Kashmir 1977 Problems

[theroacheart]

On various bootleg's I've heard from 1977, during Kashmir I've noticed John Paul Jones and Jimmy Page have trouble coordinating the beat change. Sometimes it seems John Paul messes it up, sometimes it seems Jimmy is to blame. I thought this was just the one bootleg I had of the show "For Badge Holders Only", but I've since heard several other bootlegs from the same 1977 tour and the same flub seems to occur. On FBHO it's at about the 2:15 into Kashmir, right before Robert sings the "Baby...I've been flying" line. Has anyone ever read an interview or heard JPJ or JP talking about this being a particulary difficult song to coordinate? Maybe it's because they didn't have their badgeholders with them?

[DavidZoso]

John Paul Jones said in something I read that he always forgot the transition with the part coming out of the 'Oh, I been flying... mama, there ain't no denyin'

I've been flying, ain't no denyin', no denyin' part going into the

'All I see turns to brown, as the sun burns the ground ' He even said that he had a piece of a paper on the mellotron/Keyboards to help him remember.

The version from LA 6-23-77 is one of the ones where they had trouble and the one in Zurich 6-29-80.

The version in New York 6-7-77 also had some problems but more towards the end of the song.

[Strider]

The two parts of "Kashmir" that usually caused problems for them were the breakdown after the second verse("baby, I've been flying") and the ascending chord part at the end.

I believe it was the ascending chord part that Jones taped a reminder note to his keyboards for.

Of course, if they had all been sober they probably wouldn't have had the trouble they did remembering the changes.

[Elderer]

Well thankfully that didnt happen at O2.

[Dallas Knebs]

two codas in the song, both mentioned above, JPJ had to resort to sticky notes- particularly at the end

anyone who has covered this number knows it sneaks up especially when you are in the flow

[darthbuttchin]

The two parts of "Kashmir" that usually caused problems for them were the breakdown after the second verse("baby, I've been flying") and the ascending chord part at the end.

I believe it was the ascending chord part that Jones taped a reminder note to his keyboards for.

Of course, if they had all been sober they probably wouldn't have had the trouble they did remembering the changes.

This is what makes me mad. How come, even as high as they were (or drunk etc) where they able to play so generally well? If I try to perform after having just one beer I;m literally useless.

It's not fair!

[Strider]

This is what makes me mad. How come, even as high as they were (or drunk etc) where they able to play so generally well? If I try to perform after having just one beer I;m literally useless.

It's not fair!

Practice, practice, practice! Or maybe it's just in the genes.

[Sagittarius Rising]

This is what makes me mad. How come, even as high as they were (or drunk etc) where they able to play so generally well? If I try to perform after having just one beer I;m literally useless.

It's not fair!

I feel your pain brother, it does not affect me quite like that but I do have a "sweet" spot after a fashion. When I try to perform 100% sober I am too stiff, I play well but my fluidity is only at about 80% max and my improv skills 70%. However, if I have a couple of bourbons or a little (and I mean little, I am a serious lightweight) bit of the old medical marijuana I will perform at peak, very fluid, improv easy and in synch with my mates, and when a mistake is made I do not fluster just move right along and get back in the groove no problem. Now if I exceed my two bourbon or one toke limit fuggetaboutit...and I am not kidding here, my performance capability goes down 90% on all fronts, cannot solo, cannot improv, chording is a bitch, and if someone told me they would give me $10,000 to play Blister in the Sun, let's just say I would walk away owing HIM money

Edited November 10, 2012 by Sagittarius Rising

[cookieshoes]

This is what makes me mad. How come, even as high as they were (or drunk etc) where they able to play so generally well? If I try to perform after having just one beer I;m literally useless.

It's not fair!

I honestly don't think that they were ever that drunk in concert. Cocaine, definitely. Weed, sometimes. Drunk, not likely. Bonham perhaps on more than a dozen occasions, but Page and Plant, and certainly Jones, no. Check the backstage photos from gigs from 69-73 and you see the band drinking orange juice, a single beer, tuning their instruments, smoking a cigarette, and combing their hair. They were performers first, partiers second. There are shots of Page with a Coca Cola near his amp in 1969. The backstage photos from Blueberry Hill show the band having a conversation in an empty dressing room, waiting to go onstage.

The two-dozen-groupies-in-the-dressing-room-and-the-band-is-wasted-onstage-thing is a serious myth, largely fueled by all of the hairmetal dudes in the 80s who were trying so hard to imitate what they thought Zeppelin was about. They took the Hammer of the Gods story and ran with it. Anything close to debauchery didn't really happen for Zeppelin until 75-77, and that was in the context of the band as a corporate giant. So, private planes, 40 person entourage, etc. Still not quite the "I'm drunk all the time" thing. Go figure that by then the band was much more prone to mistakes onstage. Too many elements added to what had always been a simple setup.

[woz70]

Well thankfully that didnt happen at O2.

Actually it very nearly did.....

Jonesy starts to do the ascending chords for the very last section a few bars early, but you can see him catch himself and turn it into another eastern noodly bit. He looks like he's concentrating pretty hard throughout the whole song.

[Dallas Knebs]

nice catch

and JPJ was locked on the entire performance, huge effort put forth

Actually it very nearly did.....

Jonesy starts to do the ascending chords for the very last section a few bars early, but you can see him catch himself and turn it into another eastern noodly bit. He looks like he's concentrating pretty hard throughout the whole song.

[Sagittarius Rising]

I honestly don't think that they were ever that drunk in concert. Cocaine, definitely. Weed, sometimes. Drunk, not likely. Bonham perhaps on more than a dozen occasions, but Page and Plant, and certainly Jones, no. Check the backstage photos from gigs from 69-73 and you see the band drinking orange juice, a single beer, tuning their instruments, smoking a cigarette, and combing their hair. They were performers first, partiers second. There are shots of Page with a Coca Cola near his amp in 1969. The backstage photos from Blueberry Hill show the band having a conversation in an empty dressing room, waiting to go onstage.

The two-dozen-groupies-in-the-dressing-room-and-the-band-is-wasted-onstage-thing is a serious myth, largely fueled by all of the hairmetal dudes in the 80s who were trying so hard to imitate what they thought Zeppelin was about. They took the Hammer of the Gods story and ran with it. Anything close to debauchery didn't really happen for Zeppelin until 75-77, and that was in the context of the band as a corporate giant. So, private planes, 40 person entourage, etc. Still not quite the "I'm drunk all the time" thing. Go figure that by then the band was much more prone to mistakes onstage. Too many elements added to what had always been a simple setup.

Well, for 77' Page was quite drunk onstage many times and I think that contributed to his sticky fingers much more than the drugs. Even though Page did his share of drugs, I really think his main issue was alcohol, yes the heroin made him rail thin but his playing was probably affected much more by the alcohol IMO.

[tom kid]

I honestly don't think that they were ever that drunk in concert. Cocaine, definitely. Weed, sometimes. Drunk, not likely. Bonham perhaps on more than a dozen occasions, but Page and Plant, and certainly Jones, no. Check the backstage photos from gigs from 69-73 and you see the band drinking orange juice, a single beer, tuning their instruments, smoking a cigarette, and combing their hair. They were performers first, partiers second. There are shots of Page with a Coca Cola near his amp in 1969. The backstage photos from Blueberry Hill show the band having a conversation in an empty dressing room, waiting to go onstage.

The two-dozen-groupies-in-the-dressing-room-and-the-band-is-wasted-onstage-thing is a serious myth, largely fueled by all of the hairmetal dudes in the 80s who were trying so hard to imitate what they thought Zeppelin was about. They took the Hammer of the Gods story and ran with it. Anything close to debauchery didn't really happen for Zeppelin until 75-77, and that was in the context of the band as a corporate giant. So, private planes, 40 person entourage, etc. Still not quite the "I'm drunk all the time" thing. Go figure that by then the band was much more prone to mistakes onstage. Too many elements added to what had always been a simple setup.

Numerous pictures of Page backstage in 1975 holding a 40oz of Jack Daniels would beg to differ. In an interview he also said that the O2 was the first Zeppelin gig he ever played sober. It has also been said that he literally had to be carried off stage after the show on the 28-5-77. Granted, the liquor would have crept in more and more later in the bands career but there is no denying that Jimmy was seriously wasted on stage when playing a lot of the time. Bonzo would have been smashing the liquor before and during the show as well no doubt, especially in the breaks during Dazed and Confused, No Quarter etc. Likewise for the rest of the band when he was playing Moby Dick.

Edited November 13, 2012 by tom kid

[theroacheart]

Thanks for the info on Jones and his sticky notes. I always thought something like Dazed and Confused (especially the 1975 version) and No Quarter (1977 version) would be harder to remember changes on since those could run upwards of 40 minutes. Then again it seems like they could read each other's minds from time to time. I was listening to Southhampton 1973 and during How Many More Times, Robert sings the chord change right before the Bolero section, waiting for Jimmy to pick up on it, which of course he does. It's stuff like this on the bootlegs that makes me wish there was more video of Zeppelin filmed in the fashion of the Live 02 concert. Getting to see their expressions to each other while playing is awesome.

[chillumpuffer]

I honestly don't think that they were ever that drunk in concert. Cocaine, definitely. Weed, sometimes. Drunk, not likely. Bonham perhaps on more than a dozen occasions, but Page and Plant, and certainly Jones, no. Check the backstage photos from gigs from 69-73 and you see the band drinking orange juice, a single beer, tuning their instruments, smoking a cigarette, and combing their hair. They were performers first, partiers second. There are shots of Page with a Coca Cola near his amp in 1969. The backstage photos from Blueberry Hill show the band having a conversation in an empty dressing room, waiting to go onstage.

The two-dozen-groupies-in-the-dressing-room-and-the-band-is-wasted-onstage-thing is a serious myth, largely fueled by all of the hairmetal dudes in the 80s who were trying so hard to imitate what they thought Zeppelin was about. They took the Hammer of the Gods story and ran with it. Anything close to debauchery didn't really happen for Zeppelin until 75-77, and that was in the context of the band as a corporate giant. So, private planes, 40 person entourage, etc. Still not quite the "I'm drunk all the time" thing. Go figure that by then the band was much more prone to mistakes onstage. Too many elements added to what had always been a simple setup.

I would expect that the band enjoyed a few beers and some joints before playing most shows especially in the heady days of say 69-72. Does Plant not mention the fact that they had a "smoke" backastage before the LA Forum June 72 show encore?

The word "Drunk" is a bit of a misnomer.

[bluecongo]

Your innocence is admirable, but Zep, esp. Mr Page & Mr Bonham, were pretty soused from 75 forward.

[Strider]

I honestly don't think that they were ever that drunk in concert. Cocaine, definitely. Weed, sometimes. Drunk, not likely. Bonham perhaps on more than a dozen occasions, but Page and Plant, and certainly Jones, no. Check the backstage photos from gigs from 69-73 and you see the band drinking orange juice, a single beer, tuning their instruments, smoking a cigarette, and combing their hair. They were performers first, partiers second. There are shots of Page with a Coca Cola near his amp in 1969. The backstage photos from Blueberry Hill show the band having a conversation in an empty dressing room, waiting to go onstage.

The two-dozen-groupies-in-the-dressing-room-and-the-band-is-wasted-onstage-thing is a serious myth, largely fueled by all of the hairmetal dudes in the 80s who were trying so hard to imitate what they thought Zeppelin was about. They took the Hammer of the Gods story and ran with it. Anything close to debauchery didn't really happen for Zeppelin until 75-77, and that was in the context of the band as a corporate giant. So, private planes, 40 person entourage, etc. Still not quite the "I'm drunk all the time" thing. Go figure that by then the band was much more prone to mistakes onstage. Too many elements added to what had always been a simple setup.

This thread is about the problems the band occasionally had performing "Kashmir", which made its concert debut in 1975.

So for the purposes of this thread, 1968-73 does not matter. My remark about them perhaps being able to remember the changes in "Kashmir" if they weren't so fucked up obviously means 1975-80.

In 1975, because of his smashed finger, Jimmy was knocking back Jack Daniels to deaden the pain. The guy barely weighed 100 pounds...it wouldn't take much to get him sauced. Bonzo, of course, was hitting the Heineken...along with the Ludes. By 1977, well, all you had to do was look at them to tell the state they were in.

Hell, I give them all credit that they were all able to still perform for over three hours and remain upright...it attests to their superhuman stamina and added to their godlike mystique. Other bands would get fucked up and barely be able to play an hour.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Strider

[Dallas Knebs]

Hell, I give them all credit that they were all able to still perform for over three hours and remain upright...it attests to their superhuman stamina and added to their godlike mystique. Other bands would get fucked up and barely be able to play an hour.

The stamina is unthinkable even now. And at the O2, I think they left the stage with plenty in the tank and could have gone on quite a while longer.