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Oh no, another question about Osaka 29th Sept'71!


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The first bootleg I ever bought was called "Live In Japan" on The Amazing Kornyphone Record Label (TAKRL 1966). Side one had Tangerine/Moby Dick/Celebration Day and side two had Immigrant Song/Heartbreaker/Stairway To Heaven. The sound was awful with the drums and one cymbal in particular very high in the mix, the audio ran slow, and as each track progressed the stereo deteriorated as one channel faded down. Clearly I had no idea how bad the sound would be when I bought it back in 1976. That said, I loved hearing the chatter between the band members, Bonzo seemingly vanishing - oh the joy as Plant comes out with "f*ck you mate, where'd he go?" - and then buying time playing Tangerine. It also had a terrific drum solo if you like marching bands and silly walks (or Max Wall as Bonzo says).

Needless to say this turned out to be a very early issue of bits of the 29th September'71 Osaka concert. I read that there are now multiple versions available of the complete show, one of which is the Wendy 2012 "Led Zeppelin Regalia 929" digitally remastered 2011 edition. Is this recording as good as it gets?

Thanks,

Nigel

Edited by nigelss
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There are many, many versions available, and folks have very different opinions about which is best.

Wendy's "Fatally Wanderer Definitive Edition" - which was the most recent Wendy version until "Regalia 929" came out - has been considered by many the overall best, combining a pretty good tonal balance with a virtually complete recording patched from multiple sources. Most folks seem to consider it the best of the versions that are sourced directly from tapes. However, I haven't heard "Regalia 929," nor have I seen any discussion of it online. So I can't say if it's an improvement, or a misguided butchering of the sound.

There's a whole other group, which are digitized from vinyl sources. Many folks feel the original vinyl boots have some added warmth and/or clarity in places. I believe the theory is that these releases used now-lost master or 1st-gen tapes, whereas it appears all the modern, tape-based releases use 2nd-gen tapes.

There's more than one vinyl boot that serves as a source for these digitized-LP releases. Because no vinyl release ever covered the entire show, the vinyl-based downloadable releases all combine multiple LPs and/or patch missing parts with tape-based sources.

Among these, Tarantura recently came out with a 40th Anniversary edition that's quite good, using multiple vinyl sources and patching with tape-based sources when necessary. And a bunch of guys calling themselves "Group/Personal" did one called "Spirited Away" - very incomplete, but a nice digitizing and remastering of a vinyl source.

Among the tape-based releases besides Wendy's "Fatally Wanderer," Tarantura's previous release, "Kurofune," kind of sucks; avoid it. And while I personally find much to like in it, lots of people have really criticized Empress Valley's "Otoku Doahou" because of its high volume and prominent tape hiss (from a boosted high end).

A lot of people like Eddie Edwards' fan compilation "Common Complaint in Osaka, Rice in Hair" - but this is from tape sources and has some wonky edits because it was done years ago on a DAT machine rather than a computer. Edwards' notes on this say Empress Valley used his compilation, smoothed out the edits, and issued it as "You Were There in Spirits." If so - and if Empress Valley didn't otherwise screw it up - that could be worth checking out too.

Finally, a few folks have released the 2nd gen tape, and other audience tapes, with more natural, bare-bones mastering than the bootleg labels. Dadgad has one of the most well-known of these. Dadgad is a great guy and does fantastic remasterings, but I'm not a fan of this particular release of his, compared to what else is out there for this show.

For a not entirely complete but pretty good sampling of what's out there, you can check out this page:

http://www.rambleonz.../1971-09-29.htm

Edited by tmtomh
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Wow - thanks for the rapid and comprehensive response. I did try to find out about Regalia 929 before posting and like you I didn't find anything particularly enlightening about it on-line. I visited the link you give at the end of your post but didn't actually see any reviews of the various recordings there. Was I missing something?

Thanks,

Nigel

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A lot of people like Eddie Edwards' fan compilation "Common Complaint in Osaka, Rice in Hair" - but this is from tape sources and has some wonky edits because it was done years ago on a DAT machine rather than a computer. Edwards' notes on this say Empress Valley used his compilation, smoothed out the edits, and issued it as "You Were There in Spirits." If so - and if Empress Valley didn't otherwise screw it up - that could be worth checking out too.

So that's why some of the edits are so atrocious! I have to disagree with Eddie, though - owning (as I do) a copy of You Were There in Spirits, I can attest that it sounds almost nothing like Common Complaint.

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Wow - thanks for the rapid and comprehensive response. I did try to find out about Regalia 929 before posting and like you I didn't find anything particularly enlightening about it on-line. I visited the link you give at the end of your post but didn't actually see any reviews of the various recordings there. Was I missing something?

Thanks,

Nigel

Some of the links on the lefthand side of that page will go to reviews (the Collectors Music Reviews icons/links in particular).

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The first bootleg I ever bought was called "Live In Japan" on The Amazing Kornyphone Record Label (TAKRL 1966). Side one had Tangerine/Moby Dick/Celebration Day and side two had Immigrant Song/Heartbreaker/Stairway To Heaven. The sound was awful with the drums and one cymbal in particular very high in the mix, the audio ran slow, and as each track progressed the stereo deteriorated as one channel faded down. Clearly I had no idea how bad the sound would be when I bought it back in 1976. That said, I loved hearing the chatter between the band members, Bonzo seemingly vanishing - oh the joy as Plant comes out with "f*ck you mate, where'd he go?" - and then buying time playing Tangerine. It also had a terrific drum solo if you like marching bands and silly walks (or Max Wall as Bonzo says).

Needless to say this turned out to be a very early issue of bits of the 29th September'71 Osaka concert. I read that there are now multiple versions available of the complete show, one of which is the Wendy 2012 "Led Zeppelin Regalia 929" digitally remastered 2011 edition. Is this recording as good as it gets?

Thanks,

Nigel

You might also want to check out this thread: http://www.royal-orleans.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=26340.

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Just listening to a few tracks from Wendy's new "Regalia 929" release. It's surprisingly good. Clearly there's been some noise reduction applied - and some will hate that - but it's generally pretty lightly applied. And there's been some pretty decent EQ'ing, improving the tightness of the rhythm section without the boominess that sometime plagues EVSD's "Otoku Doahou" release.

Only heard about 20% of the setlist so far, but it seems to be a nice release.

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Okay, after more listening, I'm having a lower and lower opinion of the new "Regalia 929" release from Wendy. There seems to be a good deal of distortion on the tape that's not present on some other releases (though it is present on others). Certainly not the worst release, but I don't think it beats Wendy's own previous "Fatally Wanderer Definitive Edition."

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You might also want to check out this thread: http://www.royal-orl...hp?f=21&t=26340.

Many thanks for that, made for some interesting reading about the probable source of the recording. :thanku:

Okay, after more listening, I'm having a lower and lower opinion of the new "Regalia 929" release from Wendy. There seems to be a good deal of distortion on the tape that's not present on some other releases (though it is present on others). Certainly not the worst release, but I don't think it beats Wendy's own previous "Fatally Wanderer Definitive Edition."

Oh well, something else to go and find then! (edit: having just tried Immigrant Song off "Definitive Edition", of the two I think I prefer Regalia 929 on the basis of that track)

I did also wonder about the DADGAD "1971.09.29 2nd Gen" which is just the "soundboard" recording sampled at 48K (so from DAT) which sounds very nice, far less bassy.

Cheers!

Edited by nigelss
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Inspired by nigel's questions and discussion, I finally combed through my six versions and made a composite version of the show with the (IMHO) best sounding tracks from each version. I ended up not using "Regalia 929" or Tarantura's "Geisha 40th Anniversary" at all. I found Wendy's "Fatally Wanderer Definitive," EVSD's "Otoku Doahou," Group/Personal's "Spirited Away," and Cobra's "Live in Japan" to be my favorites. (I applied light noise reduction to the EVSD - I think it's got great presence and seems to be lacking some of the audio breakup and distortion in most other sources - but they boosted the highs and therefore cranked up the hiss, so some NR is essential to make it listenable.)

I've had dadgad's version in the past. I believe it's got some 32kHz pieces in it; and I find it a bit thin and distorted in places. Not his fault at all - it's a pure transfer. But this is a weird tape and I think it needs some "active mastering" to sound decent. There are likely many who would disagree with me I know.

At any rate, My favorite version of Immigrant Song comes from "Spirited Away." That release also has the best-sounding versions of Tangerine and Since I've Been Loving You (again IMHO).

From the Cobra I used That's the Way and Rock & Roll, which I thought sounded best on that release.

All the rest I used the EVSD or the Fatally Wanderer Definitive.

Edited by tmtomh
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  • 1 month later...

I have EVSD's "You Were There in Spirits" and TDOLZ Vol. 82: "929".

So far I've had no complaints...EVSD's seems a little more clear and crisp sounding...almost like a soundboard, as you can hear Bonzo talking to Mick and the band. It's also more complete than the TDOLZ and other versions I've sampled.

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  • 2 weeks later...

TDOLZ's version of 929 is I'd say worth considering if you really dislike the drum/cymbal heavy mix of the famous tape although it does change to the old inferior 929 source close to the end and has very deep bass. Personally I really like this source for the acoustic set, very clear with a nice sense of space.

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  • 9 months later...

Blimey - been a while since I started this topic - how time flies. I recently came across an article in which one of the japanese engineers who recorded the Osaka 29th Sept. show explained how it was recorded and what the so-called soundboard source actually is. I'm kicking myself because I didn't bookmark the page. If I found the reference here somewhere, apologies and stop reading now!

I'm going from memory now, but the show was recorded using two eight track (or was it six track?) machines. The engineers hooked up a two track machine to record a "memento" of the show for themselves but they had a lot of problems due to the close attention being paid to their activities by the Zeppelin crew, hence the breaks in continuity. I don't recall if the article mentioned how it got out. If you know where I read this, please let me know.

Currently listening to disk 3 of LSD-57/58/59 - Whole Lotta Love melody which some kind person has uploaded to a well-known video streaming site. The sound is not very "stereo" - having just written that, at around 22 minutes bursts into stereo as You Shook Me starts! Sounds like the infamous Bonham cymbal is under control too.

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I was wondering the same thing...if what we have is/was those recordings, then those two didn't know what the f*ck they were doing. I LOVE the show, but the muddiness of the sound makes it difficult to listen to very often - except for the acoustic set, which is one of the best ever! Love how long and hypnotic "Going To California" is from that night! :stereo:

The double 8-track recordings of Japan 1971 haven't yet entered circulation.

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I was wondering the same thing...if what we have is/was those recordings, then those two didn't know what the f*ck they were doing. I LOVE the show, but the muddiness of the sound makes it difficult to listen to very often - except for the acoustic set, which is one of the best ever! Love how long and hypnotic "Going To California" is from that night! :stereo:

I have just been been listening to the second and third CDs of Regalia 929 played on VLC player into headphones and by using the extended settings graphic equaliser was able to get it sounding nice. To round off the night while I type this it's looping Immigrant Song which is just brilliant - the lengthy tail section is rather like being pinned to a wall by a nuclear explosion. I just love hearing the interactions between the band members throughout the show as well. They were really on fire that night. I don't understand why Bonham keeps on moaning about "falling apart" when he plays so well. It also has the only version of Moby Dick that I actually like to listen to what with its marching band sections etc. :bravo:

Edited by nigelss
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  • 3 weeks later...

Found the reference to the original taper again. It was in a thread over at Royal Orleans - http://www.royal-orleans.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=26340&start=25 - quite a way down the page in a post by Bootrock on Saturday December 29th 2012 8:51am. The reference comes from an article in Crossbeat magazine (japanese). There is a nice picture of the cover in the thread. It's on this site as well.

To quote the post (verbatim other than for corrected spolling mistooks, some language issues):

This is not an audience recording. Taper himself confessed in CROSSBEAT(Japanese magazine). He was a member of the Japanese record company and official recording staff. Four shows were recorded with double 8 track (2inch) recorder (Tokyo,23,24,Osaka,28,29). The tapes were taken away by Richard Cole. The Taper (Japanese record company) 'secretly' separated the line and taped to 1/4inch recorder (probably 2-track machine) on 29th only (for use in just their memory - i.e. a personal copy) He didn't change the tape well because the Zep crew kept watching carefully. He didn't spill it but someone who worked at warehouse did, he said.

So there you have it. So nice to know how it was taped in the first place.

Edited by nigelss
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Found the reference to the original taper again. It was in a thread over at Royal Orleans - http://www.royal-orleans.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=26340&start=25 - quite a way down the page in a post by Bootrock on Saturday December 29th 2012 8:51am. The reference comes from an article in Crossbeat magazine (japanese). There is a nice picture of the cover in the thread. It's on this site as well.

To quote the post (verbatim other than for corrected spolling mistooks, some language issues):

This is not an audience recording. Taper himself confessed in CROSSBEAT(Japanese magazine). He was a member of the Japanese record company and official recording staff. Four shows were recorded with double 8 track (2inch) recorder (Tokyo,23,24,Osaka,28,29). The tapes were taken away by Richard Cole. The Taper (Japanese record company) 'secretly' separated the line and taped to 1/4inch recorder (probably 2-track machine) on 29th only (for use in just their memory - i.e. a personal copy) He didn't change the tape well because the Zep crew kept watching carefully. He didn't spill it but someone who worked at warehouse did, he said.

So there you have it. So nice to know how it was taped in the first place.

How can we be sure that story's genuine?

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  • 5 months later...

How can we be sure that story's genuine?

Well, it sounds pretty solid to me.

-Warner Pioneer jP commissioned live recordings from the first JP tour (=fact)

-they had a transistorized unit 6 track (probably a typo...it's either 8 or 16 tracks in those days) =fact

-in a november 1971 Percy complained about the horrible balance of these tapes as 'just as bad as a bootleg' =fact

The stereo separation of the 'stage' recording is impossible to capture with a portable deck and stereo mic. It's in fact so focused that even Bonzo's kit is divided left right.

Yep, I'm convinced that's a genuine story. One question remains unanswered, however...The what and whereabouts of the infrequent cuts.

They're not on the obvious places (tape length). Sabotage?

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