Knebby Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 As bad as that was, it could have been worse...no, it wasn't a happy ending by any stretch of the imagination, but at least the band was able to go out with their dignity intact, and a bit of class. Potentially breaking up in a shitload of rancour and resentment whilst out on the road would have been an embarrassing blot on their image, but that was probably the way it would have ended if Bonham had lived... So the band "losing their dignity" in a public break up WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE than John Bonham dying??????????????????? What the hell???? BTW, UK tour dates were already set for after the US 1980 tour. Quote
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 quite frankly I think Page and Peter Grant really showed their true colours by skipping Karac's funeral. It was pretty obvious where their allegiances lie during that period- they picked drugs over giving moral support Why does JPJ escape your judgement? Regardless, people grieve in their own way (or sometimes not at all for whatever the reason) which is not to say that isn't hurtful & disappointing. Quote
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 BTW, UK tour dates were already set for after the US 1980 tour. As I understand it the tentative plan was a Scandanavian tour in Nov '80, UK dates "around Christmas" with a second US leg to follow in Spring '81. I've never seen anything suggesting any dates/cities/venues were set aside from Helsinki. It seems Swan Song was still cooordinating the details of the Scandanavian tour when tragedy struck. Not trying to start a semantic argument here...I think you know I'm a zealot for the minutiae. Quote
Knebby Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Oh yeah SAJ, I know, and I know that the usual suspects will jump all over me saying that my evidence isn't in writing anywhere- but Bonzo told me at Alright Now about the planned 3 nights at Newcastle City Hall on the UK leg and, well, I believe him Quote
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Oh yeah SAJ, I know, and I know that the usual suspects will jump all over me saying that my evidence isn't in writing anywhere- but Bonzo told me at Alright Now about the planned 3 nights at Newcastle City Hall on the UK leg and, well, I believe him Well I believe you and certainly appreciate the significance of this revelation with regard to their level of ambition for the ill-fated UK tour. Quote
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 Just read an excerpt from Hoskyn's book that was available on the Internet. According to Janine Safer and Unity MacLean, Jimmy Page had a problem with food; he didn't like to eat it. Several times he became so underweight, he got sent to rehab to fatten him up (MacLean's choice of words, not mine). Add chronic malnutrition to his other problems in 1980 and his chances of completing an American tour didn't look good. He did chose to go off solids during the first leg of the 1977 North American tour, keeping a blender in his hotel room at all times. When asked why he replied he was "trying to photosynthesize like a plant". Quote
kenog Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 SAJ, I am sure that their respective partners/spouses would have encouraged them to attend. I am wondering if there was a collective decision made not to attend in order that a small child's funeral did not turn into a media circus. There might have been saddos who would turn up to take photos of 'all the band together'. Why does JPJ escape your judgement? Regardless, people grieve in their own way (or sometimes not at all for whatever the reason) which is not to say that isn't hurtful & disappointing. Quote
The Only Way To Fly Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 After reading the book I think its quite possible a number of folks (Grant, Bonzo, Cole, or Page) could have passed away on the 1980 North American Tour. I enjoyed the structure of the book quite a bit. Quick short bursts of info made it an easy, informative & very quick read. Thanks for recommending it. Quote
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) SAJ, I am sure that their respective partners/spouses would have encouraged them to attend. I am wondering if there was a collective decision made not to attend in order that a small child's funeral did not turn into a media circus. There might have been saddos who would turn up to take photos of 'all the band together'. Bonzo attended which rules out the "collective decision" theory. I've covered this topic before...suffice to say it seems that during the break between shows (July 25-29) Page elected to remain in California. JPJ left Oakland with his family the morning of the 25th for Oregon in a winnebago. When Grant, Plant & Bonham checked in at the Maison Dupuy Hotel in New Orleans on Tue the 26th there was a message for Robert to call home. Robert was accompanied on his flight home by John Bonham and Dennis Sheehan. They were flown to London via Newark...Sheehan disembarked in London with Bonzo & Robert continuing on in a small private plane to Birmingham. Richard Cole attended the service. He may recall if Jimmy & JPJ ever made it to New Orleans. Some say they did but 35+ years later recollections can be hazy. Edited March 20, 2013 by SteveAJones Quote
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 After reading the book I think its quite possible a number of folks (Grant, Bonzo, Cole, or Page) could have passed away on the 1980 North American Tour. I enjoyed the structure of the book quite a bit. Quick short bursts of info made it an easy, informative & very quick read. Thanks for recommending it. Grant had already decided that Cole would not accompany them on the '80 US tour as Cole was imprisoned in Italy around this time. Quote
Nutrocker Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 So the band "losing their dignity" in a public break up WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE than John Bonham dying??????????????????? You mean you would have liked to have seen Zeppelin dissolve in a bunch of petty squabbling and infighting like Oasis or something? Becoming a real life Spinal Tap? Why does JPJ escape your judgement? Regardless, people grieve in their own way (or sometimes not at all for whatever the reason) which is not to say that isn't hurtful & disappointing. JPJ gets a pass from me because he always tried to steer clear of the bad craziness surrounding the band. He was an outsider by choice. Sure, I suppose he could have gone to the funeral, but I really don't think anybody expected him to. Page and Peter Grant on the other hand were conspicuous by their absence. Quote
Knebby Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 You mean you would have liked to have seen Zeppelin dissolve in a bunch of petty squabbling and infighting like Oasis or something? Becoming a real life Spinal Tap? Rather than Bonzo dying????? Yes yes yes 100 million times without ANY hesitation! Quote
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 JPJ gets a pass from me because he always tried to steer clear of the bad craziness surrounding the band. He was an outsider by choice. Sure, I suppose he could have gone to the funeral, but I really don't think anybody expected him to. Page and Peter Grant on the other hand were conspicuous by their absence. Well, at the end of the day to each their own opinion. I still find it touching that on the '95 Page/Plant tour Robert often changed the lyric in Carouselambra from "Where was your helping? Where was your bow?' to "Strong is your armour, strong is your bow". If I misheard at least the spirit of reconciliation was obvious. Quote
kenog Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 I am not near my LZ book collection, so I am working from memory (not a good idea!!), but I am sure I recall in either HOTG or STH, that Richard said that Peter Grant asked Robert who he wished to accompany him home to the UK, and that he (RC) was one of those chosen, and he was indeed on the flight. Apologies if I am wrong about this. Bonzo attended which rules out the "collective decision" theory. I've covered this topic before...suffice to say it seems that during the break between shows (July 25-29) Page elected to remain in California. JPJ left Oakland with his family the morning of the 25th for Oregon in a winnebago. When Grant, Plant & Bonham checked in at the Maison Dupuy Hotel in New Orleans on Tue the 26th there was a message for Robert to call home. Robert was accompanied on his flight home by John Bonham and Dennis Sheehan. They were flown to London via Newark...Sheehan disembarked in London with Bonzo & Robert continuing on in a small private plane to Birmingham. Richard Cole attended the service. He may recall if Jimmy & JPJ ever made it to New Orleans. Some say they did but 35+ years later recollections can be hazy. Quote
SteveAJones Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 I am not near my LZ book collection, so I am working from memory (not a good idea!!), but I am sure I recall in either HOTG or STH, that Richard said that Peter Grant asked Robert who he wished to accompany him home to the UK, and that he (RC) was one of those chosen, and he was indeed on the flight. Apologies if I am wrong about this. I'm posting from my notes which are certainly not infallible. If the book(s) don't confirm I will ask Richard. Quote
Disco Duck Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 ...JPJ gets a pass from me because he always tried to steer clear of the bad craziness surrounding the band. He was an outsider by choice. Sure, I suppose he could have gone to the funeral, but I really don't think anybody expected him to. Page and Peter Grant on the other hand were conspicuous by their absence. Not so fast. From what I've read, when Jones' father died in 1970, Plant, Page and Bonham all attended his funeral. If Plant went to the trouble to pay his respects when the elder Jones died, Jones should have returned the favor when Plant's son died. The $64,000 question is did he learn about Karac's death in time to attend? Quote
Knebby Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) Yes, he did. But I'll add, I don't find retrospective analysis like this to be very helpful, to anyone. Edited March 20, 2013 by Knebby Quote
TheStairwayRemainsTheSame Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 The whole unfortunate Karac situation is very tricky to just judge like that, you can't put blame at anyone's door in a time like that, nor do you have the right to. Quote
Disco Duck Posted March 20, 2013 Posted March 20, 2013 The whole unfortunate Karac situation is very tricky to just judge like that, you can't put blame at anyone's door in a time like that, nor do you have the right to. Fair enough. Quote
Melcórë Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 Yes, he did. But I'll add, I don't find retrospective analysis like this to be very helpful, to anyone. It's all we have - it's no longer the 1970s. As time goes on, people become more and more interested in the historical context... The whole unfortunate Karac situation is very tricky to just judge like that, you can't put blame at anyone's door in a time like that, nor do you have the right to. I'd say it's fairly easy to judge...especially when the floodgates are opened by people who talk. Quote
TheStairwayRemainsTheSame Posted March 21, 2013 Posted March 21, 2013 It's all we have - it's no longer the 1970s. As time goes on, people become more and more interested in the historical context... I'd say it's fairly easy to judge...especially when the floodgates are opened by people who talk. How is it? It's such a distressing time, how do you know what what was going on in the member's minds at the time? Quote
Disco Duck Posted May 5, 2013 Posted May 5, 2013 Ooh, here's the one I think you're talking about: DAVID BATES: I believe Jim had got up to his old politics, in terms of the way he was treating band members. You see, there's a big elephant in the room, and no one talks about it. There are things from way back - some very heavy things that really hurt Robert that were never addressed. The issue of Jimmy not being at Karac's funeral is part of it, but it's not all of it. It gets even bigger than that, and when you start delving into it and you hear the stories, you sit there and go, "Are these people his mates? Do they not realize what this man is going through?" I'm not a pyschologist or a therapist, so if you think I'm going to be the one who goes, "There's the elephant, let's fucking deal with it," you're wrong. I'd just hope that Robert and Jimmy could sit down and talk about it. But you know what, the elephant is so fucking big now; I don't know if they ever will. It's okay when Jim is making overtures to Robert, but eventually the overtures will stop, and then we're back to where we were before. The above quote puzzles me. Particularly the following sentences: "Are these people his mates? Do they not realize what this man is going through?" At first, I assumed he was talking about Plant's bereavement following Karac's death. But the more I read of Hoskyn's book, the more convinced I am that Bates was referring to Page when he made that comment. What do other posters think? Quote
kenog Posted May 5, 2013 Posted May 5, 2013 Disco Duck, I am pretty sure from the rest of the paragraph that it is Robert to whom Bates is referring. The line "....some very heavy things that really hurt Robert that were never addressed..." would suggest that. Having said that, I think that it would be helpful if any references to Karac's funeral and its attendees became off-limits on this site. (I am not referring to you in particular - I mean all of us). The matter of who didn't attend, and why not, would be best discussed privately amongst those directly involved. The above quote puzzles me. Particularly the following sentences: "Are these people his mates? Do they not realize what this man is going through?" At first, I assumed he was talking about Plant's bereavement following Karac's death. But the more I read of Hoskyn's book, the more convinced I am that Bates was referring to Page when he made that comment. What do other posters think? Quote
Disco Duck Posted May 5, 2013 Posted May 5, 2013 Disco Duck, I am pretty sure from the rest of the paragraph that it is Robert to whom Bates is referring. The line "....some very heavy things that really hurt Robert that were never addressed..." would suggest that. Having said that, I think that it would be helpful if any references to Karac's funeral and its attendees became off-limits on this site. (I am not referring to you in particular - I mean all of us). The matter of who didn't attend, and why not, would be best discussed privately amongst those directly involved. Hoskyn's book is a fascinating read but, one problem I'm having with it is the lack of context to many of the quotes. As a result, many of them raise more questions than they answer. Quote
kenog Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Disco Duck, The lack of context is a criticism that I have read online from quite a few readers. Having said that, it is my favourite LZ book so far - I like the fact that Hoskyns gives the place and time of the interviews. Also, he was able to get contributions from those who haven't been heard publicly on the subject of LZ. I found a piece of info on almost every page which was new to me. I would love to see any parts of the interviews which he was unable to publish. Hoskyn's book is a fascinating read but, one problem I'm having with it is the lack of context to many of the quotes. As a result, many of them raise more questions than they answer. Quote
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