Osama bin Laden DEAD

[Electrophile]

BTW, the one thing about all this that has sickened me is the opportunistic patriotism. People who don't give two shits about the flag, or patriotism, or our soldiers all of a sudden turning into overly jingoistic, wannabe Yankee Doodles. I saw dozens of houses flying the American flag yesterday that weren't flying them last week, and today they were all put away.

People are only patriotic in this country anymore when they can use it to assert superiority over another person or country. Bin Laden's dead, so it's time to wave the flag and now it's time to put it away until Memorial Day, and then we'll put it away again until the 4th of July.....rinse, lather, repeat.

These are the same people who if you ask them who their Congresscritters are, couldn't tell you. I hate that. Either fly the flag every day, all day (weather permitting) or don't fly it at all.

[Walesdad]

The peoples of TunisiA, Egypt, Lybia, etc. are fighting against Western style CORRUPTION that has long infiltrated their countries.....including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait......CAN'T WAIT TILL THEY ALL TOPPLE:)!!

Western style corruption?Spidersandsnakes,you have got to be joking.Surely what the people you mentioned have suffered under and are sick of is islamic totalatarian corruption.You know the one,no free elections,states of emergency lasting decades,all the top government jobs handed out to members of the rulers family,etc.What these people want is really what we in the civilised world take for granted.It's called freedom.I hope they get it and hold on to it.

[Hotplant]

Peace to all would be lovely .x

Indeed, and let's hope the 'retaliation' isn't on your land. The UK is on their list of threats ..x

[Knebby]

I hope so too HP - we have had terrorism on our shores since the 1970s - it ain't no Shangri-La xx

[happiness]

Strive for mutual respect? Perhaps on the playground, but not on the world stage where striving to attain national security objectives should be the goal.

Love and pacifism are not the same, but neither love nor pacifism will prevail with an enemy seeking your annihilation. Kill or be killed is the brutal reality.

Very true and way too many people miss that point and regarding that King quote, flashlights exist for a reason.

[Silver Rider]

I'm just glad he is dead. Many Muslims aren't happy with the U.S. but when aren't they? The fact that Pakistan "didn't know" he was hiding out there is bs. He a.) was on military property and b.) was a mile down the road from a military base and they didn't know he was there? C'mon man! Do they think we are stupid? We embarrassed them; I think that's why they are upset we went in without "permission."

I can understand the residents of the city not knowing but he had been there for two years and they had no idea? I highly doubt it.

It is possible that the property was rented or purchased by someone who was not recognized by the Pakistani government as an associate of Bin Laden. He could have accessed the area under the secret protection of civilians unknown to the Pakistani government.

One of his neighbors had only recently moved there to escape the congestion of the city of Lahore. As he live-blogged the event, it was apparent that he had only at that moment discovered that Bin Laden lived nearby.

Man unknowingly live-blogs Bin Laden operation

2.timesdispatch.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bin Laden compound could yield big intelligence harvest

US working 'with great dispatch' on thousands of documents, officials say

msnbc.msn.com

White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters Tuesday that the information was believed to break down into three categories:

• "Evidence of planned attacks."
• "Information that could lead to other high-value targets or networks that we don't know about."
• "The sustaining network for bin Laden himself in Pakistan — what allowed him to live in that compound as long as he did."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

U.S. officials said the materials included details of al-Qaida surveillance of Heathrow Airport in London and financial institutions in New York, Newark, N.J., and Washington, as well as details of possible planned al-Qaida attacks in New York Harbor.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Silver Rider

[Hotplant]

He sure had a nifty little garden growing there on his "mansion" grounds. Including pretty rows of cabbage and...pot!

If that's a mansion I'd hate to see a single-wide there. < yes sad attempt at humor, I know.

[Aquamarine]

I don't see how you can compare the morality of a person who gloats in print over the demise of a mass murderer of innocent people.

I just spelled out the parallels. It's not a question of actions or of scale but of morality. I'm not defending Obama, for heavens' sake! But wrong is wrong is wrong.

[MrZoSo]

I just spelled out the parallels. It's not a question of actions or of scale but of morality. I'm not defending Obama, for heavens' sake! But wrong is wrong is wrong.

I realize you are not defending bin loaden. No where did I say you were. I just do not understand how (or why) you would care to make a moral comparison in this regard.

Edit: wait....Obama???

Edited May 3, 2011 by MrZoSo

[Aquamarine]

I realize you are not defending bin loaden. No where did I say you were. I just do not understand how (or why) you would care to make a moral comparison in this regard.

Edit: wait....Obama???

I'd read so many articles bitching about Obama this morning, he was obviously even more on my mind than OBL. And I didn't defend him either, though I should have. Anyway, I think this is another of those agree-to-disagree deals.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Aquamarine

[MrZoSo]

I'd read so many articles bitching about Obama this morning, he was obviously even more on my mind than OBL. And I didn't defend him either, though I should have. Anyway, I think this is another of those agree-to-disagree deals.

lol Ok...Got me a bit nervous there...I understand now a bit more where you were going. Yes, I agree. We will disagree here. In my mind, this monster of his own free will lived by the sword, and the POTUS fulfilled his destiny to die by it.

[Silver Rider]

So where is the " photographic evidence of his dead body"?

With something as serious and far reaching as this I think most sane people, after all the hysteria is over, would require some tangable hard evidence to back up the usual lies that all politicians are prone to tell.

Not saying it didnt happen but I want to see some proof, talk is cheap.

(I only use tin foil to wrap up the turkey, otherwise my head gets to dam hot. LOL)

msnbc.msn.com

CIA director: Bin Laden death photo to be released

But Panetta says that the ultimate decision rests with the White House

Asked by Reuters about the remarks, a White House spokesman said no decision had been made about releasing images of bin Laden dead.

The White House had earlier expressed concerns about making any death images of bin Laden public, considering the nature of his fatal wounds. U.S. officials say the still-secret photographic evidence shows a precision kill shot above his left eye, which blew away part of his skull. He was also shot in the chest, they said.

The White House said the photograph of a dead Osama bin Laden is "gruesome" and that "it could be inflammatory" if released.

White House press secretary Jay Carney said the White House is mulling whether to make the photo public, but he said officials are concerned about the "sensitivity" of doing so. Carney said there is a discussion internally about the most appropriate way to handle but "there is not some roiling debate here about this."

Edited May 4, 2011 by Silver Rider

[MrZoSo]

And the only words in my post were King's. If you can find me a more appropriate time to post that quote, I'd love to know it.

The rejoicing and flag-waving is sickening. It is only paving the way to the death of more, and more, and more.

And anyone who wants to spit back at me may like to remember that terrorism didn't begin with 9/11. Others in the world have suffered it for years.

I personally think the ones who think this is appropriate behaviour are the ones who are on thin ice.

No, they were not just MLK's words. I don't see anything sickening about being patriotic. Especially when it's in relation to defeating an enemy who's sole purpose is to kill innocent people for his own amusement.

[Hotplant]

^

[Strider]

I dont understand. If they kill, they are terrorists, if some of USA kills, its a hero.

I dont understand how people still thinking that it wasnt a plan of Bush to take oil from Irak.

10 YEARS OF BRAIN WASH. Very stupids

Oh yeah, now I remember why I stopped posting on any political threads in the Ramble On forum...because of garbage like this. Seriously, I have no idea how old you are, blackfire, but if this is really how you see things, then maybe the terrorists have already won. I'm not even going to waste my breath(or at least, my typing fingers) rebutting your silly points, as it's obvious that it wouldn't do any good.

Liberals like Liz will then seek to prosecute those responsible for his death.

Well, that's a little unfair, isn't it Steve? It wasn't even Liz that was questioning Osama's death; it was cate. And why does this have to be a Lib vs. Con thing; I think of myself as liberal and have no problem with the death of Osama.

Anyway, the main reason I came back to this thread was to post an article that parallels the excellent one you posted earlier; it was on page 3 of today's Los Angeles Times.

Al Qaeda loses sway in Arab world

In the revolutions in the Middle East and North Africa, Arabs have found new ways to change their circumstances without waging a 'holy war.'

By Jeffrey Fleishman, Los Angeles Times

Reporting from Cairo—

The austere image of a tall, turbaned man battling the West from a cave inspired young Islamist warriors for years. But when Osama bin Laden died, his virulent brand of jihad had been all but extinguished by the "Arab Spring" that found more potent and peaceful ways to reshape the world.

Al Qaeda-inspired militants still roam the mountains of Yemen and along the dangerous coast of Somalia. For many Arabs, though, Bin Laden's appeal had waned in the lexicon of Facebook and Twitter; he had become akin to an oldies rock 'n' roll act, an antiquated icon in a new era of revolution.

The pro-democracy movements that overthrew the autocratic regimes in Tunisia and Egypt accomplished in weeks what militants couldn't in decades. Radical and ultraconservative Muslims temper their screeds these days to speak to a Middle East and North Africa that crave jobs and freedoms over religious extremism and "holy war" that have led to promises of paradise but few earthly rewards.

"Many of us never really understood what exactly is jihad," said Nader Hazem, a 27-year-old engineer in Cairo. "Blowing ourselves up anywhere there is an infidel? And what will it lead to? What will Islam gain if Bin Laden is successful with every attack against Western targets he plans?"

That is not to suggest that Bin Laden's philosophy has lost all resonance. The cafe bombing that killed 16 people in Morocco last week is testament to the stunning brutality that can rip through a city street. Before NATO airstrikes against Moammar Kadafi's forces last month, a Libyan rebel said that if the West didn't help, he and others might turn to Al Qaeda as a last resort.

Weeks later, with French jets and U.S. missiles streaking the sky, it was American flags, not posters of Bin Laden, that fluttered during Friday prayers in the rebel capital of Benghazi.

The Arab world has changed much since Sept. 11, 2001, when many across the Mideast cheered as the World Trade Center towers collapsed. The U.S.-led invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq spurred thousands more young Muslim men toward Al Qaeda training camps in the rugged terrain of Pakistan. But years of jihad proved bloody, fruitless and, in a large sense, counterproductive. Suicide bombers in Baghdad targeted not only infidels but also fellow Muslims, leading to disillusionment and the gradual erosion of Bin Laden's mystique.

"We are so glad to hear that news," said Sheik Muhammed Hayis from Iraq's Anbar province, once a stronghold of Al Qaeda disciples. "All orphans, widows and people who suffered that butcher should be happy now.... The killing of Bin Laden is victory for all humanity, not only for Americans."

Col. Raad Ali, who helped lead the Sunni fight against the Al Qaeda affiliate in west Baghdad in 2007, said the group's religious extremism and indiscriminate killing cost it support not long after its fighters had been welcomed.

"At the beginning, they talked about very different things, about liberation and freedom and kicking out the Americans and said, 'We will help you,' " Ali said. "Many Iraqis believed them, but after a while Iraqis discovered this was a lie. And they discovered they [Qaeda] were big killers. The group killed thousands of Sunnis and Shiites."

The decline in Bin Laden's allure has been dramatic. A survey done by the Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project found that in 2003 Bin Laden had the support of 56% of Jordanians. By this year, that figure had dropped to 13%. Over the same years in Indonesia, those numbers fell from 59% to 26%. And in Turkey, which ranks high in anti-American attitudes, confidence in Bin Laden fell from 15% to 3%.

Yet some predict Bin Laden's death at the hands of U.S. special forces will bring a wave of reprisals. It has "left a wound. It has dealt a blow to our morale and has amplified the feeling of oppression," said Sheik bin Salem Shahhal, the son of the man recognized as the founder of the religiously ultraconservative Salafist movement in Lebanon. "But this has only made Islamic Salafist movements even more intent on seeking revenge."

Ismail Haniyeh, the prime minister of the Hamas government in the Gaza Strip, was quoted by Reuters as saying: "We condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior. We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood."

Al Qaeda's attacks have been visceral and cinematic, providing fleeting release for pent-up rage but doing little to heal the Arab world's larger problems of poverty, political repression and corruption. It wasn't a terrorist plot that brought down Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak; it was hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters from across society demanding better lives.

The concern for moderates in the region, however, is that the Arab Spring may be hijacked by extremist voices. Salafists in Egypt and other countries are finding political parties to advance their religious agendas. The conservative wing of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood supports Hamas, which considers Bin Laden a martyr. What is unfolding is an intense competition between pro-democracy secularists and fundamentalist Islamists to shape a new generation of political thought.

Bin Laden and Al Qaeda forced both moderate and extremist Muslims to examine harsh strands of Islam and their influences on government and society. This debate is far from over, but Washington and Europe, as well as religious moderates in Cairo and liberals in Tunis, are hoping for a renaissance that will make the region more tolerant, democratically inclined and open to the West.

Hatred of the West filtered through his fiery vision of the Koran was Bin Laden's cachet for years. After generations of colonialism and the failed dream of Arab nationalism, the Middle East had sought a hero against what it regarded as a soulless West that co-opted Arab leaders, denied Palestinians a homeland and siphoned away oil.

"Bin Laden was someone that we unintentionally supported over the years," said Abdel Rahman el Nemr, a 30-year-old communications engineer in Cairo. "It was a mental thing. Despite disagreeing with many of his extreme thoughts and his practicing and inciting violence against non-Muslims, millions of Muslims all over the world, including myself, sometimes regarded him as a symbol of fighting against American and Western tyranny."

But that, say many Arabs, was yesterday.

"All the rhetoric that Bin Laden and his allies were using against Arab governments no longer applies," said Riad Kahwaji, an analyst and director of the Institute for Near East and Gulf Military Analysis, a privately funded think tank based in Beirut and Dubai, United Arab Emirates. "That's why we see the Salafists talk about participation and the Muslim Brotherhood [in Egypt] modifying its agenda and meeting the seculars halfway."

Bin Laden's violence against innocents brought stereotypes and discrimination against Muslims that may take years to overcome. "He actually harmed Islam more than anyone else," said Amal Kamal Din, an Egyptian dentist. "He always spoke of Western injustice toward Islam while everything he did helped increase and justify this injustice against us."

Some Muslims were in disbelief of his death Monday, saying Bin Laden had once again slipped away, tricking the West. Others were confused. For so long he had loomed large, a graying warrior with a rifle and combat fatigues, winding along mountain paths, a conspiracy theorist's dream.

"His death doesn't really mean anything to me," said Hazem, the Cairo engineer. "I've always regarded him as a terrorist who was made a scarecrow by the U.S and the West to make the whole world fear Islam and pursue their certain interests in the Middle East."

Photos: Osama bin Laden's death

jeffrey.fleishman@latimes.com

Times staff writers Borzou Daragahi in Beirut and Ned Parker and Salar Jaff in Cairo, Amro Hassan of The Times' Cairo bureau, and special correspondents Roula Hajjar in Beirut and Alsanosi Ahmed in Khartoum, Sudan, contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times

[SteveAJones]

Respecting your enemy can be disarming and can sometimes buy time and keep you in whatever good graces he might have when you are in a pinch in enemy territory.

If you are a member of the armed forces there is a Code of Conduct to guide your actions. If you are a civilian or other non-combatant good manners may be your only option.

[SteveAJones]

Well, that's a little unfair, isn't it Steve? It wasn't even Liz that was questioning Osama's death; it was cate. And why does this have to be a Lib vs. Con thing; I think of myself as liberal and have no problem with the death of Osama.

Liz was questioning Osama's death by insisting on photographic evidence of his demise. It's unfortunate this turn of events will become highly politicized, but that is to be expected given opposing points of view. If the libs had succeeded in closing GITMO Osama would still be strolling the grounds of his multi-million dollar mansion this morning.

[Silver Rider]

Liz was questioning Osama's death by insisting on photographic evidence of his demise. It's unfortunate this turn of events will become highly politicized, but that is to be expected given opposing points of view. If the libs had succeeded in closing GITMO Osama would still be strolling the grounds of his multi-million dollar mansion this morning.

There is photographic evidence, but it is described as gruesome.

And I can see how the people who hid Osama could keep it a secret from the authorities. Maybe they had an unknown, low-profile local person secure the real estate deal to escape the detection of the authorities. They probably did not give Osama's name to anyone involved in the real estate deal. He was probably introduced as a visitor if he was introduced at all, and may have worn a disguise to prevent questions. He may have stayed inside except perhaps at night, to avoid being noticed. He would easily blend into a religious community where people kept to themselves.

As for Guantanamo, I hope they have started to get intelligence by rewarding people rather than engaging in behaviour that would shame George Washington.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bin Laden's neighbors noticed unusual things

Questions persist about how authorities could not have known who was living in the compound

msnbc.msn.com

Construction of the three-story house began about seven years ago. Aside from its size, the house doesn't stand out from the others in the neighborhood, where residents tend to be very religious and jealous of their privacy. The walls are mold-stained, there are trees in the garden and the windows are hidden.

Those who live nearby said the people in bin Laden's compound rarely strayed outside. Most were unaware that foreigners — bin Laden and his family are Arabs — were living there.

Khurshid Bibi, in her 70s, said one man living in the compound had given her a lift to the market in the rain. She said her grandchildren played with the kids in the house and that the adults there gave them rabbits as a gift.

But the occupants also attracted criticism.

"People were skeptical in this neighborhood about this place and these guys. They used to gossip, say they were smugglers or drug dealers. People would complain that even with such a big house they didn't invite the poor or distribute charity," said Mashood Khan, a 45-year-old farmer.

Some residents said they would most often see two men who would occasionally attend a neighborhood gathering, such as a funeral. Both men were tall, fair skinned and bearded and described themselves as cousins from elsewhere in northwestern Pakistan.

Questions persisted about how authorities could not have known who was living in the compound.

Police officer Nazir Ahmad said police visit hotels daily to obtain copies of passports of foreigners staying there. He says real estate agents have to inform police if they rent out property to a foreigner.

Abbottabad police chief Mohammad Naeem said the police follow the procedures very strictly but "human error cannot be avoided."

Edited May 4, 2011 by Silver Rider

[blackfire]

Ok, now your mission have finnished, i suppose that the troops in Irak are going to back home, but i dont believe it...

Army stiil in Irak because of what, i would like to know the reason.

USA wants the world, thats because always attack them, the entire world hates EEUU, but what can we do?? Our economy depends on them.

[MrZoSo]

There is photographic evidence, but it is described as gruesome.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

msnbc.msn.com

Yes well, having a few bullets in your face is not going to be pretty. It doesn't matter if we have photographic and video proof, these "deathers" will not believe it anyway. For "someone" to say the POTUS (who is just about as politically savvy as they come) would have the stupidity to fake the death of public enemy #1 with such a complex cover-up or hoax when the US is at an all time low in the eyes of the rest of the world clearly shows a basic lack of comprehension on a larger scale.

The damage that would be done by such an act would not be confined simply to the POTUS, it would reverberate across the globe, the United States of America would become an absolute joke, would command no respect anywhere, would not be perceived as having any military capability, and not seen as a threat to anyone. It isn't rocket science. To put it in layman's terms, anyone thinking this is a fake...

Shit for brains.

[TypeO]

Wow.

Candidate Obama vs. President Obama.

http://americansforfreedom.org/articles/2011/05/obamas-cia-director-leon-panetta-admits-they-used-water-boarding-gain-intel-track-k

Turns out that whole waterboarding thing ain't such a bad thing, after all.

At least, not when THEY'RE doing it.

lulz.

[TypeO]

Of course, for Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic leadership, it all depends on who's in charge.

Nancy Pelosi, press conference, September 7, 2006:

[E]ven if [Osama bin Laden] is caught tomorrow, it is five years too late. He has done more damage the longer he has been out there.

But, in fact, the damage that he has done … is done. And even to capture him now I don’t think makes us any safer.

Nancy Pelosi, May 3, 2011:

The death of Osama bin Laden marks the most significant development in our fight against al-Qaida.

I salute President Obama, his national security team, Director Panetta, our men and women in the intelligence community and military, and other nations who supported this effort for their leadership in achieving this major accomplishment.

[T]he death of Osama bin Laden is historic….

I wonder if she will file War Crimes charges against Panetta and Obama, an idea she was "open to" when it was Bush in question?

[SteveAJones]

I can see how the people who hid Osama could keep it a secret from the authorities. Maybe they had an unknown, low-profile local person secure the real estate deal to escape the detection of the authorities. They probably did not give Osama's name to anyone involved in the real estate deal. He was probably introduced as a visitor if he was introduced at all, and may have worn a disguise to prevent questions. He may have stayed inside except perhaps at night, to avoid being noticed. He would easily blend into a religious community where people kept to themselves.

Oh, good grief. A multi-million dollar fortified super-structure such as his doesn't get built in that location without some level of complicity. The Pakistani government has a lot to answer for!

[MrZoSo]

Oh, good grief. A multi-million dollar fortified super-structure such as his doesn't get built in that location without some level of complicity. The Pakistani government has a lot to answer for!

Not to mention it's virtually a stones throw from pakistani military base. This is obvious they were hiding him. Now, what the US does about it (not publicly most likely) is going to be interesting.

[JimmyPageZoSo56]

^ This is exactly what I was saying.

Edited May 4, 2011 by JimmyPageZoSo56