defense, the sales forecast for 70s rock albums at the height of New Wave music was bleak and an inevitable if not imminent divorce may have influenced his decision to cash out when he did.

[missytootsweet]

Thanks, I understand now.

So, It could be that Robert Plant never realized how much the band would come to be revered by younger/ future generations. I personally attribute their legandary status (which I put on par with The Beatles) to two separate things.

1.The band made incredibly good music together that transcends fads and labels, in other words timeless.

2. Let's face it, most of the music in the 1980's/1990's/2000's was at best medicore IMO.

I can't think of a single band from that time period that left an impact musically that will hold up for 50 years ala The Beatles or Led Zeppelin.

Back On Topic:

Who knows what kind of thngs were going on behind the scenes almost 20 years ago? Nobody but those invoved in the project directly.

I don't blame Robert or Jimmy P. because as good as JPJ is, I still enjoyed the P/P Unledded project immensely.

The orchestra, Charlie Jones, and especially the joyful drummer Michael Lee all made it work so well!. ..................missy

[spidersandsnakes]

I don't think the internal controversies in the band were as bad as the ones in bands like...say...Black Sabbath between Tony and Ozzy!

[Jahfin]

2. Let's face it, most of the music in the 1980's/1990's/2000's was at best medicore IMO.

I can't think of a single band from that time period that left an impact musically that will hold up for 50 years ala The Beatles or Led Zeppelin.

I beg to differ, there are many great artists that emerged from all of those eras of music. Who will "hold up" 50 years past the point of their inception is impossible to say. In the 80s bands like R.E.M. and U2 made a huge impact on music that is still being felt to this day. They pretty much opened the door for what would later become known as alternative music. In the 90s it was artists like Pearl Jam and Nirvana. Pearl Jam is still going to this day and are continuing to put on outstanding performances as well as releasing new music. Turn on nearly any "Modern Rock" station and you'll soon find that the majority of those artists own a huge debt to "grunge". As for the 00s, it's too soon to tell how they will be remembered in the future but lots of great artists have emerged from that era as well. I love Led Zeppelin as much as the next person but they're not the only band that makes my musical world go 'round. That list would be nearly endless. I'm not saying this is true of you but for some there seems to be some sort of vacuum where Led Zeppelin exists and no other artists (no matter how significant) are allowed to enter. Where they great? Where they groundbreaking? Yes, but they weren't and aren't the only ones.

[missytootsweet]

I beg to differ, there are many great artists that emerged from all of those eras of music. Who will "hold up" 50 years past the point of their inception is impossible to say. In the 80s bands like R.E.M. and U2 made a huge impact on music that is still being felt to this day. They pretty much opened the door for what would later become known as alternative music. I'm not saying this is true of you but for some there seems to be some sort of vacuum where Led Zeppelin exists and no other artists (no matter how significant) are allowed to enter. Where they great? Where they groundbreaking? Yes, but they weren't and aren't the only ones.

Jahfin, I do understand your viewpoint. As soon as I posted I thought to myself, "Gee, that's a sweeping indictment I've made on the state of music over the last 30 years." I'm probably going to get some kickback on that one!

Here's where I was coming from on that viewpoint. All the meaningful and timeless music for me came from bands in the Sixties and Seventies. And absolutely it includes more than Zeppelin. Everything from Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Pat Metheny, Carole King, Fleetwood Mac, The Beach Boys, Stevie Wonder, Pink Floyd, Harry Chapin, Marvin Gaye, The Four Seasons, Michael Franks, Eagles, to Merle Haggard and on and on.

But...with the 80's onward with the exception of Michael Jackson Thriller, (and the bands above ^^ continuing to make music) I never heard much (especially on MTV) that I liked. Duran Duran, Tears for Fear, Wham!, Culture Club, Men at Work, The B52's, the Pretenders etc. Do you remember these bands being played ad nauseum on MTV Jahfin? To each his own, but those groups never grabbed me much. Never listened to much in the Nineties or last ten years because I could see the trend toward Rap and I don't care for rap at all.

The reason I said Led Zeppelin had the timeless impact (similar to the Beatles) was from observing this site. Never would I have guessed there are so many die hard fans that are so young. They weren't even born when the band was rocking it's heart out on stage Nothing wrong with that.

Although, I've seen a couple of younger fans that I might gently remind don't own the band and sure didn't discover them first.

Sorry for the long story, and I hope I didn't bore you to death with it!...... missy

P.S. I discovered P/P Unledded from this site, better late than never. On Topic, so glad I did as even though JPJ isn't on it, it's still a joy to listen to.

[SuperDave]

Couldn't agree with you more Jahfin on this. I have always been a big R.E.M. and U2 fan as I own most of their album and seen both bands several times with U2 at 12 times. Some people just need to open up their minds...musically.

[missytootsweet]

Some people just need to open up their minds...musically.

Now SuperDave that is a little harsh. Don't you think?

I'll listen to anything, I just may not like it. U2 and REM are good. But for me, they are nowhere near the caliber of The Beatles or Led Zeppelin or Yes or half a dozen more bands. But honestly everyone has their different tastes/opinions and it was wrong of me to make a sweeping judgement.

Full Retraction

Let's face it, most of the music in the 1980's/1990's/2000's was at best medicore IMO.

I can't think of a single band from that time period that left an impact musically that will hold up for 50 years ala The Beatles or Led Zeppelin.

Can we all just forget I said it and move on please? I truly didn't mean to ruffle any feathers..................... missy

[SteveAJones]

Can we all just forget I said it and move on please?

If you'd like, though I was inclined to agree with you.

[missytootsweet]

If you'd like, though I was inclined to agree with you.

Why thank-you Mr. SteveAJones. But you surely saw the more I explained, the deeper the hole I seemed to be digging for myself!

Much better to keep the peace in the Led Zeppelin community here..................... missy

[Jahfin]

Jahfin, I do understand your viewpoint. As soon as I posted I thought to myself, "Gee, that's a sweeping indictment I've made on the state of music over the last 30 years." I'm probably going to get some kickback on that one!

Here's where I was coming from on that viewpoint. All the meaningful and timeless music for me came from bands in the Sixties and Seventies. And absolutely it includes more than Zeppelin. Everything from Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, Pat Metheny, Carole King, Fleetwood Mac, The Beach Boys, Stevie Wonder, Pink Floyd, Harry Chapin, Marvin Gaye, The Four Seasons, Michael Franks, Eagles, to Merle Haggard and on and on.

But...with the 80's onward with the exception of Michael Jackson Thriller, (and the bands above ^^ continuing to make music) I never heard much (especially on MTV) that I liked. Duran Duran, Tears for Fear, Wham!, Culture Club, Men at Work, The B52's, the Pretenders etc. Do you remember these bands being played ad nauseum on MTV Jahfin?

Cable didn't come to my neck of the woods in NC until '89 but I do remember MTV being so popular that some of those artists were also successful on radio. That said, there were also programs like Post Modern MTV and 120 Minutes that featured artists like the Dream Syndicate, Miracle Legion, the Cure, the Replacements, etc. Radio also played lots of artists like Lone Justice, Los Lobos, the Long Ryders, Jason & the Scorchers, etc. that didn't fit the synth-pop, skinny-tie mode that was so popular on MTV. While I didn't care for a lot of that type of music, I did like post-punk and New Wave bands such as the Police. I was also heavily into reggae thanks to Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, the Itals, Third World and the like. Then, like now, I sought out the music that I liked despite what was popular on MTV or commercial radio.

To each his own, but those groups never grabbed me much. Never listened to much in the Nineties or last ten years because I could see the trend toward Rap and I don't care for rap at all.

Disco was popular in the 70s but it didn't stop me from listening to the artists I liked back then. I'm not a fan of Rap either (though I don't discount it as a form of music) but it never kept me from seeking out artists I liked in the 80s, 90s or the 00s.

The reason I said Led Zeppelin had the timeless impact (similar to the Beatles) was from observing this site. Never would I have guessed there are so many die hard fans that are so young. They weren't even born when the band was rocking it's heart out on stage Nothing wrong with that.

Of course Led Zeppelin is going to be talked up here, as are bands like the Beatles because this board is rooted in fans of music that came out in the 70s, no matter their age. Thankfully, there are a few of us here that also embrace other kinds of music and even new music. You'll seem to find more open mindedness among the older contingent than you will the younger folks. The younger ones don't seem to realize that there was also shit music in the 60s and 70s too. Led Zeppelin and the Beatles were great and they obviously both had a great impact but they weren't the only ones.

[missytootsweet]

While I didn't care for a lot of that type of music, I did like post-punk and New Wave bands such as the Police. I was also heavily into reggae thanks to Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, the Itals, Third World and the like. Then, like now, I sought out the music that I liked despite what was popular on MTV or commercial radio.

Agreed. The Police I forgot about despite the fact I loved the Synchronicity album. Bob Marley and The Wailers were in a class all their own.

Now, personally I could see them making the 50 year mark for a genre defining group. Also, an important category I overlooked was the dance/club music of the 80's. The SOS Band, Teena Marie, Mtume, all terrific bands if you were into the club scene.

Disco was popular in the 70s but it didn't stop me from listening to the artists I liked back then. I'm not a fan of Rap either (though I don't discount it as a form of music) but it never kept me from seeking out artists I liked in the 80s, 90s or the 00s.

Disco wasn't all bad. Michael Jackson's Off the Wall was a killer album to dance to pre-thriller. In fact Jahfin, I found 2 great disco songs I am going to post on the one hit wonder thread. Why don't you tell me what you think? I thought a lot of disco sucked, but there were a few gems here and there. You may gag on the songs, because I must it's hard for me to get a handle on your musical tastes, but it's fun to try. Maybe you'll like them?

Thankfully, there are a few of us here that also embrace other kinds of music and even new music. You'll seem to find more open mindedness among the older contingent than you will the younger folks.The younger ones don't seem to realize that there was also shit music in the 60s and 70s too. Led Zeppelin and the Beatles were great and they obviously both had a great impact but they weren't the only ones.

I think I embrace new music to a degree. The missing link for me was not having been exposed to much new stuff in the last 20 years which is why I felt the retraction of my original comment was in order.

Oh, and your last comment is spot on. There are a few (not all!) postings I've read that are obsessive IMO and nasty to boot. That's so unecessary. These seem to be some new fans in their twenties that feel since they live and breathe Zeppelin they can look with utter disdain at people like myself who are not uber-obsessed. I feel sometimes like saying ...who do you think you are? I may have only bought 2 albums from the band. But come on. I got them when they were originally released. I was there during their rise! Not because some cool teacher or parent turned me on to a Zep classic radio station in the 1990's. Show a little respect, that's all. I needed to say that. Thank-you for letting me get on my soapbox. I feel better now...... missy (my apologies for being a little off topic, but I felt you deserved a reply)

[spidersandsnakes]

....picking up from where missytootsweet left off....I must agree with her that the music sucked throughout most of the 80s:):)

[Electrophile]

The reason you think a lot of the music sucked in the 80s is because you're basing your opinion on what was all over radio and MTV at the time, which admittedly had a certain aesthetic that didn't appeal to everyone. There was a lot of music, and I think this is Jahfin's point, that WASN'T played on the radio every hour on the hour, or played on MTV every hour on the hour. The same can be said for music today. I don't care for a lot of what's popular, but that doesn't mean what's popular is all there is. I don't even listen to terrestrial radio anymore, and MTV hasn't been on my cable package for years. I rely on the internet and people's recommendations to find great contemporary music to listen to.

[Jahfin]

Agreed. The Police I forgot about despite the fact I loved the Synchronicity album. Bob Marley and The Wailers were in a class all their own.

Now, personally I could see them making the 50 year mark for a genre defining group. Also, an important category I overlooked was the dance/club music of the 80's. The SOS Band, Teena Marie, Mtume, all terrific bands if you were into the club scene.

Can't say that I was. In the 80s I went out to clubs to hear live music but when dance music caught on it pretty much killed the live music scene (at least in my area). To top that off, around the same time the legal drinking age was changed to 21. Both of those factors had a pretty huge impact on the club scene, effectively putting a knife right through the heart of it. DJs were cheaper than hiring bands so the one or two clubs in my area that had previously featured live music either closed their doors or switched over to dance music. When this happened I would drive to other towns just to be able to see a live band perform.

Disco wasn't all bad. Michael Jackson's Off the Wall was a killer album to dance to pre-thriller. In fact Jahfin, I found 2 great disco songs I am going to post on the one hit wonder thread. Why don't you tell me what you think? I thought a lot of disco sucked, but there were a few gems here and there. You may gag on the songs, because I must it's hard for me to get a handle on your musical tastes, but it's fun to try. Maybe you'll like them?

I don't hate dance music or disco but it's not really my cup of tea musically speaking. Same for rap. I appreciate your efforts though. As for my musical tastes, they're always changing and evolving. I like anything that moves me which can mean anything from an old folk record to the avant garde meanderings of Megafaun.

I think I embrace new music to a degree. The missing link for me was not having been exposed to much new stuff in the last 20 years which is why I felt the retraction of my original comment was in order.

There's no need to retract any statements. Despite what some folks seem to believe, we all have the freedom to express our opinions here. It's when it devolves into name calling and bashing when some of us don't agree that is unsettling. And yes, I have been guilty of that in the past but it's something I'm not proud of. That said, it can be very difficult to remain level headed when the same arguments about Robert Plant surface again and again, particularly when some of the people taking part in the debate seem to have no knowledge whatsoever about the very topic they are discussing.

Oh, and your last comment is spot on. There are a few (not all!) postings I've read that are obsessive IMO and nasty to boot. That's so unecessary. These seem to be some new fans in their twenties that feel since they live and breathe Zeppelin they can look with utter disdain at people like myself who are not uber-obsessed. I feel sometimes like saying ...who do you think you are? I may have only bought 2 albums from the band. But come on. I got them when they were originally released. I was there during their rise! Not because some cool teacher or parent turned me on to a Zep classic radio station in the 1990's. Show a little respect, that's all. I needed to say that. Thank-you for letting me get on my soapbox. I feel better now...... missy (my apologies for being a little off topic, but I felt you deserved a reply)

I think that's just a youth thing. When you're young you think you know everything about everything. I think everyone has a place here whether you just heard a song on the radio that you liked or you were at Led Zeppelin's first show. It's the endless arguing and placing blame on Robert Plant for preventing any sort of Led Zeppelin reunion that grows tiresome. If it's meant to happen, it'll happen. No amount of whining is ever going to change that. Even though I didn't get to see it, I'm very glad they played in Ahmet's memory at the 02. For some, that's not even good enough. The greed and selfishness on display here is embarrassing. It's like the Marley lyric, "Give them an inch, they take a yard; Give them a yard, they take a mile..."

[Flyingzepp]

John Paul Jones didn't really fit into this project...Simply put

[spidersandsnakes]

The reason you think a lot of the music sucked in the 80s is because you're basing your opinion on what was all over radio and MTV at the time, which admittedly had a certain aesthetic that didn't appeal to everyone. There was a lot of music, and I think this is Jahfin's point, that WASN'T played on the radio every hour on the hour, or played on MTV every hour on the hour. The same can be said for music today. I don't care for a lot of what's popular, but that doesn't mean what's popular is all there is. I don't even listen to terrestrial radio anymore, and MTV hasn't been on my cable package for years. I rely on the internet and people's recommendations to find great contemporary music to listen to.

Dead wrong.....if there ever was a type of music that RUINED or at least did NOT bring some novelty into music, it came out of the 80s as a whole!!! Luckily, there were VALID band slike The Bangles, The Knack, Blondie, Greg Sage, The Ramones that SAVED the music frrom TOTAL OBLIVION. Radio airplay has nothing to do with my post and neither does MTV:):)

[spidersandsnakes]

John Paul Jones didn't really fit into this project...Simply put

Finally, back on the topic, but pls DO ILLUMINATE me on this :)....I'm really interested !!

[the chase]

Epic Burn by JPJ.

thanks .... never saw the un-cut version of Robert's speach. Plant's part was heavily editted on tbe tv broadcast..

"NEW YORK TIMES TODAY"? seems like the 1st jab at JPJ.... WELL 2ND AFTER THE HERMAM'S HERMITS JAB...

Anyone know what Jones said to the paper that day???? old news now but I always wondered.

never saw RP say "before we exchange phone numbers" either.

sorry, but he acted like a jerk that night.

thanks

[NobodysFaultButJimmys]

I didn't predict my topic to go to this extent!

But to add my 2 cents, I dont think the talent of musicians changed, I think it was the technology, the 80's turned out to be a really cheesy synthesizer pop electric keyboard era, if you see what I mean, that was the craze and yes I think that did destroy all the glory that the bands in the 20 years before the 80's..

[SteveAJones]

"NEW YORK TIMES TODAY"? seems like the 1st jab at JPJ.... WELL 2ND AFTER THE HERMAM'S HERMITS JAB...

Anyone know what Jones said to the paper that day???? old news now but I always wondered.

The induction ceremony was held the night of January 12th, 1995 but I don't show any New York Times Led Zeppelin-specific press coverage that day. However, the New York Times for January 10th published an article by Lisa Robinson titled "Led Zep Legends to Tour". I believe that is the article to which Robert refers, and I believe it was a sarcastic way of him saying "Did you hear the news?"

Robert mentioned Herman's Herman's in a rather dismissive tone because JPJ had worked with them prior to Led Zeppelin. However, they were quite popular in America. Some time later JPJ mentioned that quip didn't get many laughs because of it.

Robert may have been trying to get JPJ to lighten up and when the quip failed to do so Robert became uncomfortable for the rest of the speech. The video seems to attest to this.