zoso80 Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I was glad P/P dropped it after Atlanta. Nothing against Michael Lee, but his groove was just a touch off.The footpedal work - bleh. Plus that damn marching drum snare! Makes it sound all wrong. My top ALS version is Dortmund 1980. "Also recorded by Ted Nugent..." lol Probably the best version of ALS of Zep, but it wa corrected some what with overdubs as the original from this date, which I've heard is a bit sloppy. Although, you could go forward to a very good version during the Page/Plant tour of 1995. They did a great version in Atlanta. Michael Lee did Bonzo proud on this too! Here you go: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul carruthers Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ListenToThis Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 In '80 Bonham early in the tour approached Achilles aggressively, similar to '77. This culminated in his excellent version in Rotterdam. At the next gig in Bremen, a show which he played very loose and creative, the Achilles was quite streamlined. This continued through the rest of the tour. For '77, while I favor 06/21 the most, I think 06/23 is his most aggressive of all time, featuring fills and time signature play at 90% of the breaks, including "ladder-climbs" during Page's ascending progression. I like 04/28 for the best outro (after Plant's scream) - the final studder step combined with Percy's echoing vocal is the definition of audience destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzo_fan Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 All versions mentioned thus far are good. I tend to favor the urgency of the '77 versions. That being said, the Knebworth version on the DVD features Bonzo's best "big fill" that I've heard thus far. One that I would add which wasn't mentioned is 06/22/77 L.A. Bonzo's drumming is similar to 06/21 and 06/23. Jimmy plays a really cool intro, and him breaking a string before the first guitar solo turns out to be a blessing in disguise as he switches to his Deluxe Les Paul for the rest of the song which sounds really cool. Tape quality is rough, which is the only reason I can see for this a show's lack of reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ListenToThis Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 All versions mentioned thus far are good. I tend to favor the urgency of the '77 versions. That being said, the Knebworth version on the DVD features Bonzo's best "big fill" that I've heard thus far. One that I would add which wasn't mentioned is 06/22/77 L.A. Bonzo's drumming is similar to 06/21 and 06/23. Jimmy plays a really cool intro, and him breaking a string before the first guitar solo turns out to be a blessing in disguise as he switches to his Deluxe Les Paul for the rest of the song which sounds really cool. Tape quality is rough, which is the only reason I can see for this a show's lack of reputation. Which fill are you referring to at Knebworth? 06/22 is fantastic, phenomenal performance from Bonham just like the day prior and the day after. Ft. Worth 05/22 Achilles is amazing too (I think its been mentioned). Awesome deviations on the drum patterns towards the later half of the song Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 One that I would add which wasn't mentioned is 06/22/77 L.A. Tape quality is rough, which is the only reason I can see for this a show's lack of reputation. Correct...the 22 June show performance wise is just as good as the 21st or 23rd; if Mike Millard had been rolling tape on the 22nd the show would be just as renowned as Eddie or Badgeholders. Funny that there were at least three tapers in the audience on 22 June and not one captured the complete show (not unlike the New York show on 10 June) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzo_fan Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Which fill are you referring to at Knebworth? 06/22 is fantastic, phenomenal performance from Bonham just like the day prior and the day after. Ft. Worth 05/22 Achilles is amazing too (I think its been mentioned). Awesome deviations on the drum patterns towards the later half of the song I believe it comes just before the "a-a-ah" break. I'll check when I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzo_fan Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Correct...the 22 June show performance wise is just as good as the 21st or 23rd; if Mike Millard had been rolling tape on the 22nd the show would be just as renowned as Eddie or Badgeholders. Funny that there were at least three tapers in the audience on 22 June and not one captured the complete show (not unlike the New York show on 10 June) Yes that is odd. The source that caught the latter part of the show is the most listenable IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melcórë Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 My vote is for 1977.06.23. Second-best -- maybe a slightly better opening few bars, or else just better recording quality at that point -- is 1977.06.21. Jimmy's botched intro on the second night of the L.A. run kind of ruins that one for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayley10 Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Knebworth 4.8.79 hand down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ListenToThis Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 This topic, and this song, is probably my most favorite thing to discuss, so for something like the 3rd time I'll bring it back. I've gotten this down to a bit of a science. Favorite Achilles of.... 1977 1st leg - 04/28 - perfect mix of restraint and chaos. The final crescendo and outro are incredible 2nd leg - 05/22 - Bonzo at the fore. He dominates. Features unique drum patters on the ascending riff during the 2nd half of the song and again features an insane outro 3rd leg - 07/17 - Perhaps the last legendary show from Bonham. He exaggerates and elongates the drum fills at every turn and the simple but highly effective snare roll during the big break is perfect 1979 08/04 - all members motivated to impress and the key piece Mr. Bonham is in great form 1980 06/29 - The tightest version ever. No bum notes, no forgetting what part of the song they are supposed to be playing. Perfect timing like a machine, each instrument is played impeccably. Bonham hammers away relentlessly and closes with the most simple yet perfect drum fill. Jimmy's fingers move with minimal effort and maximum tone. Jonesy here is at the fore, playing fantastic scales and underlining the bass drum with purpose. The complete opposite of the '77 versions, which are exciting for their looseness. This version pummels the listener and reflects the maturity of the band, veterans at their craft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Favorite Achilles of.... 1977 1st leg - 04/28 - perfect mix of restraint and chaos. The final crescendo and outro are incredible 2nd leg - 05/22 - Bonzo at the fore. He dominates. Features unique drum patters on the ascending riff during the 2nd half of the song and again features an insane outro 3rd leg - 07/17 - Perhaps the last legendary show from Bonham. He exaggerates and elongates the drum fills at every turn and the simple but highly effective snare roll during the big break is perfect Too bad Page had to fuck it up in Seattle by blowing his cue for the first 'chorus', pretty much ruins the whole "Achilles" performance for me. Generally speaking though, yer right, John Bonham owns the Seattle '77 gig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso80 Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 I have mixed feelings on the 1995 renditions of Achilles. It was exciting to hear the song in the 1990s, however... Micheal Lee's feel wasn't quite right. Plus, I've always disliked the sound of his kit and his choice of cymbals. Thus with Plant's voice thinness and Micheal Lee's kit... it just wasn't the same. A nice try nonetheless... Probably the best version of ALS of Zep, but it wa corrected some what with overdubs as the original from this date, which I've heard is a bit sloppy. Although, you could go forward to a very good version during the Page/Plant tour of 1995. They did a great version in Atlanta. Michael Lee did Bonzo proud on this too! Here you go: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And You Know How It Is? Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but just listened to 8/11/79 again...IMHO, it's pretty good. I think where it turns a little is really the last minute of the song, when Robert goes into the Ah's a little early (which is forgivable, as Jimmy was sort of playing that riff it as it seemed he was trying to build it where Robert would join in, in another 30 seconds or so, as this version is exactly 9 minutes long). Then the outro at the very end, Jimmy has trouble with. But, outside that last 60-90 seconds, I find it a very enjoyable, compact 9 minute performance!Of course, 8/4/79 is better, but 8/11/79 is very under rated compared to the slagging it normally gets compared to 8/4/79! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but just listened to 8/11/79 again...IMHO, it's pretty good. I think where it turns a little is really the last minute of the song, when Robert goes into the Ah's a little early (which is forgivable, as Jimmy was sort of playing that riff it as it seemed he was trying to build it where Robert would join in, in another 30 seconds or so, as this version is exactly 9 minutes long). Then the outro at the very end, Jimmy has trouble with. But, outside that last 60-90 seconds, I find it a very enjoyable, compact 9 minute performance! Of course, 8/4/79 is better, but 8/11/79 is very under rated compared to the slagging it normally gets compared to 8/4/79! Page also broke a string near the end of ALS on 11 August, which explains the nessed up outro. He broke a few strings at that gig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And You Know How It Is? Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Page also broke a string near the end of ALS on 11 August, which explains the nessed up outro. He broke a few strings at that gig And that brings up a great point Nutrocker: the 8/11/79 gig in general isn't as bad as people claim. Very unfortunate Jimmy breaks the guitar strings at the end of OTHAFA and ALS. Plus the technical difficulties during OTHAFA as well as MMH, lead to this impression the show was inferior to 8/4/79. Sure, we all can pick on Jimmy botching the WLL solo on 8/11, but when I compare 8/4 to 8/11 overall, I really don't see one show being that much better than the other. 8/4 wins because we get TYG and Heartbreaker. Yes, a shame we don't get either on 8/11, but what an enjoyable finish on 8/11 to get LTBB which we didn't get 8/4 as part of WLL, and then that banshee CB as an encore...I just think 8/11 isn't that inferior to 8/4 at all!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Dounim Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 I like 08/11 only up through Kashmir. It was all pretty good up to that point. Then Jimmy just seems to run out of steam until CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ListenToThis Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 In a bow to Nutrocker and Sue the 1977/06/27 version is pretty sweet based on Bonham's throwing caution to the wind, and the cut is minimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilsoncb420 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 I like 08/11 only up through Kashmir. It was all pretty good up to that point. Then Jimmy just seems to run out of steam until CB. "Steam". So that is what they call it these days! Or maybe by that point his engine had a little too much steam by Kashmir? Lol jk with you. I totally agree with you about that statement, but IMO the Achilles from 8/11 is an enjoyable listen, and at least a decent performance of the song, considering Jimmy in those final years. The last time I watched it on my dvd-rip, i was actually surprised how good it is, considering this shows reputation on these FANATIC boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilsoncb420 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 My vote goes to 5/30/77. Actually, it is a slop-fest, but I like it. A lot. The energy is there. Damn I'd love to go back in time and catch the tour from that date onward in '77, even 'til the end of 77. I'd come back to the present after that, considering the hiatus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutrocker Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 "Steam". So that is what they call it these days! Or maybe by that point his engine had a little too much steam by Kashmir? Lol jk with you. I totally agree with you about that statement, but IMO the Achilles from 8/11 is an enjoyable listen, and at least a decent performance of the song, considering Jimmy in those final years. The last time I watched it on my dvd-rip, i was actually surprised how good it is, considering this shows reputation on these FANATIC boards. Thing is, Wilson, ya gotta watch 4/8/79 and 11/4/79 ALS back to back...night and day IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilsoncb420 Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 that is like the difference between the surface of the sun and a nuclear winter. ok too far with that. 8/4 would have been GREAT without the studio harmonics added on "DVD", JIMMY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirchzep27 Posted August 14, 2013 Share Posted August 14, 2013 In regards to the two knebworth shows, the different Achilles are my main critique, written in sand. I have the first show on vinyl and second show on video tape, the one that circulated record conventions. The cover was a photocopy on orange paper, taped to video cassette box. Looking back, I watched the horrible quality video much more than listening to the records, it was great to see this show and probably best bootleg buy, as it was cheap. As mentioned above about Kashmir footage for DVD, the same is done with Achilles, some of those painful grimaces of jimmy page are actually when he is messin up on the second show. I think The best Achilles.....I don't know, but the the one I've listened to the most is Zurich, first zeppelin show I bought on cd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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