Zimmerman Charged with Murder in the 2nd Degree. Justice!

[Nutrocker]

I saw a news clip while channel surfing. For a moment I wondered why the Michelin Man was on trial before I realized it was actually Treyvon's girlfriend. <snip>

actually I reckon this is a more accurate representation:

Seriously though, if these are the kinds of witnesses we can look forward to for the duration, this "trial" is going to be a Gong Show the likes of which Chuck Barris couldn't even imagine. I do believe I'll be following Steve's lead and not even following the thing beyond whatever salient highpoints (for wont of abetter term) they touch upon on the evening news, 'cos it looks like this thing is turning out to be a fuckin' joke.

[Anjin-san]

[Walter]

Really Kev? The kid didn't even see 18 years old, let him rest in peace.

This thing is so over. If it wasn't this high profile, Zimmerman would be acquitted of 2nd degree murder once the state rests, IMO.

[JP78]

i thought the michelin man referred to Zimmerman .

[Stryder1978]

LMAO....between the lying, uneducated "key" witness who implied that Trayvon was a racist to the neighbor today who basically said Taryvon was on top on Zimmerman doing an "MMA ground and pound", the prosecution is winning this case for the defense! The defense attorney won't even need to call any wintesses!

[Disco Duck]

SAJ, she was certainly a certifiable MESS! Btw, I thought you weren't paying attention...

I feel very sorry for this young woman. She's 19 years old and has been thrust into the public eye. As a result she has the whole damn country criticizing her testimony, her speech patterns and even her physical appearance. That would be a lot for even a mature and sophisticated adult to handle. I also think it's a bad idea to allow television cameras in trials. It's too intrusive.

[Sagittarius Rising]

I do not care one bit regarding what happened between George & Trayvon, that is 100% irrelevant and should also be in the eyes of the law. The only thing, according to the law, that should matter it intent. What was George Zimmerman's intent? Well, that is not even arguable since he willingly pursued a man while armed. This establishes his clear intent and that is the only thing the prosecution should be arguing. Case in point, if I go to a party armed because I believe there will be gang members present and fear for my safety, should I get into an altercation and I shoot and kill an unarmed person, I am guilty of manslaughter.

Why they are going for a 2nd degree murder charge is beyond me as this does not meet the legal requirement unless the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt George Zimmerman's clear intent was to purposely kill Trayvon Martin. I do not believe for one moment Mr. Zimmerman intended to go out and shoot Trayvon Martin, I 100% believe he placed himself willfully in a position to where an altercation might take place, and since he shot Trayvon with a gun he brought with him while in pursuit of an individual for no other reason than he was walking through his neighborhood, that meets the legal standard for both willful disregard and intent, thus manslaughter.

This is why the prosecution will lose, they filed the wrong damn charge!

[JP78]

btw, she was not Trayvon Martin's Girlfriend. she was just friends with him and he had a girlfriend . but i think she probably had a crush on him.

because she was wrongly being identified as the girlfriend i think she knew people were going to expect someone who looked different than she did. and of course that people would judge her for it.

another thing is that she is 19 and in high school so she seemed to feel some embarrassment over these things.

[backinthezeppelin]

Wow, this is so wrong. The kid was a criminal!

[Nutrocker]

i thought the michelin man referred to Zimmerman .

Meh, six of one, half a dozen of the other...although in Zimmy's case I'd reckon it was half a dozen Dunkin' Donuts or Quarter Pounders or something like that...

Love it!

Thanks, I'll be here all week...try the veal!

[Disco Duck]

Last time I checked American citizens still retained the legal right to bear arms and the right to defend themselves.

If Zimmerman had followed the 911 dispatcher's advice not to follow Trayvon Martin, none of this would have happened.

[TypeO]

If Zimmerman had followed the 911 dispatcher's advice not to follow Trayvon Martin, none of this would have happened.

But he did.

Trayvon confronted him when he was headed back to his truck.

[pottedplant]

I do not care one bit regarding what happened between George & Trayvon, that is 100% irrelevant and should also be in the eyes of the law. The only thing, according to the law, that should matter it intent. What was George Zimmerman's intent? Well, that is not even arguable since he willingly pursued a man while armed. This establishes his clear intent and that is the only thing the prosecution should be arguing. Case in point, if I go to a party armed because I believe there will be gang members present and fear for my safety, should I get into an altercation and I shoot and kill an unarmed person, I am guilty of manslaughter.

Why they are going for a 2nd degree murder charge is beyond me as this does not meet the legal requirement unless the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt George Zimmerman's clear intent was to purposely kill Trayvon Martin. I do not believe for one moment Mr. Zimmerman intended to go out and shoot Trayvon Martin, I 100% believe he placed himself willfully in a position to where an altercation might take place, and since he shot Trayvon with a gun he brought with him while in pursuit of an individual for no other reason than he was walking through his neighborhood, that meets the legal standard for both willful disregard and intent, thus manslaughter.

This is why the prosecution will lose, they filed the wrong damn charge!

A couple of things, Sag, with all due respect. 2nd degree murder and manslaughter are the same in many jurisdictions. As to the "mens rea" or intent of Zimmerman - that is up to the jury to decide based on all the facts/evidence presented - not just the arguments of one side or the other. The standard for conviction on 2nd degree murder or manslaughter is lower than that for 1st degree (beyond a reasonable doubt). If I remember correctly, it took the prosecution a while before they brought formal charges against Zimmerman. Prosecutors bring charges based on the facts as they know

them at the time and what they believe they can prove. They will go for what is called "a lesser included"

if they believe it will get them a conviction.

[Sagittarius Rising]

Last time I checked American citizens still retained the legal right to bear arms and the right to defend themselves.

Irrelevant to the situation. Of course he has the right to bear arms, however NO ONE has the right to arm themselves and pursue vigilante justice.

[Sagittarius Rising]

But he did.

Trayvon confronted him when he was headed back to his truck.

First, no one knows when the confrontation happened, that is simply the testimony of the accused, that is it is biased. These are unknowns, though one can infer from prior acts what happened. Mr. Zimmerman had a history of violent confrontations with both civilians and the police, Trayvon Martin did not. Trayvon had only been busted for minor weed possession and possible distribution, no violent history.

IMO what happened was obvious yet completely unprovable, George Zimmerman stalked Trayvon Martin with the intent to intimidate, to get him to leave and never come back (not to kill). Martin became aware that an unknown person was stalking him, thus when Zimmerman approached him (I believe he did) Martin without a word, spun around proceeded to beat the holy shit out of Zimmerman in an effort to defend himself from someone who was stalking him and approaching him at a late hour.

I tell you this, and anyone who says differently is probably lying...If I were in a similar situation, that is if I were i Martin's shoes, I would have done the exact same thing. Someone comes up on me at midnight after I notice him stalking me, yep, I am gonna beat the shit out of them before they have the chance to rob me or whatever. I take this from personal experience as the same thing happened to me in my late 20's after leaving work from a late shift. Turned out the guy I "took care of" was indeed a criminal who was robbing folk in the area.

[Sagittarius Rising]

No, of course not but the analogy you gave was not that but this: If I go to a party armed because I believe there will be gang members present and fear for my safety, should I get into an altercation and I shoot and kill an unarmed person, I am guilty of manslaughter.

Either situation would result in charges and jail.

[Sagittarius Rising]

If advice was followed in this world there'd be no marriages either.

Not a justifiable defense. Though it would be interesting to see the judge laugh their ass off at such a statement. "Uh, you see your honor, my mother told me not to kill my stepfather but I just could not help it. I know her advice was sound but hey, not everyone follows advice you know."

[Sagittarius Rising]

That was good Steve

[Anjin-san]

At the end of Zimmerman's 911 call he says clearly that he's lost the tail on Treyvon and is headed back towards his truck. That's when he became prey.

[Walter]

Just to get the proper time frame, this took place just after 7 pm and not after midnight as was said earlier.

[pottedplant]

Hilarious, SAJ. And right on point to what I was trying to explain.

[pottedplant]

Hilarious, SAJ. And right on point to what I was trying to explain. It will be very interesting to see how all this turns out. If Zimmerman is acquitted, no amount of not meeting the burden of proof by the prosecution will not matter to the family of Martin, mens rea, notwithstanding.

[Texas Melanie]

I would think that Mens Rea would be at the heart of the case since Zimmerman killing Martin is not in dispute.

And wow! Zimmerman must be one hell of a stress eater...just an observation.

[Sagittarius Rising]

At the end of Zimmerman's 911 call he says clearly that he's lost the tail on Treyvon and is headed back towards his truck. That's when he became prey.

Did you ever think of the possibility he said he lost sight of him and was heading back to his vehicle, while in truth he was still tailing him, simply because the 911 operator told him to stop pursuit? Not saying that is what happened, just saying there is no way to prove what Zimmerman was doing period. No eyewitness testimony, simply Zimmerman's story.

Again, if someone is following you at 7pm in the dark, what would you do? Trayvon Martin was justified in his action, George Zimmerman was not, based on the available evidence.

[pottedplant]

Intent in a criminal act is a element of criminal responsibility, a guilty mind; a guilty or wrongful purpose; a criminal intent. Guilty knowledge and willfulness on the part of Zimmerman.

You are right on Sag.

Keeping in mind not to confuse the act with the intent. The defense is using self-defense in this case, if they're not, they're crazy. Did Zimmerman intend to kill Martin? We don't know that. Like you said Sag, we just don't know. That is why the element of intent in the charge of 2nd degree murder has to be met by the prosecution; intent cannot be assumed in law, it has to be proven.

Forgive me for using the term "mens rea" and sounding like a know-it-all. That is not my intent. It is just second nature to me because I have worked in the legal world my whole working life. Just gut reaction on my part. I am not on either side in this, I just want a fair and judicious outcome.