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Barney Hoskyns book


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  • 3 weeks later...

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread TBH. One book seems to have suddenly turned the guys in this band into the worst bastards in the world. Take a few steps back people this is NOT the whole picture. I never have and never will argue that these guys were perfect angels, but the way this thread has been heading lately just depresses me every time I come here.

We'll never have the "whole picture." I'd argue that whitewashing the history of Led Zeppelin is equally as bad as a one-sided vilification of their characters -- which, to be fair, is not what I took away from Hoskyns' book. Is there (at times, unbridled) negativity? Yes -- but I found the book masterful in it's (mostly) unbiased approach, presenting the quotes in context with one another, without the sensation of "leading" which is often found in traditional interviews/narratives.

The fact is that they were/are people, with just as many problems (and sometimes more) as the rest of us.

...That being said, I can't help but feel that people are willing to give Robert a "pass" for any "bad behaviour" in which he might have taken part, due to his personal tragedies. The recent thread going on about that woman he shacked up with in 1977? That was pathetic...

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Throughout the second half of the book, I felt the only people who took Jimmy's side were Ross Halfin and Brad Tolinski, which was quite sad. It was all about him being on drugs and Bonham drinking, but no one really offered any kind of help or support. It's just what I got from the book, not saying it was really that way.

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Throughout the second half of the book, I felt the only people who took Jimmy's side were Ross Halfin and Brad Tolinski, which was quite sad. It was all about him being on drugs and Bonham drinking, but no one really offered any kind of help or support. It's just what I got from the book, not saying it was really that way.

What's that saying, "Hindsight is 20/20". It's so obvious to us today that Plant and Jones should have given Page, Grant and Bonham an ultimatum: "Clean up your acts or we're out of here!" Of course, that would have required that Plant and Jones themselves give up drugs. Just like it's obvious to us NOW that Grant's favoritism towards Page wasn't always in the band's best interest.

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What's that saying, "Hindsight is 20/20". It's so obvious to us today that Plant and Jones should have given Page, Grant and Bonham an ultimatum: "Clean up your acts or we're out of here!" Of course, that would have required that Plant and Jones themselves give up drugs. Just like it's obvious to us NOW that Grant's favoritism towards Page wasn't always in the band's best interest.

I was not talking about an ultimatum, but about help, but I don't think there were many recovering rock star drug addict support groups in the 70s. Maybe some compassion and support from the people that were closest to the band, who just seem to diss Page and Bonham.

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We'll never have the "whole picture." I'd argue that whitewashing the history of Led Zeppelin is equally as bad as a one-sided vilification of their characters -- which, to be fair, is not what I took away from Hoskyns' book. Is there (at times, unbridled) negativity? Yes -- but I found the book masterful in it's (mostly) unbiased approach, presenting the quotes in context with one another, without the sensation of "leading" which is often found in traditional interviews/narratives.

The fact is that they were/are people, with just as many problems (and sometimes more) as the rest of us.

...That being said, I can't help but feel that people are willing to give Robert a "pass" for any "bad behaviour" in which he might have taken part, due to his personal tragedies. The recent thread going on about that woman he shacked up with in 1977? That was pathetic...

I have never white-washed the history - of ANY of the band members or the band as a whole - and wouldn't advocate it. It also wasn't the book I was calling negative, so quoting me and responding in this way is odd.The "pass" you see for Robert I see for Jimmy because of his drug use and /or genius, and for Jonesy because he was the quiet one/unsung hero/ is still with his wife today. Perspectives will always be different. My point in the post you quoted was that the focus of this thread had swung to almost a completely negative angle, which was unfair and depressing.

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I was not talking about an ultimatum, but about help, but I don't think there were many recovering rock star drug addict support groups in the 70s. Maybe some compassion and support from the people that were closest to the band, who just seem to diss Page and Bonham.

Both Robert and Jonesy have stated in separate interviews over the years that the main reason why they didn't approach Bonzo and I'm guessing Jimmy about their substance abuse is because that's not how their relationships were. Looking back, both agreed the times were much different and as you say, agreed that getting someone help wasn't in the same realm as it is today. This is clearly why Robert still has a heavy heart for Bonzo. They had more than a working relationship. They were mates. Bonzo was regarded as superhuman by those closest to him that loved him the most. I'm sure every one of them went through every single scenario in their heads a million times that could have prevented what happened. But you can't change it. And the only positive I see from his tragic passing is it's probably what saved Jimmy's life.

And in all honesty, no one but Robert knows what he did and/or said (if he did) to Bonzo about his problems before his passing. And honestly, none of us have a right to know. You have to draw a line somewhere. But again, Robert's heavy heart for Bonzo speaks for itself. I've grown slightly disenchanted with this whole discussion really. The book is good. They acted like silly assholes who conquered the world until heavy drug use filtered into the operation. And then that world crumbled. We still have the timeless music for eternity. I guess I'm stricken by the lack of respect and common sense pertaining to certain elements here that shouldn't need to be discussed in the first place.

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I have never white-washed the history - of ANY of the band members or the band as a whole - and wouldn't advocate it. It also wasn't the book I was calling negative, so quoting me and responding in this way is odd.The "pass" you see for Robert I see for Jimmy because of his drug use and /or genius, and for Jonesy because he was the quiet one/unsung hero/ is still with his wife today. Perspectives will always be different. My point in the post you quoted was that the focus of this thread had swung to almost a completely negative angle, which was unfair and depressing.

Maybe I shouldn't have quoted you directly -- it was mostly an open response...the thing is that people buy too much into one side of the story over the other, positive or negative, depending on their preferences. I try to be somewhat in the middle...like I said, they're people with problems just like everyone else. Imperfect in their natures.

To be fair to Jones, doesn't he deserve something of a reprieve? He and his wife have clearly been able to better resolve their difficulties, and he was never as openly adulterous as was Robert or Jimmy.

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To be fair to Jones, doesn't he deserve something of a reprieve? He and his wife have clearly been able to better resolve their difficulties, and he was never as openly adulterous as was Robert or Jimmy.

Maybe not, but it wasn't Page or Plant who were involved in the infamous "Royal Orleans" incident in New Orleans in 1973 :lol: Still, I'm sure Jonesy gets an A in fidelity compared to those two, and it is certainly admirable that John and Mo have indeed made it work and have been together all these years...the only other Rock couple I can think of with such longevity are Charlie and Shirley Watts, who will be celebrating their fiftieth anniversary next year (!)

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What I would like to say is that no member of the band ever killed anybody; nor did they rob a bank. All they did was produce the finest rock recordings of all time, together with memorable live performances.

...That being said, I can't help but feel that people are willing to give Robert a "pass" for any "bad behaviour" in which he might have taken part, due to his personal tragedies.

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What I would like to say is that no member of the band ever killed anybody; nor did they rob a bank. All they did was produce the finest rock recordings of all time, together with memorable live performances.

No, they didn't...but they did do other things, and in the public eye, which is why the dirt is always dredged up again with each new interview/book.

Maybe not, but it wasn't Page or Plant who were involved in the infamous "Royal Orleans" incident in New Orleans in 1973 :lol: Still, I'm sure Jonesy gets an A in fidelity compared to those two, and it is certainly admirable that John and Mo have indeed made it work and have been together all these years...the only other Rock couple I can think of with such longevity are Charlie and Shirley Watts, who will be celebrating their fiftieth anniversary next year (!)

No comment! :P

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This is starting to become one of the most read Zep books

For good reason, imo. It's the first time that so many people who interacted with the band, it's individual members or entourage went on the record with their experiences and observations. Not only is it a compelling read, it is also a good source of information for anyone who wants to write a band member's biography.

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I don't see how you can say that - there are 480 + replies to this topic, many are by the same members. This is one of my favourite books on Zeppelin, without a doubt, but for years and years all us Zepp fans had to go on was Howard Mylett's book and Michael Gross' s book on Plant, and then Dave Lewis' books, and sadly, Hammer of the Gods . You would have to go a long way past 480 to beat the sales of those books.

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Let's not forget the Richie Yorke book. That was the first LZ biography that I ever bought. It wasn't full of earth shattering revelations, but I consider it to be very respectful of the band members and their music.

I can still remember buying the first copy of TBL, albeit that is not a book. Thank God Dave Lewis is still around producing the goods for LZ fans.

but for years and years all us Zepp fans had to go on was Howard Mylett's book and Michael Gross' s book on Plant, and then Dave Lewis' books, and sadly, Hammer of the Gods .

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1976. I was ecstatic when I got it. It was sanctioned by Peter Grant apparently. I managed to get some copies of Circus magazine here in Edinburgh in the 70's, but it wasn't a regular thing in newsagents outside of London.

I feel strongly about Hammer of the Gods and Stairway to Heaven because they diverted fans away from the music and live performances.

You're right - what year was that again? The first I ever got was Howard Mylett's.

I got the first TBL too :)

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1976. I was ecstatic when I got it. It was sanctioned by Peter Grant apparently. I managed to get some copies of Circus magazine here in Edinburgh in the 70's, but it wasn't a regular thing in newsagents outside of London.

I feel strongly about Hammer of the Gods and Stairway to Heaven because they diverted fans away from the music and live performances.

Yes I always detested them.

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Let's not forget the Richie Yorke book. That was the first LZ biography that I ever bought. It wasn't full of earth shattering revelations, but I consider it to be very respectful of the band members and their music.

What I liked most about Richie's book was it portrayed the band as 'regular guys', easily the most down to earth representation of the group, the diabolical opposite of a piece of tabloid shite like Hammer Of The Gods. Having said that, though, considering Yorke's book was IIRC at least semi-authorized, it was very sanitized, to say the least. Not to say he made them look like choirboys or anything :lol: but having read it after reading HOTG I was like, "Wow...where's all the drugs and groupies in this story?!" And I must admit, not having that aspect of their lives beat over yer head was kinda refreshing...

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As i recall, there's an interview with Page after the Ritchie Yorke book came out, and Page was not pleased at all. It was definitely NOT authorized; Page said that the book was "a classic case of someone abusing their access to us" , and that it would be nice to have a good book out that somehow explained the band other that just by its music. He was also pissed at Circus magazine because around that time (1975-6), Circus published a paperback called "Robert Plant" by Michael Gross. The most ironic thing about this is that , by comparison to what has come out since, those 2 books were about as sanitized and tame as humanly possible! There's not a mention of drugs/ groupies/ violence/ plagiarism/ etc. from cover to cover in either book! Jimmy was just a control freak, and also did not like anyone cashing in on the Zep name. As for how he felt about Howard's book, there's no record. Lastly, in the later edition of Yorkes book, he did add new interviews with Page/Plant, so they must have gotten over their initial feelings years later (probably after Hammer of the Gods/ etc came out).

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Rip-It-Up,

Here's an excerpt from Ritchie Yorke's Wiki page (I know, I know Wikipedia isn't an authoritative source) which I assume has been compiled by Yorke or his PR:-

"...He moved back to London to respond to an invitation from Peter Grant, Led Zeppelin's manager, to write the sanctioned biography of the foremost band of the ’70s.

For the next five years, Yorke maintained an extremely tight relationship with the reclusive Zeppelin members. He accompanied them on tour as their special guest and wrote more words about the band than any journalist anywhere. As singer Robert Plant has noted: "Ritchie's alright … he's been one of us from the beginning."

Now, this may be revisionist history on Yorke's part. We don't know. What I do know, is that in the opening chapter of the Hoskyns book, the author relates having met Jimmy at a function. JPP on hearing of Hoskyns plan to write the book invited him to the Tower House where he didn't take him into the main part of the house, but instead talked to him in the little flat over the garage. Jimmy was anxious to know what Hoskyns was going to write. Jimmy seems to be touchy about anybody writing anything about LZ, even if it is as innocuous as the Yorke book most certainly was.

As i recall, there's an interview with Page after the Ritchie Yorke book came out, and Page was not pleased at all. It was definitely NOT authorized; Page said that the book was "a classic case of someone abusing their access to us" , and that it would be nice to have a good book out that somehow explained the band other that just by its music.

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  • 1 month later...

Both Robert and Jonesy have stated in separate interviews over the years that the main reason why they didn't approach Bonzo and I'm guessing Jimmy about their substance abuse is because that's not how their relationships were. Looking back, both agreed the times were much different and as you say, agreed that getting someone help wasn't in the same realm as it is today. This is clearly why Robert still has a heavy heart for Bonzo. They had more than a working relationship. They were mates. Bonzo was regarded as superhuman by those closest to him that loved him the most. I'm sure every one of them went through every single scenario in their heads a million times that could have prevented what happened. But you can't change it. And the only positive I see from his tragic passing is it's probably what saved Jimmy's life.

And in all honesty, no one but Robert knows what he did and/or said (if he did) to Bonzo about his problems before his passing. And honestly, none of us have a right to know. You have to draw a line somewhere. But again, Robert's heavy heart for Bonzo speaks for itself. I've grown slightly disenchanted with this whole discussion really. The book is good. They acted like silly assholes who conquered the world until heavy drug use filtered into the operation. And then that world crumbled. We still have the timeless music for eternity. I guess I'm stricken by the lack of respect and common sense pertaining to certain elements here that shouldn't need to be discussed in the first place.

Well, I ordered the book so we'll see. But, hum..OK, the biggest band in the world did drugs, screwed groupies, were selfish, had big egos and were reckless and destructive (self destructive)...and that's news? Sounds like every band back in the day, it was the 70's; free love, sex, drugs and rock n' roll. No news there. It is upsetting, however, regarding what seems to be totally ignorance regarding Jimmy's downfall and it breaks my heart. I'm timid when it comes to reading about it. Clearly, he was messed up (I'm not judging), but you've got your band mate, the leader, the genus, literally wasting away saying he's not eating food anymore as he's trying to 'photosynthesize' (wait, WTF?) and clearly hooked on nasty H and there's no help? How could they not look at him and NOT try to reach out? Maybe they did? I'm so glad he pulled through. Jimmy was the conservative, reserved one, never swore, didn't smoke, etc...and the business just sucked him in and spit him out. I'm not sure the death of Bonzo saved him, he progressed further into isolation, drugs and depression. Jimmy at the ARMS concert, although he did it and for his friend, brings tears to my eyes, literally (not sure why this upsets me so much) but heroin..why? I believe it was after that concert when it got help and he did pull through it. What is upsetting is that he was in 'that place'. Maybe he doesn't talk about it because he's so FAR from it now. He also has children, grandchildren and, i would imagine, doesn't want to continually 'go there'.
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Well, I ordered the book so we'll see. But, hum..OK, the biggest band in the world did drugs, screwed groupies, were selfish, had big egos and were reckless and destructive (self destructive)...and that's news? Sounds like every band back in the day, it was the 70's; free love, sex, drugs and rock n' roll. No news there. It is upsetting, however, regarding what seems to be totally ignorance regarding Jimmy's downfall and it breaks my heart. I'm timid when it comes to reading about it. Clearly, he was messed up (I'm not judging), but you've got your band mate, the leader, the genus, literally wasting away saying he's not eating food anymore as he's trying to 'photosynthesize' (wait, WTF?) and clearly hooked on nasty H and there's no help? How could they not look at him and NOT try to reach out? Maybe they did? I'm so glad he pulled through. Jimmy was the conservative, reserved one, never swore, didn't smoke, etc...and the business just sucked him in and spit him out. I'm not sure the death of Bonzo saved him, he progressed further into isolation, drugs and depression. Jimmy at the ARMS concert, although he did it and for his friend, brings tears to my eyes, literally (not sure why this upsets me so much) but heroin..why? I believe it was after that concert when it got help and he did pull through it. What is upsetting is that he was in 'that place'. Maybe he doesn't talk about it because he's so FAR from it now. He also has children, grandchildren and, i would imagine, doesn't want to continually 'go there'.

You seem to hit the nail on the head at the end. I think Pagey has been clean for a while now -- Peter Mensch mentioned (yesterday) that he doesn't even drink anymore, arguably his greater vice throughout the years.

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Well, I ordered the book so we'll see. But, hum..OK, the biggest band in the world did drugs, screwed groupies, were selfish, had big egos and were reckless and destructive (self destructive)...and that's news? Sounds like every band back in the day, it was the 70's; free love, sex, drugs and rock n' roll. No news there. It is upsetting, however, regarding what seems to be totally ignorance regarding Jimmy's downfall and it breaks my heart. I'm timid when it comes to reading about it. Clearly, he was messed up (I'm not judging), but you've got your band mate, the leader, the genus, literally wasting away saying he's not eating food anymore as he's trying to 'photosynthesize' (wait, WTF?) and clearly hooked on nasty H and there's no help? How could they not look at him and NOT try to reach out? Maybe they did? I'm so glad he pulled through. Jimmy was the conservative, reserved one, never swore, didn't smoke, etc...and the business just sucked him in and spit him out. I'm not sure the death of Bonzo saved him, he progressed further into isolation, drugs and depression. Jimmy at the ARMS concert, although he did it and for his friend, brings tears to my eyes, literally (not sure why this upsets me so much) but heroin..why? I believe it was after that concert when it got help and he did pull through it. What is upsetting is that he was in 'that place'. Maybe he doesn't talk about it because he's so FAR from it now. He also has children, grandchildren and, i would imagine, doesn't want to continually 'go there'.

Exactly who would have helped him? The members in the band didn't have that sort of relationship (by most accounts) and arguably the only person who might have been able to dictate an intervention to Jimmy was Peter Grant. Whatever comradery that had existed in 1970 was deeply strained by substance abuse by 1977. While the other books that delve into the dark side attempt to glorify it, this book doesn't do that. Instead, it deftly tells how the business can swallow up those who allow it.

And Jimmy had begun cleaning up before the Arms Concert. While it wasn't until 1982-83 when he finally began healing himself, there's no disputing how much Bonzo's death effected him. And based on the path Jimmy was heading, it wasn't looking good. The once brilliance he showed both on stage and in the studio had become a staggered incarnation of his past self. The 1980 US Tour could have been an absolute train wreck. Then again, it could have been brilliant.

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