Mass Shooting at Elementary School Connecticut 12/14/12

[ally]

What I'm finding really hard to get my head around is the "from my cold dead hands" mentality, that completely stubborn refusal to even consider LOOKING at what can be changed. Quite honestly if I was a gun - owner or part of the pro-gun lobby ( I recognise they can co-exist) my first thoughts after this tragedy would have been "What do we have to change to try to stop this from happening? What am I prepared to compromise?" - not "They're not gonna use this as an excuse to trample on MY rights!!!" . The priorities just seem completely and utterly wrong.

You've said it better than I ever could. Spot on

[Leather Apron]

I'm WELL aware of that. One mass shooting in the 16 years since. I'd say that makes it a success compared to the record in the US. FACT.

(And that's CumbRia)

And I'm just gonna add, the word "success" was tasteless there, I'm sure it wouldn't be considered that by the relatives and friends of those in Cumbria - it was a horrible day.

How then were the people of Cumbria saved by the extra restrictive new gun laws created AFTER Dunblane?

New restrictive gun laws cannot prevent crazy/evil people from doing great harm to others if it is their will to do so.

FACT

[Knebby]

Del - you say you don't have a personal crusade against me but it couldn't be more apparent. I'm not gonna bother trying to communicate with you again, it's pointless. I've already given my answers here, you just choose not to see them, just as you choose to ignore being banned from here. Goodbye.

Edited for spelling

[Leather Apron]

What I'm finding really hard to get my head around is the "from my cold dead hands" mentality, that completely stubborn refusal to even consider LOOKING at what can be changed. Quite honestly if I was a gun - owner or part of the pro-gun lobby ( I recognise they can co-exist) my first thoughts after this tragedy would have been "What do we have to change to try to stop this from happening? What am I prepared to compromise?" - not "They're not gonna use this as an excuse to trample on MY rights!!!" . The priorities just seem completely and utterly wrong.

The "priorities" in a free society are to defend liberty. However, I am willing to compromise by suggesting that criminals be banned from owning guns.

[Leather Apron]

Del - you say you don't have a personal crusade against me but it couldn't be more apparent. I'm not gonna bother trying to communicate with you again, it's pointless. I've already given my answers here, you just choose not to see them, just as you choose to ignore being banned from here. Goodbye.

Edited for spelling

Lady, I'm not sure who you think I am, but I don't know you. The subject matter here is supposed to be about this terrible event and not an opportunity for people to spout off about their political views on gun control.

[ally]

Lady, I'm not sure who you think I am, but I don't know you. The subject matter here is supposed to be about this terrible event and not an opportunity for people to spout off about their political views on gun control.

What do you and others think is a sensible solution to insure public safety while still maintaining your consitutional right to bare arms ? Serious question

[Knebby]

I don't have any political views on gun control.

[Old Shep]

I would be interested in how those in favour of gun-totin' split in party terms. Are the pro-guns mostly Republicans?

[Leather Apron]

What do you and others think is a sensible solution to insure public safety while still maintaining your consitutional right to bare arms ? Serious question

Constitutional rights are not tied to public safety. So that needs to be understood and accepted. But to answer your question on this event: A reasonable reaction would be to take a harder look at how we deal with mentally ill and emotionally disturbed young people in our society.

[Reggie29]

Constitutional rights are not tied to public safety. So that needs to be understood and accepted. But to answer your question on this event: A reasonable reaction would be to take a harder look at how we deal with mentally ill and emotionally disturbed young people in our society.

You forgot one important thing. Not giving them access to guns or is that too much to ask?

[Reggie29]

I couldn't have said it better myself. I would add the mass deportation of illegal immigrants & death sentences for drug traffiking and/or drug possession to the list. The legislators can haggle over the fine print but these principles should be upheld.

First of all, we all have a duty of care for our own and others personal safety. When we drive cars for example, in the workplace and especially with guns.

Who is going to pay for the deportations? Good luck getting it out of the governments or the aliens of origin.

Unless you introduce a "Berlin Wall" mentality with sharpshooters to keep them out, which is very extreme and ridiculous, you will never be able to stop them no matter how many you manage to deport.

It depends on what type and quantity of drugs?

[MollyHendrix]

That's your counterpoint? I seriously doubt anyone could cause the carnage this gunman did in the course of what I'm hearing is 2-5 minutes with a damn pair of scissors or knives. Did you see the list of those kids? The ME said some were shot multiple times, as in "5 to 7."

It's not a counterpoint, it is just a point. Guns do make it easy to kill, that is what they were made for. But you don't start by taking away guns to find the answer. We need more responsible parents to raise responsible kids, who then raise more responsible people so on and so forth.

I understand the tragedy that comes with guns, my friend was shot in the face and killed. I am deeply hurt by this, but I don't blame the gun at all, he wasn't being responsible. If we have more responsible people in this country we would have less of a problem.

[Old Shep]

death sentences for drug possession

Great idea! Especially if you include tea, coffee, alcohol and tobacco on your list of drugs! Hell yeah!!!!

[Kiwi_Zep_Fan87]

Words cannot describe how I felt on hearing about this tragedy. I found it really really hard to choke back the tears as I learnt that the majority of the victims were children!

My mom is an Early Childhood Educator and she has the pleasure of interacting with kids between the ages of 3 and 5. She just couldn't believe it when I told her what had happened at Sandy Hook Elementary!

I just felt so sick to my stomach today when I saw the list of victims on CNN. Like President Obama said, the victims were beautiful children who had their whole lives ahead of them!

I firmly believe in the fact that children are our future. They should be cherished, nurtured and protected!

As for fuckin' in the politics involved with regard to gun control, I am going to refrain from airing my opinions on this thread, because honestly, I will not be able to control myself if someone starts an argument with me and I might do something that I might regret! I cannot possibly "debate" with anyone because I am still emotionally exhausted after reading about this horrific tragedy!

[ally]

A reasonable reaction would be to take a harder look at how we deal with mentally ill and emotionally disturbed young people in our society.

We agree there

[Walter]

Just heard an interesting statistic, over 283,000 guns were sold over the recent "Black Friday" weekend - an all-time record in this country for weekend sales.

Why would the assault weapon that was used, be legally owned? What use would it have other than shooting a bunch of people rapidly and repeatedly?

[Rock Historian]

Hi Rock Historian. Hm, I'm not quite sure what spun you into a tizzy? And I'm not sure why you chose my post to spin this into an anti-police state debate... Lemme guess, you're a cop, right? haha! But that's fine, I got time, let's do this.

I think you missed my first post, so here it is again for you, buddy.

Armed Guards at grocery stores? Where do you live, Israel? Haha, Walmart! You're talking about the squirty little car with a blinking light on it, right...? You know they don't carry a firearm, right? Well maybe they do...in Israel! Yea! Checkpoints at the mall! That's what everybody wants.

Remember our recent exposure to Martial Law: Hurricane Katrina? Ha, yea, that went smoothly...everyone played by the rules!

Well, I don't pump my gas at Taco Bell nor do I buy my deli meat at a lumber yard. DUH, who the hell else would you plan to call? That's their job. That's what your tax-dollars go towards. "To protect and Serve". And there are places in the US where calling 911 or the police isn't going to help save your life, or solve a crime. Especially if you're black. That is a FACT and it should not be forgotten.

There is no call for paranoia. But its a legitmate concern. It's called Checks and Balances. Also, police are public servants. They are a part of local government paid for with your tax dollars. Government.

For the record, Historian, I never said this was an issue of fearing the government. (Again, refer back to my original post on the general matter of gun control.) Possibility leaning towards unlikely. The police are not psychic. They cannot foresee the unforeseeable. I'll quote shnflacwav here.

Thank you shnflacwav.

Whoa, take it easy brother. First, who the hell do you think you are to tell me what should or should not be in my thought processes, and secondly, where the hell are you getting "big brother notion" from? One sentence...ONE sentence, I say, and you've attacked me and twisted it into a rally for the police. WTF?

This is a very popular quote, you may have heard it before.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ..." - Benjamin Franklin

Lemme start by saying that I mean no disrespect to you regarding this topic and I know we all mean well here. This mass killing has sparked many questions,, conversations and concerns. And that's how it is here. Even if ONE mass shooting would occur in a lifetime, it's one too many. I know you are here with good intentions, as we all are. So I'm sorry if we have to start off on the wrong foot. Id much rather talk Zeppelin with you, but we are here and this is the topic.

My problem is this "Police State" comment. They are in public places here and nothing has changed my life (invasion of privacy from government) because of it. These are local law enforcement police. Not the FBI or army.

That being said, I'll try and be quick, not to waste my time or yours. But you got it dead wrong. I live in New Orleans, not Israel. YES, there are cops in Mall's, Groceries, Sam's-Walmart for basic presence, and no, they don't ride around in a goofy clown car. And, I don't feel "threatened" or in "fear" of a police state because of that. They are in some schools where the kids are like animals...that get spot checked everyday, and I'm fine with that if weapons are or were an issue. And I don't really give two shits if some guy said it didn't work in a high school, because it works just fine and effectively in the school i'm talking about. Maybe that HS school, your referring to had a clown car??? So where do you live, is the question? You mean to tell me you have never been to a public place and saw a cop inside or outside the place, or walking around...? I find that hard to believe my friend.

And I'm not a cop, nor am I scared of them or think that having them in certain places will turn us into "A Police State" as you asked/commented to #1ZepFan. That's totally ridiculous...That's YOUR way of thinking, not mine. Your taking it to the utmost extreme. As I quoted to you above, they don't need to rely on cops in schools, Malls etc to take over your life/privacy, if FEAR of government comes into your mind, over that. C'mon man, are you for real?

Again, ever read 1984?

That one little sentence you wrote regarding "A Police State" says a lot, so you didn't need to write an essay to "spark" my interest.

Bringing up Ben Franklin, I think if the men who wrote the constitution could see how this country is run/going today, they's be rolling in their graves over disgust and they'd be quick to change a few laws.

Remember, this isn't the same world they hoped or built this country to be.........by far.

Whether that's the governments fault or people in general, I don't know-but it's not what it was founded on any longer.

I don't have the answers to this, nor do you or anyone else here, but ya know what-if we can fund other countries in need or supplies after a war, a disaster, etc-why can't we fund the proper location with police-if needed? That's a government issue.

So if not cops, then what? Cure mental illness nation-wide, remove guns from every home is the nation, house by house, business by business? Or just hope that one day people that own guns are ALL responsible human beings and that a gun never gets stolen and used for the wrong reasons, or sold to "a bad guy" or "sick individual".

Good Luck with that

[LedZeppfan77]

I'm not surprised in the least given the outcome of the US Presidential election which proved beyond a reasonable doubt the country has fundamentally and irrevocably changed.

But as terrible as this is, thank God there has not been another 9/11 or anything on that scale. Knock on wood. Not to make this seem trivial at all. Its bad. This fucking punk could have been stopped by most of us on this board. But not by defenseless women and children. So I hear the reports of him killing his father in Hoboken were not correct? Does anyone know exactly what happened in Hoboken?

[ledded1]

Sorry, but that rationale doesn't hold up to the logic sniff test.

That is the basic sentiment behind more government control and less privacy/freedom.

If you support such rationale, then by extension you would support government monitoring of your entire life for your own protection.

There's a fine balance between liberty and safety, and they are inversely proportional.

The more you have of one, the less you have of the other.

As a parent, my heart is heavy-laden at this tragedy and it's consequences.

No one wants to imagine the grief these families are enduring.

And I certainly can't speak for any of them.

I and most others in this country, however, would not be willing to sacrifice my/our right to liberty and privacy in the hope that something as horrible as this might not happen again.

Would it have been any different if the guy had firebombed the classroom with a molotov cocktail, or tossed an explosive into the classroom?

Removing guns does not remove evil intent.

So keep the right and freedom to be shot at anytime if that's what you want.

[ledded1]

But as terrible as this is, thank God there has not been another 9/11 or anything on that scale. Knock on wood. Not to make this seem trivial at all. Its bad. This fucking punk could have been stopped by most of us on this board. But not by defenseless women and children. So I hear the reports of him killing his father in Hoboken were not correct? Does anyone know exactly what happened in Hoboken?

My hero!!!! Perhaps you can become one of the classroom guards you seem to favour. You can then shoot any stranger on the spot in case they have evil intent or may be carrying bombs n guns, or just innocently visiting the school.

[missytootsweet]

It's not a counterpoint, it is just a point. Guns do make it easy to kill, that is what they were made for. But you don't start by taking away guns to find the answer. We need more responsible parents to raise responsible kids, who then raise more responsible people so on and so forth.

I understand the tragedy that comes with guns, my friend was shot in the face and killed. I am deeply hurt by this, but I don't blame the gun at all, he wasn't being responsible. If we have more responsible people in this country we would have less of a problem.

Victoria, I am sorry for the loss of your friend and my sympathies to you and this friend's family.

I understood your point earlier about where does it stop when you start taking away guns. There are of course, other ways to inflict massive damage on the human race. But my point was getting rid of the guns takes ONE method off the table that these criminals wouldn't be able to count on. That in and of itself logically would mean less death, accidental and otherwise.

I don't think many would disagree that the USA is a gun loving nation. In my younger days I was a strong supporter of the 2nd Ammendment. Not anymore. I don't even like the idea of guns for the "sport" of hunting down animals, the 4 legged kind.

Look at how many of these mass shootings have happened since the infamous Austin Texas Tower shooting in 1966. This country should have woken up and smelled the coffee then. We are not living in the utopian world you wish for (and me too) where we can count on all parents and people to be responsible. It seems this argument of people needing guns because the government may one day come in and take us prisoners is outdated and without rationality. At the very least, there should be mandatory background checks, a much longer waiting period, no assault weapons and severe limits on the number of guns one can own. You only have to look at the other industrialized nations to see gun control is effective at reducing violence.

As far as mental illness, I agree with those on this Board who have said this country needs to overhaul the system. We don't even have a system really. Lock them up for 3 days and a quick evaluation and let them out again to fend for themselves and try to find a way to pay for their medicine that can easily cost over one thousand dollars per month. No one can predict when someone may go over the edge, but we sure could do a better job helping those that have obvious problems. Enough politics, this is just my opinion. Others can and will disagree; I understand that.

Now I will go back to grieving for those lives lost, especially those little ones. May they rest in peace. Missy

[LedZeppfan77]

So keep the right and freedom to be shot at anytime if that's what you want.

I stand with TypeO and what he said. He is right. Does anyone know what actually happened in Hoboken? Did he kill his father or not?

[LedZeppfan77]

The shooter did not go to Hoboken and kill his father, who is alive and well and cooperating with authorities.

They really botched that one. They had originally reported that he did kill his father in Hoboken. So there must have been a murder in Hoboken because they found a body I believe? Thanks for clearing up what CNN could not

[LedZeppfan77]

The shooter killed his mother at her home in CT and then proceeded to the elementary school where she worked as a teacher's aide.

Just to reiterate what I said as the news was breaking, the media should leave criminal investigations to the proper authorities.

So he then went to that 1st grade teacher's room. I cant imagine his motivation to kill her and those poor kids? Pure evil bastard just like Leopold and that other fuck in Colombine.

[SuperStatic]

I wonder if this individual was on any SSRI's (or similar "meds") like many of these cases in the past were?

People talk about the NRA being a strong lobby group. They dont hold a candle to big Pharma.

Maybe thats where people should be looking instead of the very emotive stilmulus response and simplistic idea of "banning guns will make everything better or safe".