Jahfin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 For those that think they should be able to steal music from artists by downloading it illegally and that they shouldn't be compensated for their work this is a great article on the subject written by David Lowery (Camper Van Beethoven, Cracker) in response to an article written by Emily White, an intern for NPR's All Things Considered. I understand the response Lowery posted is long and intricately detailed but please take the time to actually read it before replying to this thread. By the way, Lowery has been teaching a class in the economics of the music industry at the University of Georgia for the past two years. In other words, he is very informed on the subject and articulates his perspective very well. First, Emily White's article from NPR: I Never Owned Any Music To Begin With David Lowery's reply: Letter To Emily White at NPR All Things Considered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProPlant Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Thanks for sharing these two articles. I think many people feel similarly to Emily White in that they know what they're doing is wrong but they've basically listened for so many years to people saying, "You're just paying the million dollar record companies," that they don't realize the impact file sharing can actually have on the artists. People assume everyone out there making music is part of that top 1% of the top 1% of artists and it simply isn't true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstork Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Thanks Jahfin, enlightening read. Really got a kick out of this passage from Lowery: "Congratulations, your generation is the first generation in history to rebel by unsticking it to the man and instead sticking it to the weirdo freak musicians! I am genuinely stunned by this. Since you appear to love first generation Indie Rock, and as a founding member of a first generation Indie Rock band I am now legally obligated to issue this order: kids, lawn, vacate. You are doing it wrong." I like Cracker, haven't heard them in ages. It's nice to see that David is so passionate about this. All I know is I paid more for music back when I was a kid and made no money to speak of. Money has never been an impediment to most music fans (not including live shows, which have gotten exponentially more expensive since I was a kid)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deborah J Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 ^^Jahfin, that was a very enlightening. Call me whatever, but I save money to buy the music I want and have time to listen to. I own albums, CD's, DVD's. Hell, I have more fun in a record store than most other shopping..can spend hours in a good one. I do own a few bootlegs of concerts that were kindly sent to me by friends (all Led Zeppelin or the individual members), but I also own everything official I have been able to put my hands on, and will continue to buy the album, CD, DVD whatever they put out official. I do not own any devise for music other than a couple of good sound systems. This article has motivated me to write to my local elected officials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) More folks weigh in, all with counter arguments to David Lowery's reply to Emily White. The first article is written by Travis Morrison, formerly of the Dismemberment Plan. The second is by Bob Lefsetz of The Lefsetz Letter. The third is by Jeff Bishop who responds to Emily White and David Lowery as well as Bob Lefsetz. Hey Dude From Cracker, I'm Sorry, I Stole Music Like These Damned Kids When I Was A Kid (The Huffington Post) The David Lowery Screed (The Lefsetz Letter) Response To Emily White's Post on "All Things Considered" Via NPR (Jeff Bishop) Edited June 20, 2012 by Jahfin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstork Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 More folks weigh in, all with counter arguments to David Lowery's reply to Emily White. The first article is written by Travis Morrison, formerly of the Dismemberment Plan. The second is by Bob Lefsetz of The Lefsetz Letter. The third is by Jeff Bishop who responds to Emily White and David Lowery as well as Bob Lefsetz. Hey Dude From Cracker, I'm Sorry, I Stole Music Like These Damned Kids When I Was A Kid (The Huffington Post) The David Lowery Screed (The Lefsetz Letter) Response To Emily White's Post on "All Things Considered" Via NPR (Jeff Bishop) Travis Morrison's is pretty dopey, full of poor comparisons. Lefsetz's is cranky, but so is he (I read his stuff fairly regularly). To me, Lowery's screed is very personal. He's talking about friends who offed themselves, this means a lot to him. To accuse him of "bullying" or basically saying "get over yourself" is off base to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Agreed, especially on Lefsetz. Lowery's reply to Emily never once struck me as condescending or bullying. The bottom line, at least to me is, if you steal music you're robbing the artist of money that deserves to go into their pocket. They earned it and they worked hard for it so any profits should go to them. Anyone that's even the least bit familiar with my posts on this forum over the years knows that I adamantly support live music; local, regional and otherwise. I buy CDs, vinyl, merch, etc. in an effort to help support my favorite musicians. Yes, there are also exceptions where some artists give away their music in an effort to just get their names out there. I do my best to support them as well by attending their shows and buying merch. I'm not perfect by any stretch but I do what I can to support the music I love and the musicians who make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUK Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Great read and it has sparked many spirited discussions. I'm shocked by the lack of moral compass on this issue. I get from some that it's ok to steal if the artist is wealthy. As if perceived success is a measure for thievery. Complete moral relativism. Great discussion. Disturbing revelations about the buying public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagesbow Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 A great article from David Lowery. It's quite scary how you can just go on to YT and type in, for example: "Led Zeppelin - full album" and there it all is....the entire back catalogue. I clicked on Nick Drake's Pink Moon album and found this comment which maybe sums up how some of the younger generation views music: fantastic channel! i love "pink moon" although it makes me terribly sad.. one thing though: instead of putting the actual song duration in the info, you might want to put up the starting point of each song instead! so one can maneuver easily to each single song! wortundfreiheit 3 months ago How inconvenient that they couldn't navigate track by track through such a long album (28 mins) that they were listening to for free in the first place! It's almost like someone going to the supermarket, buying your food with their money, then feeling hard done by when they don't prepare the meal, and literally place the food in your mouth. I'm sure they would attempt to justify their actions in this case by stating the fact that Nick Drake is dead, and Led Zeppelin have sold over 300 million records - so I they really hurting anyone's livelihood? It's this type of "fan" that seems to constantly bemoan the state of today’s music; apologising for the likes of Bieber and Ga Ga - they wonder where their generations Led Zeppelin is? Maybe, just maybe, you get what you pay for and you get the bands you deserve. The irony is, is that many music "fans" (of all ages, it seems) complain about there being no good new music around; when they are clearly too lazy to find it, despite it being easier than ever to do so - but even if they found it - would they be willing to actually pay for the music and support it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lake of Shadows Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Thanks Jahfin... interesting articles. I buy my music, regardless of the format. I may make 'mix tapes' for myself, but they're done from music I've purchased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 A very well written article of you ask me. Basically the quite legitimate arguement agenst pillaging record companies and indeed of goverement control of the net has been co opted by those making a ton of money from illegal downloads to further there business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Taken from another thread: Sorry to disagree Jahfin, Lowery is against what he calls "free culture". Here you can borrow a book for free, the owner encourages it. Is there anything immoral in this scheme? (Lowery says "free culture" is attempting to "change our principles and morality"). I disagree a lot with Mr. Lowery, he's the one misinforming the public about free culture, but probably I should write my thoughts on that other thread. The image has a lot to do with the debate, imagine there were CDs in that bin, instead of books? The bottom line to me is, if you are illegally downloading an officially released album from a website then you are stealing money from that artist. How are they supposed to make a living if people steal money from them by illegally downloading their records? Edited June 22, 2012 by Jahfin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjin-san Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Thanks Jahfin... interesting articles. I buy my music, regardless of the format. I may make 'mix tapes' for myself, but they're done from music I've purchased. Same here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) David Lowery Might Be Right About Some Things, But He’s Wrong About Streaming, Money, and Artists (evolver.fm) Edited June 22, 2012 by Jahfin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janvier Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 On the issue of downloads there can be no doubt, it's infringement. You cannot make any copies of a copyrighted work except for the fair use provisions contained in sections 107 through 118 of the law. I don't agree with Mr. Lowery on many points, especially when he says that Ms. White "has been been badly misinformed by the Free Culture movement". The Free Culture movement isn't remotely what he says. That's why I suggest reading authors like Lawrence Lessig, Florent Latrive. Lessig is the author of Free Culture: How Big Media Uses Technology and the Law to Lock Down Culture and Control Creativity, a book published in 2004. If you have the time, or if you're interested in the subject, read these authors, then re-read Lowery, then make your own conclusions. Part of the difficulty stems from the word "free" itself. "To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer” (source: http://www.gnu.org/p...free-sw.en.html). There's already a wealth of cultural production: music, photography, books, that's in the realm of free culture. These are works of art whose authors have decided to publish under a Creative Commons license. Search the Internet for Creative Commons items. You can download them, re-use them, in some cases make your own improvements to the work of art. The problem with the music industry is that it's trying to sell CDs the same way it did twenty years ago, without realising that technological innovation has occurred. The business model was based on scarcity, whereas the Internet has eliminated scarcity. The business model must change. Every industry, whether in pharmaceuticals, software, automobile, devotes a portion of its profits to research & development. Why shouldn't the music industry? Instead of blaming the technology and accusing the users, the music industry should be critical and reinvent itself. Copyright law has to reflect the new technological situation, because right now it's hindering creativity (Lessig, 2004). Personally I don't like to download mp3s. I like purchasing a CD, a book, I like to read and browse the interior booklets: the full album experience. There are other points where I don´t agree with Mr. Lowery, for instance, when he mentions the deaths of two important singer-songwriters and he suggests that this had to do with the loss of income from downloads. Assuming this is true, does this mean that the health care system in the United States is perfect and provides universal coverage for everyone, whether artist or lay person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 I don't think it's ok to steal by illegally downloading officially released albums. No matter how you slice it, when you do that, you're stealing from the artists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janvier Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I don't think it's ok to steal by illegally downloading officially released albums. No matter how you slice it, when you do that, you're stealing from the artists. Jahfin, I said in the first paragraph: "On the issue of downloads there can be no doubt, it's infringement. You cannot make any copies of a copyrighted work except for the fair use provisions contained in sections 107 through 118 of the law", I'm not slicing anything, I just wanted to describe what Free Culture really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 Jahfin, I said in the first paragraph: "On the issue of downloads there can be no doubt, it's infringement. You cannot make any copies of a copyrighted work except for the fair use provisions contained in sections 107 through 118 of the law", I'm not slicing anything, I just wanted to describe what Free Culture really is. Understood. I'm just stating my stance on illegal downloading, which is theft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janvier Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 If you ever have the time visit jamendo.com it's a music site governed by Creative Commons, noone will bother if you download music from there and it's far from what Lowery says of free culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted June 23, 2012 Author Share Posted June 23, 2012 I prefer to compensate artists for their work by paying for their records, not by stealing from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom kid Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Understood. I'm just stating my stance on illegal downloading, which is theft. What's your opinion on ripping a friend's cd onto your computer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahfin Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 What's your opinion on ripping a friend's cd onto your computer? Technically that would still be considered stealing but by the same token I've made plenty of mixtapes for friends over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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