Stupid people

[BIGDAN]

Perhaps the concept that people should be treated as equals could work here. America once had a strong middle class. We're not that different. Taking a brief glance at those who were here before us, it seems Finland provided at least some previous foundation here.

loc.gov/rr/european/FinnsAmer/finchro

Are you for real or what? how much History and Evidence of treating people as UNEQUAL do you need?

Retards, Danny

[cryingbluerain]

America once had a strong middle class.

Unfortunately that's no longer the case. With corporations moving operations out of the U.S. at breathtaking speed, the middle class in America is dying. You can't raise a family on what you make flipping burgers at McDonald's or on what you bring in from greeting customers down at the local Wal-Mart.

[Silver Rider]

Unfortunately that's no longer the case. With corporations moving operations out of the U.S. at breathtaking speed, the middle class in America is dying. You can't raise a family on what you make flipping burgers at McDonald's or on what you bring in from greeting customers down at the local Wal-Mart.

Lowering educational standards does not help anyone, despite the latest trends in corporate activity.

[cryingbluerain]

Lowering educational standards does not help anyone, despite the latest trends in corporate activity.

Who's advocating that? If anything, it seems like our current educational system has led to the lowering of said standards.

Edited June 19, 2011 by cryingbluerain

[Silver Rider]

Are you for real or what? how much History and Evidence of treating people as UNEQUAL do you need?

The United States was founded on principles of equality.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, .............

source: United States Declaration of Independence

Take at look at who's at the top. Finland??? I mean, no disrespect, but what's so special about Finland?

In any case, the reason that Finland did well educationally in recent scores is in part due to its history of high literacy.

1747-1751

The Finnish scholar Pehr (Pietari) Kalm toured North America exploring areas of what are now the United States and Canada. He was one of the first Europeans on the continent to visit Niagara Falls. Kalm's findings were published in the work En resa til Norra America (Journey to North America) which was subsequently translated into several languages. The well known Swedish naturalist Linnaeus, Kalm's mentor, named a plant genus kalmia in honor of his distinguished student.

loc.gov/rr/european/FinnsAmer/finchro

Edited June 19, 2011 by Silver Rider

[BIGDAN]

The United States was founded on principles of equality.

"Founded On" is very different to "Upholding"

Could you tell me if nearly every signatory of the Declaration of Independence and whatever other document you hold dear Owned Slaves and Owned Stolen Lands from the Indians?

Regards, Danny

Edit for typo.

Edited June 19, 2011 by BIGDAN

[Silver Rider]

"Founded On" is very different to "Upholding"

Could you tell me if nearly every signatory of the Declaration of Independence and whatever other document you hold dear Owned Slaves and Owned Stolen Lands from the Indians?

Regards, Danny

Edit for typo.

What has that got to do with the topic? If the topic were slavery, that would be different. I am positive that I could develop an in-depth discussion on the history of slavery and the native American tribal populations. Slavery was a part of life in those days, and if you opposed it, people would retaliate against you for not adhering to societal dictates. It was a long struggle before slavery ended in the 1800's. And to answer your question, John Morton, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, owned slaves. I don't know why he acquired slaves or how he treated them, only that he owned them. It is possible that he provided sanctuary for them, preventing them from being owned by some of the more cruel slave-owners of the time. Pennsylvania was just across the Mason-Dixon line, and was a part of the underground used by slaves to escape misery. Ridley, Pennsylvania, where John Morton lived, was one of the first jurisdictions to end slavery.

But the topic here started with the question of why Finland did so well in the recent scores related to education. And the answer turns out to be that Finland has had a long history of high literacy and scholarship.

Cryingbluerain objected that egalitarian Finnish ideas might not work here in the United States. I simply pointed out that the United States was founded on egalitarian Finnish concepts, as evidenced by John Morton's signature on the Declaration of Independence.

adherents.com/people/pm/John_Morton

Morton was born of Finnish-Swedish descent in 1725, shortly after the death of his father, on a farm in Ridley Township, Chester (present Delaware) County... In 1774 he won appointment as an associate justice of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court... despite his rise in State circles, Morton had always maintained strong ties with his own county. He resided there all his life, remained active in civic and church affairs, and stayed close to the people...Within a year of signing the Declaration, in the spring of 1777, Morton fell ill and died on his farm at the age of 51. A few months earlier, he had bequeathed his land and property, including a few slaves, to his wife and five daughters and three surviving sons. But he could not will them security; shortly after his demise they had to flee from their home in the face of an imminent British attack. Morton's grave is located in the Old St. Paul's Cemetery n Chester, Pa.

Morton was born in Ridley Township, in Chester County, Pennsylvania, now part of Delaware County. His father, John Morton (Senior), was Finnish, who originated from Finland with his great-grandfather, Martti Marttinen (the family's original name, anglicized as Morton), himself a native of Rautalampi, Finland, who had arrived in the Swedish colony of New Sweden in 1654. His mother, Mary Archer, was also of Finnish descent. His father died before he was born, and when John was about seven years old, his mother married John Sketchley, a farmer of English ancestry, who educated Morton. About 1748, Morton married Ann Justis, who was herself a great-granddaughter of Finnish colonists to New Sweden. The couple would have nine children. Morton was an active member of the Anglican Church in Chester County.

wiki

springhillfarm.com/broomhall/afric6

Delaware County Slaves in 1780

From History of Delaware County, by Henry Hale Ashmead, 1884, pp. 203-205

[Thanks to Karen Mullian for transcribing this data!]

[On] March 1, 1780, the Assembly enacted a law providing for the gradual abolition of the entire system of servile labor in the commonwealth. Its provisions required a registration of all slaves to be made prior to the 1st day of November following in the office of the clerk of the court of Quarter Sessions in the several counties, and declared that all persons born after that date in Pennsylvania should be free, excepting the children of registered slaves, who should be servants to their parents masters until they had attained twenty-eight years, after which they also became free. Under this law, a registry of the slaves of Chester County, giving the name, age, sex, and time of service of each person held as a slave, as also the name of the owners and the township where they resided, was carefully made. The record shows the following slaves, the number owned by each master, as well as the residences of the latter in the territory now comprising Delaware County.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John Morton, of Ridley, farmer, records a negro man, George, 52; a negro woman, Dinah, 47; a negro girl, Hannah, 7; and a female negro child, 1 year old, all slaves for life.

John Morton showed his fervor for independence in a letter written by him to Thomas Powell, a merchant in London, dated June 8, 1775. In this letter he expressed not only his resolves for independence but his concerns for the coming war. These sentiments reflected the feelings of many people in the colonies. “We are really preparing for the worst that can happen viz, a civil war”. He goes on to say “I hope Time will manifest to the World that a steady Perseverance in the Cause of Freedom will triumph over all the deep lay’d Schemes of Tyranny, & that Britain & America will again be united on the solid Foundation of Commerce & the Constitution.” In what appears to be righteous anger John Morton writes, “You have declared the New England People Rebels, & the other Provinces Aiders & Abettors, this is putting the Halter about our Necks, & we may as well die by the Sword as be hang’d like Rebels, this has made the People desperate.” These same sentiments are reflected in the Declaration of Independence.

Some individuals have suggested that the concluding sentence “I sincerely wish a Reconciliation, the Contest is horrid, Parents against Children, & Children against Parents, the longer the wound is left in the present state the worse it will be to heal at last” indicates a lack of support for the road leading to independence. However, many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence harbored the same concerns and fears, as in fact civil war did break out in many of the colonies during the Revolutionary War.

John Morton, as Speaker of the Pennsylvania Assembly, on April 6, 1776, in further testimony to independence signed a resolution appointing Ludowick Sprogle as “muster master of the forces of this province for the protection there of against all hostile enterprises and for the defense of American Liberty.” This suggests a man who is leading cautiously, but inexorability towards afixing his signature on the Declaration of Independence.

In September 1777 after the Battle of Brandywine which the British won, Anne Morton, John Morton’s wife fled across the Delaware River with what valuables she could take to Billingsport, New Jersey. It was during this time that many of the papers that belonged to John Morton, as well as household possessions were destroyed. In November 18, 1782 Anne Morton filed an accounting of the losses she suffered in compliance with an act of the General Assembly. This is unfortunate because this documentary evidence could have broadened our understanding of John Morton’s private and public life.

John Morton with his wife, Ann, had nine children: Aaron, the eldest child, Sketchley, a major in the Pennsylvania line of the Continental Line, Rebecca, John, who became a surgeon and died while a prisoner of war on the British ship, Falmouth in New York Harbor, Sarah, Lydia, Elizabeth, Mary, and Ann, whose husband, Captain John Davis fought in the Revolutionary War as an officer in the Pennsylvania line.

On July 5, 2004 in recognition of John Morton’s role in signing the Declaration of Independence a plaque was placed at his gravesite by the Descendents of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence. He was the first of the fifty-six signers to receive this honor. Many of the descendents of John Morton including the Ward and Stromberg families were in attendance as well as Grace Staller, the Plaque Committee chairperson. John Morton’s vote for independence from England helped to assure America’s future as a free and independent country.

dsdi1776.com/Signers

The Underground Railroad wasn't a real railroad and it wasn't necessarily underground. It really was a system that helped slaves escape to freedom in areas such as the northern states and Canada in the 1800's. This system was called the Underground Railroad because of the secret way slaves escaped. It was in 14 northern states but was mainly in Indiana, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and the New England states. The slaves would hide during the day and moved almost always at night. To make sure no one found out about it, the people who aided the slaves and the fugitives would use many railroad words as code words. Although some slaves settled in the North, others didn't because they could be captured and would be returned to being a slave. Instead these slaves would go to Canada. The line between freedom and slavery was called the Mason Dixon Line. It is located on the border of Pennsylvania and Maryland.

library.thinkquest.org/J0112391/slavery

Edited June 19, 2011 by Silver Rider

[redrum]

Stupid People......Just watch 'COPS' (from any country)

[BIGDAN]

What has that got to do with the topic? If the topic were slavery, that would be different. I am positive that I could develop an in-depth discussion on the history of slavery and the native American tribal populations. Slavery was a part of life in those days, and if you opposed it, people would retaliate against you for not adhering to societal dictates. It was a long struggle before slavery ended in the 1800's. And to answer your question, John Morton, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, owned slaves. I don't know why he acquired slaves or how he treated them, only that he owned them. It is possible that he provided sanctuary for them, preventing them from being owned by some of the more cruel slave-owners of the time. Pennsylvania was just across the Mason-Dixon line, and was a part of the underground used by slaves to escape misery. Ridley, Pennsylvania, where John Morton lived, was one of the first jurisdictions to end slavery.

But the topic here started with the question of why Finland did so well in the recent scores related to education. And the answer turns out to be that Finland has had a long history of high literacy and scholarship.

Hi Silver Rider,

Firstly, I was replying to your comment here,

"Perhaps the concept that people should be treated as equals could work here." (in America)

My point was that America has no History of treating people as equals anywhere, I wasn't bringing Slavery up but you could use that and the way America treated the Natives, the Irish, the Italians, the Mexicans and any other race they encountered as a starting point of how America will never be able to fulfil your concept of matching Finland in regard to bettering their Education System and Results, no more so than England would better them.

My reasons.

1. They have a very unique culture, you have a multicultural diversity.

2. They use a Common Language, you use many.

3. They live in a relatively harmonious country, you live in a crime riddled society. (if that were true)

4. They spend 6.4% of GDP on Education, you spend 5.7% (not much difference but it might be a reason)

You know how topics have a way of taking there own direction, I wasn't trying to hijack this thread just trying to answer your "Perhaps" question.

Regards, Danny

PS, I also think the Declaration of Independence Document is flawed, but that's another topic isn't it?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp

Edited June 20, 2011 by BIGDAN

[Silver Rider]

Hi Silver Rider,

Firstly, I was replying to your comment here,

"Perhaps the concept that people should be treated as equals could work here." (in America)

My point was that America has no History of treating people as equals anywhere, I wasn't bringing Slavery up but you could use that and the way America treated the Natives, the Irish, the Italians, the Mexicans and any other race they encountered as a starting point of how America will never be able to fulfil your concept of matching Finland in regard to bettering their Education System and Results, no more so than England would better them.

My reasons.

1. They have a very unique culture, you have a multicultural diversity.

2. They use a Common Language, you use many.

3. They live in a relatively harmonious country, you live in a crime riddled society. (if that were true)

4. They spend 6.4% of GDP on Education, you spend 5.7% (not much difference but it might be a reason)

You know how topics have a way of taking there own direction, I wasn't trying to hijack this thread just trying to answer your "Perhaps" question.

Regards, Danny

PS, I also think the Declaration of Independence Document is flawed, but that's another topic isn't it?

http://www.nationmas...spending-of-gdp

America has a concept of law called "equal protection", that is part of the law that says you cannot discriminate on the basis of race. Where did you study U.S. history? It may be your opinion that America lacks a history of equality, but even the concept of "equal opportunity" forms an important basis for the civil rights which many Americans have fought for. You did mention slavery and native American lands as well.

I have lived in America for many years and it is my opinion that without our law that offers equal protection, many who have come here seeking opportunity would never have had the benefits which many of them have enjoyed. Why did they come to the U.S. instead of going elsewhere? Opportunity is the reason why. And the law here protects "equal opportunity".

And the same concepts of equal protection of the law and equal opportunity apply to education in America. Americans may have to fight to enforce those rights, but they are protected by law.

Further, the objections you raise such as different languages and multicultural elements have been heard in America before. Fortunately many of us have learned to accept the variety that our country has been blessed with. And what if people have a different language? Are you trying to convince me that people must sacrifice quality in education because a language is different?

If you will take another look, it is not because the Finns have only one language and culture that allowed them to advance in education. It was an emphasis on high standards, quality, high literacy and support of scholarly pursuits, making education widely available and overcoming learning disabilities while including everyone in the mainstream, not separating them from the high achievers.

As for the Declaration of Independence, if promotes the concept of equality and life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which for many, includes a quality education. Not a flaw, in my opinion.

"Founded On" is very different to "Upholding"

Could you tell me if nearly every signatory of the Declaration of Independence and whatever other document you hold dear Owned Slaves and Owned Stolen Lands from the Indians?

Regards, Danny

Edit for typo.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Silver Rider

[Silver Rider]

And did the Normans purchase the land later from the 'Britons" and so on and so forth.

In 1066 the Normans "purchased" (invaded) England.

source: wiki

[spidersandsnakes]

It confronts people with the undeniable reality that the power is with the people. That it comes from the bottom up and not the other way around.

It's true, but since the days of President Johnson, most govts IGNORED this IMPORTANT factor and many Americans didn't even notice and in most cases didn't even care or even ACCEPTED the "new" rules of INEQUALITY thinking that it was in the (obscure) interest of America to "lose" some of that JUST equality!!!!

Edited June 20, 2011 by spidersandsnakes

[Ady]

Finland??? I mean, no disrespect, but what's so special about Finland?

Finland has it all.

[Strider]

bouillon, on 18 June 2011 -07:03 AM, said:

Finland??? I mean, no disrespect, but what's so special about Finland?

JARI KURRI.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?mem=P200104#photo

[Bong-Man]

I think there is another problem with technology, and that is the belief by Administrators and teachers that schools must always be on the cutting edge. Keeping up on the latest computers and mass media equipment now seems more important than the actual learning process. If that's the case, then we need to overhaul the rules of the teaching game. There's no reason for a child to sit in a classroom for an entire day like you and I did....not if you're going to play on the same device for 5 hours a night. You don't need as many bank tellers because of atms.....and you don't need as many or the same type of teachers with computers around.

I can't begrudge someone with a Masters Degree making $70,000 a year and getting a Summer off. Which banker convinced you that teaching is not an honorable profession ?

[spidersandsnakes]

I think there is another problem with technology, and that is the belief by Administrators and teachers that schools must always be on the cutting edge. Keeping up on the latest computers and mass media equipment now seems more important than the actual learning process. If that's the case, then we need to overhaul the rules of the teaching game. There's no reason for a child to sit in a classroom for an entire day like you and I did....not if you're going to play on the same device for 5 hours a night. You don't need as many bank tellers because of atms.....and you don't need as many or the same type of teachers with computers around.

I can't begrudge someone with a Masters Degree making $70,000 a year and getting a Summer off. Which banker convinced you that teaching is not an honorable profession ?

I tend t think teachers and teaching as we know it will become obsolete one day...everything changes and progress and time waits for no-one, BUT machine and technology will have a hard time to make translators and interpreters obsolete!!. The Wall Street Institute method of teaching English to foreign students online is good, but it still costs too much:)!!!!

[BIGDAN]

OK Silver Rider you're first,

I know you of old don't I? So whatever I post to you, you will bypass and ignore, however much sense I make you will make light of it and move on with your own agenda, so it is now pointless to carry on right? Adieu Mon Ami.

Hi Brad, I know you also only too well don't I?

Lets say that when the Colonists in North America gained Independence from Great Britain they could draw a line under everything that went on before and they drew up the Declaration and Bill of Rights OK?

Now from that moment they were on their own, they could ever live by those pieces of paper or they could tear them up, I believe they tore them up. Why you may ask do I form that opinion? its because of the FACT that they moved out of those 13 States and Conquered, Pillaged, Murdered, Raped, Mutilated, Stole, Defrauded, Conned, and Tricked the Innocent Native Unsophisticated People of North America. So what was the point of all that paper work?

The Declaration Of Independence was just a "foundation" as you say, so where did they BUILD on it?

If you can call building on the Extermination of those people as justification for a New America and hold your head up high whilst singing that National Anthem then you are a better man than I, because I couldn't Justify it myself, no more than I can Justify what the British Empire did or stood for.

And just what has this to do with Finnish Education you may ask? America has become an EMPIRE that has far too many other issues to deal with whilst Finland is One Nation under One Flag with One Culture to deal with so it is far easier to Achieve Excellence in Education in Finland than in the USA, or Britain for that matter with our Multiculturalism and Diversity.

Kind Regards, Danny

PS, I think it is akin to how the Jews left the ways of the Torah, Christians ignore the Bible and Muslims read a different song sheet when obeying the Koran, be a Buddhist and Love Everything.

[Silver Rider]

Back on the topic of education, for anyone interested in learning U.S. history, there are courses available taught by those who are knowledgeable in the subject, although everyone is welcome to their opinions.

u-s-history.com

Edited June 20, 2011 by Silver Rider

[BIGDAN]

Italian Suppositories abound endlessly on this forum, a sign of self importance/impotence or what?

If you have something to say to someone then why not say it to them instead of wrapping it up in sarcasm and always having the last word, childish beyond belief. And you all know who I'm talking about don't ya?

Regards, Danny

PS, And if you want to learn History you don't have to go to school to do so, its much better to find out about it yourself, that way you get more enjoyment, more facts and you wont get indoctrinated like you do in the classrooms, take it from someone who knows, school can teach a lot of untruths to the unwary.

Edited June 20, 2011 by BIGDAN

[Silver Rider]

Not being sarcastic, just pointing out that I have learned more about United States history from knowledgeable teachers than other sources. I understand that people have their opinions.

[BIGDAN]

Not being sarcastic, just pointing out that I have learned more about United States history from knowledgeable teachers than other sources. I understand that people have their opinions.

OK I can accept that Silver Rider but how do you know without looking elsewhere for confirmation and reference that they tell you the TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH?

And please tell me if anything I have said about American History is not FACTUAL or TRUE, I hold my hands up that even with all my knowledge I still have oodles to learn about your Great Countries History, and I want to learn more, even from you and Brad who I know would have much to teach me about American History.

Why I haven't even got to the real bottom of English History, that's why I continue to read and watch documentaries all the time, my home is a Library of History Books so much so that I have had to withdraw from 3 Book Clubs, I kid you not. I had to, the Misses insisted.

Regards, Danny

PS, Silver Rider, please start up a topic about American History, it would be most enjoyable and very interesting I'm sure.

[Silver Rider]

OK I can accept that Silver Rider but how do you know without looking elsewhere for confirmation and reference that they tell you the TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH?

I do look elsewhere for corroborating facts. They're not under oath and they don't need to swear to the whole truth; that would be ludicrous. But some do scholarly research and have earned advanced degrees in history, so their knowledge of facts and dates related to events can be extensive. Sorry, but my keyboard is stuck at the moment and I can't comply with your requests at this time, and I don't wish to start any new threads.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Silver Rider

[spidersandsnakes]

Christians ignore the Bible

YOU don't say?????????????????, hehehehehhehehehehehhehe :)....they've been ignoring it ever since the dawn of Christianity!!!:)

[BIGDAN]

Even from the beginnig the DOI became one of the arguemnts used by abolishinists to confront the inequity of slavery. Even if it took time for the nation's collective consciesness to arrive at a point where the concepts were agreed to mean "all men", that does not diminish my point that it was part of a foundation to build on. It in fact was.

And while everything you said about native peoples happened, I disagree that it was always with evil intent. Most settlers were just looking to impove their lives as well. Many whites did not understand the impact on hunter gatherers when they began to set aside huge tracts of land for farming... and then conflict was bound to occur. But the fact that Indian tribes had caused forced relocations of other tribes before the white man ever arrived as well, just indicates to me that it was probably part human nature, and bound to be a fact of history.

In my view we all stand upon the shoulders of those who came before us. Without the Greeks, Romans, British and my American forefathers I might still be a hunter gatherer without the technology to even have this conversation. So having either pride or shame about the facts of history is not what I am about. Whatever happened happened, but I feel that there was a destiny to it all. I suppose it could have gone another way, and then the Aztecs might have sailed to Europe and sacrificed millions of Europeans on their alters, but they weren't the ones who aquired gunpowder first. I just believe that if they had, it would have probably happened that way and then we would be having a conversation about who would feel guilty then.

Here we agree.

Cheers

Hi Brad,

At last someone who has the courage to say what they think and had conviction to say it how it happened, I applaud you.

I also believe that you, the American people that is, had no choice to do what you did, the same goes for Great Britain and its Empire, Napoleon, Rome, Greece and all the others. We now try to judge these times with our own set of morals but they didn't exist in their times and so we are unfounded in our judgement of those peoples and times.

I just wanted an American to admit that not all what your ancestors did had the good will to the Natives at heart, its good to find someone who isn't petrified to say "My Country made mistakes" here's to you again.

CASE CLOSED.

Kind Regards, Danny

PS, I only hope they realise those mistakes and don't make the same ones again.

[Silver Rider]

My sons are 12 and 14. When I started to read their teachers' comments on their homework many years ago, I was shocked to see that whereas they were criticised for poor handwriting, no attempt whatsoever was made to correct their spelling, and rarely their grammar. When I queried this at

I have consistently received compliments on my handwriting throughout the years. Apparently my teachers did a good job giving me instruction and practice in that area. But I do well at drawing, too.

Maybe they could offer a course in calligraphy to allow the students more practice in developing their handwritten communications.

As for spelling, we frequently had spelling bees.

In regards to grammar, we took turns reading aloud to our class members, so everyone was exposed to the same readings. If the teachers heard any improper grammar, they would explain the difference and the reason for it; for instance, the use of the word ain't. Ain't is an expression that does not utilize proper grammar, but it is commonly used and it's meaning is usually understood. Our teachers loved grammar and carefully explained the structure of sentences. Our assignments included book reviews, essays, poetry and creative writing, and they would patiently note any errors in grammar.