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Mass Shooting at Elementary School Connecticut 12/14/12


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Oh aren't you a sweet talking devil to people. Such class, such good manners. You seem match the above statement too.

One liner insults, your education served you well. That was sarcasm in case you were not clear.

This is what makes the United States the most civilized nation on earth.

Ps this is American civility

"How would you know D-bag?"

Edited by ledded1
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Well, that certainly wasn't disdainful or preachy.

No wonder we broke away to form our own country.

I'm always struck by the irony of people calling out the US about human rights, and say nothing about places like Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, Sudan, Syria, and I'll get tired of typing all the countries who have true issues concerning human rights.

The United States is one of the most, if not the most, civilized countries in the world.

Incidents like this one notwithstanding, when you take into consideration the size of our population, the vastness of ethnic and racial diversity of that population, the amount of liberty we have, and the amount of overall good we contribute back to the world, we are easily the most civilized nation on earth.

It's much easier to have harmony when the ethnic and racial diversity of a nation is relatively low, as in many Asian countries.

Tangential Analogy Alert!

The reason Mac computers are known for being more stable than their Windows counterparts is because Apple uses proprietary software, they design practically every program that runs on the Mac.

Whereas Windows must accommodate a practically infinite number of third-party programs and applications, with compatibility issues making it much more susceptible to conflict and crashes.

Such is the case with countries like Singapore, or Japan, or South Korea.

The are the Mac nations of the world, while the United States is the Windows of the world.

END Tangential Analogy Alert!

This is what makes the United States the most civilized nation on earth.

We have an infinitely more diverse yet homogenous society than most any other on earth, and there's a whole lot of us, and we still make it work.

So all of your preachy suggestions and comments are taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

You should take a long hard look at how the rest of the world sees the US right now. Civilsed isn't a word being used very much.

Thanks for the textbook analysis of American culture.

When I mentioned human rights I was talking about those children's fundamental right to life as opposed to your civil right to own a gun. Which is more important?

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This is what makes the United States the most civilized nation on earth.

Ps this is American civility

"How would you know D-bag?"

Please stop lumping us all in one bucket..

I don't assume all people from The UK are as warm and friendly as yourself..

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I do not comment on other countries issues.Do you?

Yes I do, because everything is my business, because I am a Citizen Of The World - a world the USA tends to shape, and rarely for the better.

Furthermore, although it will doubtless not have been reported over there in the Land Of The Free And The Home Of The 'Brave' (lmao), one of the victims was a 6 year old boy whose family had recently emigrated from England, in search of a 'better life'. At risk of sounding insensitive, EPIC FAIL.

That matter alone makes this my fucking business, genius.

Edited by Old Shep
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Gun ownership/control is one on the most important issues in American politics today, and it's a shame that we can't have an intelligent debate about it on this forum without resorting to immature name-calling.

One member mentioned on here that London is like the US. Another member seems to think that the UK is a safe house for terrorists, with terrorist attacks occurring on a frequent basis. I can't express how wrong they are. Everywhere in the UK, I believe, is safer than most parts of the US (the most recent atrocity that sparked this debate happened in quiet and safe community). There are fewer terrorist attacks in the UK than there were in the 1970s or even the 1980s when the IRA was at its most active. Britain has one the best intelligence services in the world which keeps this country a safe place to live.

I have some experience of staying in America, albiet limited, but I'll share it with you anyway as I feel it's relevant. I have spent all my life, 34 years, living in the UK and I've never seen or heard a single gun, and I grew up in the countryside. In 1990, aged 12, I spent a month in the US. The night we arrived someone down the road to where we staying was shot dead in their home. I was shocked. The following week we did some shopping in, I think, Walmart and next to an aisle of cuddly toys there was a huge display of guns. I was appalled and disgusted.

I would like to go back to the US and have a more positive experience, and maybe, if the government successfully changes the laws on gun ownership, I will.

With regards to the issue of so-called assault rifles, I find it hard to believe that any sane government would make it legal to acquire such a weapon. They might as well legalise the sale of anthrax for human consumption.

I read in The Gurardian newspaper here that 85 people a day are killed by guns in the US and more than twice that number are injured by them. Some members here will probably point out that more people are killed in road traffic accidents, and that would be true. The point is they are 'accidents', rather than motivated violent attacks. Statistically you are far more likely to end up dead if you own a gun.

The second amendment in the Constitution, about the right to bear arms which has been widely debated on here, is intended to safeguard the people or the state, depending on how you interpret it, against a tyrannical government. The problem is left in the hands of the individual each person gets to define 'tyranny', and this threatens the democracy and freedom upon which America as a nation is built. Indeed, the whole purpose of government is so people can live unarmed, civilian lives and not live in a constant state of fear. I would recommend that some members here look up Thomas Hobbes' 'Leviathan'.

The US needs to understand the distinction between civil rights and human rights, and recognise that the latter are more important than the former.

Not trying to create a stir, but are you certain that your choice of language here is coming off the way you intend it to?

You obviously have a deep seeded fear of guns just based on your Walmart comment. First of all, most of the Walmarts I have been to only sell hunting rifles and shotguns. That may be different in some states, but my point is that hunting rifles and shotguns are I believe still legal in the UK. Are you equally "disgusted" by fellow Brits who own hunting rifles and shotguns? If British citizens exercise their privilege (which is different than a right) to legally own a shotgun for hunting. How would you feel if someone from another country with even more restrictive gun laws said, I went to England and I was appalled and disgusted by their laws allowing hunting. They might as well legalize the sale of anthrax for poisoning defensless animals.

I find it ironic that you started out by complaining about the type of language some people have used in this discussion. And then proceeded to use slanted language of your own. But the worst part was how you felt compelled to chastise us about human rights... we don't deserve that. I am not going to spell out the history of England's human rights abuses, as I am equally disapointed about human rights abuses in our own nation's history. But it's not like we don't share similar histories in that regard. You do acknowlege that don't you?

You said, "The US needs to understand the distinction between civil rights and human rights, and recognise that the latter are more important than the former."

You need to understand that it is the people who grant power and authority to the government and not the other way around. That the right to keep and bear arms is a natural right, and not merely a privelege assigned to people by the government only to be taken away at will.

Like TypeO said, No wonder we broke away from Britain.

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You should take a long hard look at how the rest of the world sees the US right now. Civilsed isn't a word being used very much.

This is the mistake so many make about Americans.

You automatically assume we actually care what other people / other countries / "the rest of the world" thinks about us.

We don't.

Because we understand that, like us or not, we are always there when the world needs us, time and again, even though we are hated and despised even as we help the world.

And that would include helping YOUR country as well, more than a few times.

Just like when I married my wife, who is African-American, I quickly learned not to worry or care about what others thought or said about us, as they were total strangers who most likely wouldn't lift a finger to help us if we were in need.

So, excuse me if I don't give a flying fuck what you or "the rest of the world" thinks.

When I mentioned human rights I was talking about those children's fundamental right to life as opposed to your civil right to own a gun. Which is more important?

Sorry, I refuse to enter into a non-structured, do you still beat your wife? debate where you cherry-pick your issues to suit your personal objective.

Life isn't compartmentalized into the simplistic choices you've outlined.

It's a complex intermingling of life and rights and many other factors.

This is the problem when debating liberals - they tend to argue emotional concepts as opposed to stark realities.

They love issues that sound great in theory, even if they are entirely impossible to apply to the real world.

Such is the incongruity of the choices you offer me.

But, just so you understand, "those children's fundamental right to life" you so calculatingly refer to is also MY fundamental right to life, my children's fundamental right to life, and the entirety of our country's fundamental right to life.

And our civil right to own a gun is inexorably intertwined within those fundamental rights to life.

The quotation from Benjamin Franklin has already been cited here numerous times, but here it is again, lest you fail to understand the significance -

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Nothing can be done for these poor children, as they are gone.

But much worse awaits us should we fall prey to fear in the face of logic and reason.

We are an independent, a free and sovereign nation, and many more have given their lives for it to be that way.

All of those many lives that were freely given in defense of that would be for naught if we cave in because of the actions of a microscopic percentage of our total population.

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Yes I do, because everything is my business, because I am a Citizen Of The World - a world the USA tends to shape, and rarely for the better.

Furthermore, although it will doubtless not have been reported over there in the Land Of The Free And The Home Of The 'Brave' (lmao), one of the victims was a 6 year old boy whose family had recently emigrated from England, in search of a 'better life'. At risk of sounding insensitive, EPIC FAIL.

That matter alone makes this my fucking business, genius.

Great post, Old Shep! It's obvious someone around here fails to acknowledge that the United States is a melting pot of people from nations around the globe. We're supposed to pool our thoughts and ideas together to find common ground. Indeed, it would be hard for someone living in another country to judge what day to day life is for the average American and vice versa, but it doesn't make their feelings or opinions any less important than an Americans, just as Old Shep said, America has a strong presence in this world, it needs to be watched with a careful eye, just as any other powerful nation in world history.

I'd like to post this video to sort of get back on track here. If you're not a Michael Moore fan, I understand, I've been on and off the boat a few times myself, but nevertheless, the man is speaking the truth here. And if you're an American member of the forum, I feel it is your civil duty to give this a listen. In the beginning he's speaking about Leonard Peltier, so for those who have a lack of time, skip to about 6 minutes in.

Think about it...

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Yes I do, because everything is my business, because I am a Citizen Of The World - a world the USA tends to shape, and rarely for the better.

Furthermore, although it will doubtless not have been reported over there in the Land Of The Free And The Home Of The 'Brave' (lmao), one of the victims was a 6 year old boy whose family had recently emigrated from England, in search of a 'better life'. At risk of sounding insensitive, EPIC FAIL.

That matter alone makes this my fucking business, genius.

Everything is my business? Tell my all about it, your fucking fraud.

Edited by Anjin-san
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Do all those people screaming for a ban of the so called "assault weapons" realize that when Clinton passed the assault weapons ban from 1994-2004, we had the Columbine school massacre (1999, Tec-9 used to kill13, using a 10 round clip) and the DC sniper massacre (2002, Bushmaster rifle, shot 13 killing 10). And when the ban expired THERE WAS NO SIGNIFICANCE INCREASE IN CRIME OR MASS SHOOTINGS until recently?

Also, just two weeks ago. Alexus Knight in Wyoming used a bow and arrow to kill his father's girlfriend then went to a community college and used the same bow to kill an instructor. He then used a knife and stabbed himself to death in front of the class.

What we are dealing with is not a gun issue.......

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You should take a long hard look at how the rest of the world sees the US right now. Civilsed isn't a word being used very much.

Thanks for the textbook analysis of American culture.

When I mentioned human rights I was talking about those children's fundamental right to life as opposed to your civil right to own a gun. Which is more important?

I could see that comment turning into a whole other debate, but I will wisely leave that one alone. However, I pray you are not suggesting that gun owners in the United States are responsible for the evil that happened in that school are you?

For years my father proudly displayed his U.S. Army M1 Garand "military" rifle that he carried into France back in 1944. I would hope to think that there are still a few people over in Europe who believe that rifle, the one still legally owned by my family in America, did at least a small part to end evil and save children somewhere. I am very sad if the world sees us as not being civilized, but in another way, I really don't even care to want to try and make the "whole world" happy.

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You know, people who cannot behave themselves really shouldn't try to have intelligent conversations. It's this type of ignorance that hold us back. I'd report you Anjin-san for the name calling and bad behavior, but this isn't my fight.

And allow me to add, Anjin-san, you're on a UK based band's forum. So, technically, we're on THEIR turf.

Edited by scythe
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