Top Topham and the New Yardbirds

[Joe Bloggs]

"Matt: I’ve heard rumors that you were approached by Jimmy Page to join Led Zeppelin as the second guitarist in the band. Can you address those and put a rest to that story either way?

Top Topham: Well this is what happened,in 1968 I was making Ascension Heights, my album with Blue Horizon records (CBS), with Mike Vernon as the producer. I received three telegrams, which I still have, from Peter Grant and Jimmy Page,expressing an urgency to get in touch with them,one of these said “great news for you.” I called them from our local telephone box in Kingston on Thames, Surrey, we didn’t have a phone in those days, and I spoke to Jimmy who I saw reasonably regularly. He said he wanted to reform under the name of the New Yardbirds and hit America, and asked if I would be interested.

Wait for it, I said no. As I was writing and playing on my own album at that time it seemed like the right choice. Whether he was intending on me being in the band, I know not. It was a flurry of ideas and I would think at that time as he owned the Yardbirds name, which was a very clever move. Also, it’s a fact that a pre-Zeppelin album exists under the name the New Yardbirds, and includes much of the same as early Zepp. I believe this has never been released. Who knows? Interestingly, Robert Plant and the Band of Joy played in our interval at Mothers in Birmingham ’67-’68. I was in the Fox and they used my Marshall amp for the gigs. Jimmy played with Duster Bennett and I at an Epsom Art school dance in 64. I remember us all raving about Earl Hooker. I think he played some slide on that gig as well. What goes around comes around, it was all normal really."

http://guitarinternational.com/2011/04/20/top-topham-interview-the-original-yardbirds-guitar-hero/

Interesting...

1) Topham confirms he was approached to join the New Yardbirds / Led Zeppelin

2) There is an unreleased album of New Yardbirds material.

3) Jimmy Page owned the Yardbirds name, contrary to a claim made by Chris Dreja.

Edited April 24, 2011 by TeaBob

[SuperDave]

Interesting info if all of this is true. But it's been over forty years. Who knows? The unreleased New Yardbirds material is most interesting to say the least.

[SteveAJones]

Topham could be referring to The Yardbirds April 3-5 1968 sessions at Columbia Studios in New York. They recorded 'Taking A Hold On Me' (Apr 3rd), 'Spanish Blood' and 'Knowing That I'm Losing You' (Apr 4th), 'Aron Knows' (two versions) and 'My Baby' (Apr 5th). 'Knowing That I'm Losing You' bears lyrical similarities to 'Tangerine'. Or perhaps he's referring to the sessions for PJ Proby's 'Three Week Hero'. In any event, it's not a fact a pre-Zeppelin album exists under the name The New Yardbirds which includes much of the same as early Zepp.

Insofar as Page owning the name The Yardbirds it seems all Dreja had actually permitted was the right to use it whilst fulfilling a contractually obligated tour of Scandanavia (Sept '68). The Page, Jones, Plant, Bonham lineup did so and when they returned to the UK it was clear to Jimmy if not them all that a new name was needed. On October 18, 1968 at the Marquee in London (just their second UK date) Page & Grant met with graphic artist George Hardie prior to the show. Jimmy showed Hardie his concept for the first album cover depicting the Hindenburg disaster. Meanwhile, they were billed for that show incorrectly as "The British Debut of The Yardbirds" and Dreja claims a ceast and desist order was filed to prevent further use of The Yardbirds name. My point is a name change was inevitable. As a by the way, if Page owned the name then Dreja/McCarty would need permission

from him to continue as they do touring as The Yardbirds. That isn't the case, and it's important to note they are still friends.

Insofar as Topham having been recruited by Page as a second guitarist for Led Zeppelin in 1968 it's always been clear to me Page's original vision was a four-piece band and no consideration was made for a second guitarist until the mid-70s when the songs were becoming more complex with overdubs and what not. Ronnie Wood has made similar claims, going so far in his book to suggest HE was the FIRST guitarist Peter Grant considered for Led Zeppelin, so it just goes to show you can't believe

everything you hear.

[Joe Bloggs]

Interesting info if all of this is true. But it's been over forty years. Who knows? The unreleased New Yardbirds material is most interesting to say the least.

Yes SuperDave, most interesting. Would love to see his telegrams.

[Otto Masson]

Thanks for posting, TeaBob.

Excellent response from you, Steve, but before we completely brush this off there's still this circumstance that Topham does say he actually has the telegrams. If so, I wonder about when exactly he was contacted by Jimmy. I agree that Jimmy's main musical ideas were certainly formed by early 1968 (I'd actually say by 1967), but that still doesn't resolve everything. He did say once that it was when he heard Bonzo that he knew he would tip the scales in favor of heavy blues - and Jimmy seems actually to have liked it when he and Jeff were both in the band (Jeff at the time probably didn't).

Perhaps Topham could become a footnote in the first chapter of the Led Zeppelin saga after all. It's quite understandable that he wouldn't remember very precisely about things like the right to the band name after all this time has elapsed - Topham wasn't even making music from about 1970-1988. But there is another inconsistency that caught my eye when I briefly looked around for information: Ascension Heights was released in January 1970 and recorded at CBS studios in October 1969, as you can read HERE He still could have been busy doing sessions at the time in 1968, and then later he just mixes things up.

[SuperDave]

Great detailed info as usual Steve. Thanks for clarifying. Quite interesting. I'm sure there is more that was involved with this than we know about...or at least some of us.

[Joe Bloggs]

Thanks for posting, TeaBob.

Topham does say he actually has the telegrams. If so, I wonder about when exactly he was contacted by Jimmy. I agree that Jimmy's main musical ideas were certainly formed by early 1968 (I'd actually say by 1967), but that still doesn't resolve everything. He did say once that it was when he heard Bonzo that he knew he would tip the scales in favor of heavy blues - and Jimmy seems actually to have liked it when he and Jeff were both in the band (Jeff at the time probably didn't).

Perhaps Topham could become a footnote in the first chapter of the Led Zeppelin saga after all. It's quite understandable that he wouldn't remember very precisely about things like the right to the band name after all this time has elapsed - Topham wasn't even making music from about 1970-1988. But there is another inconsistency that caught my eye when I briefly looked around for information: Ascension Heights was released in January 1970 and recorded at CBS studios in October 1969, as you can read HERE He still could have been busy doing sessions at the time in 1968, and then later he just mixes things up.

Topham was in a band in 1968 called The Fox. His last gig with them was on the 16th November 1968 at the Roundhouse, opening for the Who. Incidentally, Led Zeppelin played there exactly one week earlier on the 9th. After leaving The Fox, Topham worked as a hospital porter for one week, before being contacted by producer Mike Vernon for session work for Blue Horizon. His first sessions were for a Duster Bennett album (Bright Lights, Big City), and also for Christine Perfect of Chicken Shack, and around that time he started putting together songs for his debut album. Since Led Zeppelin did not tour the US until late December, it would be safe to assume the telegrams were sent sometime in late November - early December.

Edited April 25, 2011 by TeaBob

[Otto Masson]

Another great post by Otto.

Topham was in a band in 1968 called The Fox. His last gig with them was on the 16th November 1968 at the Roundhouse, opening for the Who. Incidentally, Led Zeppelin played there exactly one week earlier on the 9th. After leaving The Fox, Topham worked as a hospital porter for one week, before being contacted by producer Mike Vernon for session work for Blue Horizon. His first sessions were for a Duster Bennett album (Bright Lights, Big City), and also for Christine Perfect of Chicken Shack, and around that time he started putting together songs for his debut album. Since Led Zeppelin did not tour the US until late December, it would be safe to assume the telegrams were sent sometime in late November - early December.

Thanks for the additional information, TB. I must say I find it extremely unlikely that Jimmy would have been interested in getting Topham on board in November or December. The band had already recorded the first album then (in October) and had been doing lots of gigs, everything worked superbly, etc. Let's read carefully what Topham has to say about this:

Well this is what happened,in 1968 I was making Ascension Heights, my album with Blue Horizon records (CBS), with Mike Vernon as the producer. I received three telegrams, which I still have, from Peter Grant and Jimmy Page,expressing an urgency to get in touch with them,one of these said “great news for you.” I called them from our local telephone box in Kingston on Thames, Surrey, we didn’t have a phone in those days, and I spoke to Jimmy who I saw reasonably regularly. He said he wanted to reform under the name of the New Yardbirds and hit America, and asked if I would be interested.

Wait for it, I said no. As I was writing and playing on my own album at that time it seemed like the right choice. Whether he was intending on me being in the band, I know not. It was a flurry of ideas and I would think at that time as he owned the Yardbirds name, which was a very clever move.

We have references to a few things there. Peter Grant was always going to manage the new band, so that doesn't help in narrowing things down. And more importantly, it was always Page's intention to tour America - that we know from interviews.

So, to conclude, the most likely thing is that Page contacted Topham (if he did) right after Chris Dreja decided he wouldn't be a part of the New Yardbirds, in early August - at some point between August 2nd - August 20th. The band was still being formed then. Bonham only decided to accept the offer to join about a week before the first rehearsal, which took place on August 19th or August 20th, something like that.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Otto Masson

[Joe Bloggs]

Thanks for the additional information, TB. I must say I find it extremely unlikely that Jimmy would have been interested in getting Topham on board in November or December. The band had already recorded the first album then (in October) and had been doing lots of gigs, everything worked superbly, etc. Let's read carefully what Topham has to say about this:

Well this is what happened,in 1968 I was making Ascension Heights, my album with Blue Horizon records (CBS), with Mike Vernon as the producer. I received three telegrams, which I still have, from Peter Grant and Jimmy Page,expressing an urgency to get in touch with them,one of these said “great news for you.” I called them from our local telephone box in Kingston on Thames, Surrey, we didn’t have a phone in those days, and I spoke to Jimmy who I saw reasonably regularly. He said he wanted to reform under the name of the New Yardbirds and hit America, and asked if I would be interested.

Wait for it, I said no. As I was writing and playing on my own album at that time it seemed like the right choice. Whether he was intending on me being in the band, I know not. It was a flurry of ideas and I would think at that time as he owned the Yardbirds name, which was a very clever move.

We have references to a few things there. Peter Grant was always going to manage the new band, so that doesn't help in narrowing things down. And more importantly, it was always Page's intention to tour America - that we know from interviews.

So, to conclude, the most likely thing is that Page contacted Topham (if he did) right after Chris Dreja decided he wouldn't be a part of the New Yardbirds, in early August - at some point between August 2nd - August 20th. The band was still being formed then. Bonham only decided to accept the offer to join about a week before the first rehearsal, which took place on August 19th or August 20th, something like that.

The problem with that, is Ascension Heights and Blue Horizon records - came much later than August 20

[Otto Masson]

The problem with that, is Ascension Heights and Blue Horizon records - came much later than August 20

Well, that's exactly the problem I pointed out earlier with Topham's story. If he's telling the truth (and again, he says he can still produce the telegrams), he's certainly mixing things up. He may have been busy when they contacted him, but it wasn't his solo record. Ascension Heights was recorded when Led Zeppelin had been going for more than a year, and were about to release Led Zeppelin II (October 31st, 1969).

One more reason why I think this occurred in early August 1968, is that he refers to the New Yardbirds. And that does narrow it down quite a bit. The name change to Led Zeppelin was proclaimed on October 19, 1968.

[Joe Bloggs]

Well, that's exactly the problem I pointed out earlier with Topham's story. If he's telling the truth (and again, he says he can still produce the telegrams), he's certainly mixing things up. He may have been busy when they contacted him, but it wasn't his solo record. Ascension Heights was recorded when Led Zeppelin had been going for more than a year, and were about to release Led Zeppelin II (October 31st, 1969).

One more reason why I think this occurred in early August 1968, is that he refers to the New Yardbirds. And that does narrow it down quite a bit. The name change to Led Zeppelin was proclaimed on October 19, 1968.

They may have changed the name on 19th October but according to a number of books, including the Concert File, they were still being billed as The Yardbirds up to 13th December at some venues.

[Otto Masson]

They may have changed the name on 19th October but according to a number of books, including the Concert File, they were still being billed as The Yardbirds up to 13th December at some venues.

You are not seeing my reasoning here, TB. Notice how Topham himself thinks he was working on Ascension Heights in 1968. He wasn't. He did that a year later, in October 1969.

The thing is, not remembering such things precisely, when exactly they were doing this or that, is not at all unusual for a musician. Looking at those telegrams on the other hand, he will see the year on there - and that he remembers. That may seem strange, but it really isn't. He was simply working on music all the time in those years, as was everybody in the business - there wasn't such a lot of money in it then, and people had to work a lot, so all they remember is what they did, and very roughly when. They usually don't have a scholarly interest in it like some of us.

So the point you make there is really inessential, but anyway, they wouldn't ask somebody to join a band called the New Yardbirds after they have already proclaimed the name change to the press.

I hope this clarifies my logic.

Aside from that, let me add that if Jimmy and Peter Grant had done this at any later point than August 1968, the other members of Led Zeppelin and several other people would have known about it, and thus we would have known about it much earlier. And the remaining question: why didn't they try to get another guitarist, when Topham didn't want to join? Simply because getting Bonzo was the main priority at the time, and Jimmy was a guitarist himself. And when they first practiced together, days after Bonzo joined, the room fucking exploded, and there was much happiness.

[sixpense]

The only remote possibility is Page adding a second guitarist. This was a rumour I have heard over the years but with no confirmation. The comment of another LZ unreleased lp is garbage. There was not even time to record one. The band members were in place around mid Aug 68 leving only a couple of weeks at best to rehearse material for the tour starting on Sept 7 1968. How does Top Topham have all this "inside information"? He doesn't.

Edited April 25, 2011 by sixpense

[Otto Masson]

The only remote possibility is Page adding a second guitarist. This was a rumour I have heard over the years but with no confirmation. The comment of another LZ unreleased lp is garbage. There was not even time to record one. The band members were in place around mid Aug 68 leving only a couple of weeks at best to rehearse material for the tour starting on Sept 7 1968. How does Top Topham have all this "inside information"? He doesn't.

What he says about an unreleased album is certainly wrong, I agree. And we have to treat his whole story with a healthy dosis of skepticism, at least until we actually get further confirmation that he really was contacted - there are a lot of stories, and not all of them are true. Speaking for myself, my conjecturing above is not something I actually believe at this stage, as it's all completely dependent on further confirmation.

What he says about that album is still not necessarily an outright lie, and he doesn't really claim any access to inside information. He does say he met Jimmy fairly regularly at the time, and if they met, say, in May or June, Jimmy might have said something like, 'yeah we were just recording a few numbers' - meaning the recordings Steve referred to earlier. He probably did know and meet Jimmy every now and then. The blues guitarists and record collectors in and around London that were already into the blues by 1962-1963 pretty much all knew each other, although Topham was very young at the time, only 14 or 15 (Jimmy was 18), which in fact is why he was forced to leave The Yardbirds.

[sixpense]

What he says about an unreleased album is certainly wrong, I agree. And we have to treat his whole story with a healthy dosis of skepticism, at least until we actually get further confirmation that he really was contacted - there are a lot of stories, and not all of them are true. Speaking for myself, my conjecturing above is not something I actually believe at this stage, as it's all completely dependent on further confirmation.

What he says about that album is still not necessarily an outright lie, and he doesn't really claim any access to inside information. He does say he met Jimmy fairly regularly at the time, and if they met, say, in May or June, Jimmy might have said something like, 'yeah we were just recording a few numbers' - meaning the recordings Steve referred to earlier. He probably did know and meet Jimmy every now and then. The blues guitarists and record collectors in and around London that were already into the blues by 1962-1963 pretty much all knew each other, although Topham was very young at the time, only 14 or 15 (Jimmy was 18), which in fact is why he was forced to leave The Yardbirds.

"Also, it's a fact that a pre-Zeppelin album exists under the name the New Yardbirds, and includes much of the same as early Zepp"

(IMHO) If you can't prove it, its a lie. Bottom Line. From March 28 1968 to July 7 68, the Yardbirds were on an American tour. Yes, there were dates in between shows. However, the only documented studio work was Jimmy with the Yardbirds. (Not the New Yardbirds) Plant, Jones and Bonham were not in the picture. I believe some of those tracks ended up on some compilations. There was no Good Times, Bad Times, You Shook Me, etc...

This is just like the bs story of "Ron Wood being asked to join led zep".

People trying to jump on the bandwagon.

Edited April 27, 2011 by sixpense

[Otto Masson]

Has anybody tried to find more information on this or even see if this can be verified? Since posting the above I have found out that Top Topham was close friends with Chris Dreja, which would seem to support my conjecturing that it must have happened right after Chris decided to leave the band like the others, and before Jimmy got Bonham to join ... if you think about it, it's also pretty much inconceivable that Jimmy and Peter would have sent three telegrams to him at any other time: things simply had to happen very quickly at that point. Of course, the other possibility is that Topham's story is all just bullshit.

[DAS]

Has anyone compiled a list of all the people who said no to joining The New Yardbirds? It just seems to go on and on.

[Melcórë]

Has anyone compiled a list of all the people who said no to joining The New Yardbirds? It just seems to go on and on.

Jimmy offered me a spot on drums, but I had to use the bog and missed my chance.

[DAS]

Very nice! I'll add you to the list.