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In Through The Out Door


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Sorry I didn't know I said it was the worst selling, oh wait I didn't. When this came out all of the other albums went onto the chart because everyone wanted to buy that instead.

Are you implying everyone wanted to buy the other albums instead of ITTOD & thats why they re-charted? If so here's a newsflash Sherlock, the same thing happend when PG was released as all their earlier albums re-entered the charts. I guess by your logic both albums suck & what came before was better & that's why people went & bought the earlier albums at those times. The reality is both albums went to the top of the charts immediately upon release & had a renewing interest in the band as a whole amongst fans. You just love to mislead with your conjecture to try & somehow justify your weak arguments.

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Sounds pretty suspect to me. Did they even listen to Ozone Baby again before they signed off on the deal?

I don't see how you are making a good case for subpar material getting out and hurting their image.

It hurts their image in your eyes, not mine. And subpar to what? It is interesting what you choose to quote & not quote from me though. No acknowledgement from you that LZ must be perfect in your eyes or that according to you Presence is an "extra" album. I'd love for you to explain why they must be perfect in your eyes & why Presence is an "extra" album to you. Let the delusions begin...

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Are you implying everyone wanted to buy the other albums instead of ITTOD & thats why they re-charted? If so here's a newsflash Sherlock, the same thing happend when PG was released as all their earlier albums re-entered the charts. I guess by your logic both albums suck & what came before was better & that's why people went & bought the earlier albums at those times. The reality is both albums went to the top of the charts immediately upon release & had a renewing interest in the band as a whole amongst fans. You just love to mislead with your conjecture to try & somehow justify your weak arguments.

The only thing weak is ITTOD and it is a bad album and has about 2 mediocre songs

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The only thing weak is ITTOD and it is a bad album and has about 2 mediocre songs

You have a way of avoiding the answering direct questions & doesn't take a genuis to figure out why, you don't acknowledge that you give misleading information to further your agenda, & you present your opinion as being factual. Look, I have no doubt you are passionate about the band but if you're going to be part of a serious conversation about the band then you should wait until you have mastered training wheels before you ride the big boy bike known as Led Zeppelin. There is a newbie section in the forum where the recently initiated speak about their Led Zeppelin fantasies all the time, I think you would fit in just fine over there.

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You have a way of avoiding the answering direct questions & doesn't take a genuis to figure out why, you don't acknowledge that you give misleading information to further your agenda, & you present your opinion as being factual. Look, I have no doubt you are passionate about the band but if you're going to be part of a serious conversation about the band then you should wait until you have mastered training wheels before you ride the big boy bike known as Led Zeppelin. There is a newbie section in the forum where the recently initiated speak about their Led Zeppelin fantasies all the time, I think you would fit in just fine over there.

Recently initiated? I don't think so. I did not know we were going to hit the personal angle either. Raged?

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I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you may be a newbie for your not answering direct questions asked of you, for giving misleading information over & over again to fuel your agenda, & for presenting your opinions & fantasies as being factual. My apologies to the newbies on the board, I shouldn't have lumped them in with you becuase I know they don't know any better when they're grasping at straws & have to resort to repeating themselves, lying, & dodging questions as their only recourse. So then, what's your excuse?

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I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you may be a newbie for your not answering direct questions asked of you, for giving misleading information over & over again to fuel your agenda, & for presenting your opinions & fantasies as being factual. My apologies to the newbies on the board, I shouldn't have lumped them in with you becuase I know they don't know any better when they're grasping at straws & have to resort to repeating themselves, lying, & dodging questions as their only recourse. So then, what's your excuse?

I haven't been misleading at all I've just given my personal reasons for ITTOD not being as good as previous albums don't see how thats newbie maybe your just slightly deluded on being so bent on telling everyone how good ITTOD is

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I haven't been misleading at all I've just given my personal reasons for ITTOD not being as good as previous albums don't see how thats newbie maybe your just slightly deluded on being so bent on telling everyone how good ITTOD is

But you stated your personal reasons as being Fact.

That was my only issue.

It doesn't matter to me if you love or hate In Through The Out Door.

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Chase, that would be called being "misleading" on the planet Earth. Our friend from another dimension obviously has other ideas as to what "opinions" are, just as he was misleading by implying that the reason that all the previous LZ albums re-charted when ITTOD came out was because those people preferred the other albums over what was then released, which according to his logic must have held true for PG on it's initial release & the re-charting of the previous albums as well. It apparently had nothing to do with there being a renewed interest in the band due to a new release, nope, those new albums must have just sucked to the public at large yet decided to buy their back catalogue for enjoyment & the new releases to use as a paperweight. Not misleading AT ALL lol.

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ITTOD is as good as any other Zeppelin album, if that fits your taste. I don't have a favorite Zeppelin album because they all have great tunes that inspire me. One week I may be hooked on Zep 3. This month it's ITTOD. Next may be HOTH. That's the biggest asset to being a Zeppelin fan. You will never get tired of their music. Carouselambra may hook someone just as deep as Stairway. In My time of Dying may grab you more than Whole Lotta Love. It all depends on the day, the mood, the atmoshere. Thats' why they are such an historical band-because their music (regardless of what album) is timeless.

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ITTOD, no matter how you feel about it, is an album born out of complicated circumstances. And it didn't help matters that it was the band's last album which created a profound sense of loss and unfulfilled promises.

I personally am not a fan of the album but I could never hold it against them or anyone else who feels differently. It is what it is and we will never really know what could have been.

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And quite frankly I don't think ITTOD needs any convincing on my part as to whether anyone likes, hates, or is indifferent to it. It's my ears that I'm concerned about, everyone else can figure it out for themselves. I don't care about LZ's legacy pro or con, I don't care how they're perceived pro or con, I don't care if we ever see them again walking this Earth... all I care about in regards to them is that I have there music available at my disposal when I want to listen to it. And I do so I'm content. It's that simple.

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For a man who doesn't care much you sure do seem content on proving me wrong about called ITTOD a load of tush

I never tried to prove you wrong for calling ITTOD a pile of tush. That's your opinion & I wouldn't dare try to take it away from you because in fact I couldn't take your opinion away from you. For presenting your opinion, that being ITTOD is a pile of tush, as fact... well I don't have to prove you wrong, your presentation of it as fact proves yourself wrong so I don't have to "prove" anything as it's there for all to see... I will point it out though, & did & will do so again if I'm moved to.

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Do you feel as if it is your role to tell other people how to post or what to say in their posts? If you need to apologize for that, I will accept it.

My "role" as it were, is to participate in discussions and proffer opinions and try and add to discussions and what I know I know well but unlike some I am willing to learn more.

I know it's hard for you to grasp the notion and it's difficult to rationalise the difference between those who were around when the albums were originally released and those that got into the music decades after.

Ask anyone here if they were anticipating the release of anything by Zeppelin and they would probably say they could'nt wait to buy it, sometimes before they even heard it, given they hardly got any airplay on radio in the mid to late '70's.

Hindsight can be a flawed perspective and second guessing is not always relevant either.

As far as telling people what to post, there are enough on here that do it better than me.

Apologise, to you?

Dream on.

They had been using drugs all along, that is not a very complete analysis of what happened with ITTOD. Why is it so hard to accept that the creative well was already dry by the time they made ITTOD?

Even on their worst day performance or recording wise, they are almost without peer.

The well was not dry but it certainly was low and the drugs contributed more to it than some will care to admit.

Anyone who thinks that mind altering substances actually contributes to creativity are kidding themselves.

Are you also grateful for Coda? In my opinion Coda should have never been released as an album. They should have just released singles of the good tracks and left the other really bad stuff in the vault.

Yes I am otherwise I wouldn't have been exposed to songs such as Poor Tom, Wearing and Tearing and Darlene etc.

As for releasing singles, you should know that historically Zeppelin were an albums band, period

Since when is "output" more important than quality?

It's not, but there is quality in all their music as far as I'm concerned and people's musical tastes are different and varied and so they should be.

I don't go around telling others what they should or shouldn't like and I expect the same.

If it moves you, great, if not don't listen to it.

It's amusing when people don't like something and then complain (seemingly) about being forced to listen to it.

That is just speculation on your part. As much as I admire Bonham, I don't think that he alone drove Jimmy's creative talent.

I have read interviews where Page has said that he played off Bonham more often than not and vise versa with Bonzo both in live and recording situations.

Page was the producer, JPJ was the primary arranger of the band whereas Page and Plant were the most credited songwriters.

Bonham contributed more than just drums that is, he created feels and grooves and some of the best inroductions to any modertn music.

WTLB, RnR (even though it was "borrowed" from a Little Richard Song), D'yer Maker, Poor Tom to name a few so he was just as critical in driving Page as much or moreso than the others.

Collectively they were an awesome combination where, in the words of Page became the fifth element.

In regards to releasing music contractually, live albums or best ofs are not always the preferred option with record companies.

New and original material is, so it stands to reason that without Bonham the prospect of that "heavier back to roots album" was never going to eventuate and given that Coda was released after his passing for better or worse it became part of the Led Zeppelin catalogue and for that I will be eternally grateful.

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Hey, I just thought that since you are the one who was dismissive of me, even calling me "sonny"; that I would give you a chance to apologize for that. But no problem, I have no malice against you so let me be the one to apologize to you then. I obviously must have upset you in some fashion; however, that was not my intent. So please, I apologize for whatever I may have possibly done or said to you sir that was unacceptable to you.

It's all good, time to move on.

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You know, for someone who thinks ITTOD is a "pile of tush", he sure has posted an awful lot in a thread devoted to it. Maybe he secretly loves it and doesn't want anyone to know.

But isn't that always the way :heartbreaker:

Let's leave the li'l shaver alone now, it's been a rough thread on him.

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And they have, it's overall not a good album, and I believe that if they could go back in time and spend more time on the album, it probably would only have one or two of the existing songs, and all the rest would have been replaced. Just the fact that the members of the band have already indicated their own misgivings about the final result, makes this a valid therory in my view.

I also don't see how being a so called "newbie" has anything to do with the validity of an opinion. My opinion on ITTOD existed long before this forum discussion or even this forum and the internet in general.

1) And they have? Yes they have. Some people love it, some people like it, some people hate it, & some people dislike it, the whole myriad of OPINIONS about the album are right here on this thread. What's your point? Do you have one? 2) It's overall not a good album? That's your OPINION. Overall I don't think LZ2 & Presence are good albums. That's my OPINION & at least I gave specific reasons why that's my OPINION rather than giving vague generalizations & speaking as though they are in fact overall not good albums. Compared to others, I don't care for them as much. Simple. 3) Page's favorite LZ album is Presence. It sure as hell ain't mine, but since it's Page"s favorite album does it make it yours? By your logic it would have to be. And I don't think JPJ has any misgivings about ITTOD, last time I checked he was a member of LZ. 4) I didn't call anyone a "newbie" much less you, I merely directed those who can't hold a serious conversation by being misleading, not answering direct questions, presenting their opinions & fantasies ("what if" scenarios) as fact, to perhaps check it out over there because most of the fans over there seem a bit confused for various reasons. 5) Your OPINION is fine, when you state that it's "overall not a good album" without adding that it is your OPINION then you imply it is a FACT, intentionally or not, & when you say "if they could go back in time" that's pure fantasy which quite frankly speaking for myself I have no use for as I don't take fantasy seriously, & finally adding that if the time travel were possible that ITTOD would "only have one or two of the existing songs" that's presumptive & pure conjecture on your part, again fantasy with no real basis. I hope you never have to defend yourself in an actual court of a law in front of an unbiased jury because you would be Sing Sing bound.

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If I say that ITTOD , "is overall not a good album" I am stating something that is subjective. It therefore is not necessary for me to add that it is my opinion, because in fact all subjective views are opinions. You keep insisting that others qualify every comment as "their opinion" when the entire thread is discussions about opinions.

As to my theory about how ITTOD would be different given more time and involvement in the studio, I based it on comments by Page and Plant regarding their views of the album themselves. Those are facts that would lead me to assume that if they had more time they would have changed some things. I'm sure that would also be true of many earlier albums as well, but we are talking about ITTOD.

You tend to want to roll over other people that offer other views. I have no problem if you want to say that LZ2 is not a good album, but in light of all of their studio releases and many, many articles on the subject by fans and critics alike; I just happen to believe that your view lacks any realistic merit. If it helps you to accept that statement, then I will add "in my opinon."

1) This thread I'm sure was intended by Rock Historian to be about opinions but no this entire thread is no longer about opinions based on you & 2 others.... it's about opinions stated or implied as facts, which you & 2 others have turned into fantasy & conjecture, not opinions & facts. There are only 3 people who have continously responded to this thread who for some reason like to blur the line between fact & opinion, you being one. 2) I have no problem with anyone's views, I could not have been more clear about that throughout. I have a problem when people state opinion as fact, mislead by giving half a story, mix reality with fantasy ( as your calling Presence an album of "extras" as you still haven't addressed that bit of fantasy you spouted off), etc. So if your "views" can been put across without you doing any of what I just mentioned, I have zero problem with that, unfortunately you have not been able to do that. There have been several people here who have said they don't like the album which I'm completely fine with because they're simply stating their opinions WITHOUT making it out to be fact. Look through all the comments, it's there for all to see. 3) Well I don't think LZ2 is either a bad or good album, it's just not MY favorite in their catalogue though others love it & we'd disagree & that's fine. It's fine that in your opinion (thank you) that you don't believe my opinion lacks any realistic merit because I like what I like based on what appeals to me, not what articles say by fans or critics because all they're doing is expressing their opinions as well. 4) JPJ was also a member of LZ. Again, has he said he would ever change a thing on the album for the reasons you gave earlier? And quite frankly LZ2 & Presence would have been "different"if given more time in the studio, even the first album as all of them were recorded in 3 weeks or less in studio time. So again, what's your point? It's obvious it & the others would be "different". Again with the vagueness....

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1) This thread I'm sure was intended by Rock Historian to be about opinions but no this entire thread is no longer about opinions based on you & 2 others.... it's about opinions stated or implied as facts, which you & 2 others have turned into fantasy & conjecture, not opinions & facts. There are only 3 people who have continously responded to this thread who for some reason like to blur the line between fact & opinion, you being one. 2) I have no problem with anyone's views, I could not have been more clear about that throughout. I have a problem when people state opinion as fact, mislead by giving half a story, mix reality with fantasy ( as your calling Presence an album of "extras" as you still haven't addressed that bit of fantasy you spouted off), etc. So if your "views" can been put across without you doing any of what I just mentioned, I have zero problem with that, unfortunately you have not been able to do that. There have been several people here who have said they don't like the album which I'm completely fine with because they're simply stating their opinions WITHOUT making it out to be fact. Look through all the comments, it's there for all to see. 3) Well I don't think LZ2 is either a bad or good album, it's just not MY favorite in their catalogue though others love it & we'd disagree & that's fine. It's fine that in your opinion (thank you) that you don't believe my opinion lacks any realistic merit because I like what I like based on what appeals to me, not what articles say by fans or critics because all they're doing is expressing their opinions as well. 4) JPJ was also a member of LZ. Again, has he said he would ever change a thing on the album for the reasons you gave earlier? And quite frankly LZ2 & Presence would have been "different"if given more time in the studio, even the first album as all of them were recorded in 3 weeks or less in studio time. So again, what's your point? It's obvious it & the others would be "different". Again with the vagueness....

Kaiser, unfortunately most threads result in these kind of arguments. There will always be someone or more than one who will yank your chain until it breaks. I have had that experince too- that has been laid to rest. You've probably been a member here as long-or longer than myself, so you know what to expect. I'm totally with you when it comes to defending the music you believe in. I'm the same way, but as long as noboby is downright disrespecting the things you defend, just leave it be. I should have taken my own advice recently, but I learn the hard way sometimes. I think the main problem here is not the opinions but the remarks and sarcastic comments that come with them, without asking a question first. Everyone thinks their own opinion is the one that matters most, so you can't change what people think, say or do. It's all in the upbringing. If the respect for one another ran a little deeper, it would be that much better of a place to visit. As for me, Im real big on respect and common courtesy-but only if I'm appraoched or questioned on a subject in the right manner.So just let it be brother-it will be an ongoing thing until it gets to the point of either being banned, deleted or just plain out pissed - over whether someone thinks Zeppelin is what you and I think (and know) they are......

Suggestion-

I'd like to hear someone's take (song by song) if you have the time-what you like or don't like about it. That may make it more interesting and explain more in detail your love/hate like or dislike with it as a whole piece. Maybe that would that be a more rational way of continuing the thread. Anyone?

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^ Led Tiki, I don't understand why you're even bothering to argue with kaiser. It's like trying to convince a religious nut-job that god doesn't exist. Evidence, consensus and just plain common sense are futile in situations like these.

I don't understand why you're piping in about me because weren't you sent off packing already? And I agree, evidence, consensus, & plain common sense are futile in situations like these, as you cannot accept that opinion is not fact, you have zero grasp of the meanings of words, & you bring nothing to the table at this moment other than to trying to be inflammatory about my character.

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How about this? If you don't like ITTOD, don't listen to it. If you do like it, listen to it. Don't try and convince the other group that they what they feel about the album is wrong. Accept that LZ made different kinds of music for different kinds of people, and be happy that they weren't a one-note group that did the same album eight times in a row.

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