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Mass Shooting at Elementary School Connecticut 12/14/12

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For the pro-gun people to continually invoke "the right of the people to keep and Bear arms," from the US Constitution, strikes me as a bit disingenuous. Are they saying that their fellow Americans who don't own guns, or even like guns, are somehow not living up to their civic obligations?

Dude, you're stretching the limits of credibility in your feeble attempt to make a point which is, ironically, disingenuous itself.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe you really do believe that gun supporters really are saying that.

Is the freedom to bear arms so valuable that you have to actively enjoy it? What other articles of the Constitution do you defend as strongly?

Put another way, which rights are more important to exercise - to speak, worship, or assemble freely (Amendment I)? To have a speedy trial by an impartial jury (Amendment VI)? To not be owned as a slave (Amendment XIII)? To vote, no matter your sex (Amendment XIX)?

None of the others you mentioned need defending as strongly, as they are not constantly being assailed as is the Second Amendment.

But believe me, we stand just as willing to defend those others just as strongly, should the need arise.

Hence our affinity for the Second Amendment.

Seems to me those parts of your sacred, holy, inviolable Constitution are a lot more meaningful than some precious entitlement to keep an arsenal of lethal penis substitutes in one's rec room

You want to know what makes that Constitution so sacred, holy, and inviolable?

The hundreds of thousands of loyal patriots who willingly sacrificed their lives in defense of it, that's what.

So while you sit comfortably up there in Maple Syrup Land (your description, not mine) benefiting from living in such close proximity to the greatest nation on earth while you spew your snide bullshit regarding your opinion of the thing that makes our country so, recognize we don't give a fuck what you think, and we also read the implied Thank You after everything you say to or about us.

You're welcome for having a relatively safe country to live in without bordering a nation that might otherwise walk in and make you their bitch.

You're welcome for not needing to spend a large portion of your GDP on defense, thus putting that money to good use in other areas.

And penis substitutes?

LOL

Never fails.

The most common, tried-and-true tactic used by liberals is attempting to emasculate those who they oppose.

Whether by questioning their sexual orientation or by suggesting their sexual organs are inferior, you can count on libs to concern themselves with your dick, somehow - either it's size or where you might choose to place it.

What about all the women who own firearms?

What derogatory terms do you have to account for them, seeing as they have no penis they are supposedly compensating for?

and secretly hope for an opportunity to try them on another human being.

You are a fucking idiot.

Your entire post has been one of baseless rationalizations and insulting generalizations.

You paint with your mile-wide brush all gun-owners as grim sociopaths harboring murderous intent.

Well, to second what zeppelin68 already just said, fuck you.

So spare us the rhetoric that gun ownership is no more than an expression of your "freedom," and that you don't have any personal interest in and affinity for high-powered weapons. "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is one thing, but I haven't often heard the right to bear arms defended by people who privately are opposed to gun use, or who don't already have a strong attachment to their own collection.

And spare us your own slimy inferences and blatant insults couched in the rhetoric of opposition to gun ownership.

"You haven't often heard" counts for dick with us, asshole.

But hey, at least you got to relieve some of that pent-up aggression you so obviously harbor towards our country.

Once again, you're welcome.

...before some fool comes around here, and wanna shoot either you or me...

Too late.

You've already shot us all point-blank with your flagrant asshattery.

But on a positive note, thanks for sparing us the link to your book in every single post.

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Edited because I moved this (as should other related posts) to where it belongs, on a gun thread and not here.

Edited by Reggie29

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The Second Amendment says, "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Language changes over time but the words, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed," unambiguously guarantees that the people, not merely the government have the right to possess firearms. Those who link the first clause to the second, by necessity must ignore both the common sense reading in today's language and more importantly the meaning of the language in the context of the time the Second Amendment was written. At that period in American history public policy encouraged firearm ownership and endorsed the rights of the citizens, not the government to form militias.

In point of fact, just a few years before the Bill of Rights was written, militias of citizens opposed to the existing government had formed and overthrown duly established government of the time. The people who created the Bill of Rights had done just that and were guaranteeing that right to the citizens in perpetuity.

The Second Amendment indisputably guarantees the right of individuals to bear arms. Any argument to the contrary would need to be based on the premise that although the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is an extremely well crafted document, that the authors got sloppy when they wrote the Second Amendment.

Whats changed over time is that those words are now clearly taken out of context as you do in the second paragraph.

The initial statement to me is very clearly stating that the right to bare arms shall not be infringed with the aim to maintaining a "well regulated Militia", the like of which clearly has not existed for a considerable time.

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For the pro-gun people to continually invoke "the right of the people to keep and Bear arms," from the US Constitution, strikes me as a bit disingenuous. Are they saying that their fellow Americans who don't own guns, or even like guns, are somehow not living up to their civic obligations?

I can't think of anyone, certainly here, who has suggested citizens who elect not to keep and bear arms are failing to live up to their civic obligations, but living in America in blissful ignorance of the US Constitution would be a failure to meet a civic and personal responsibility.

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The initial statement to me is very clearly stating that the right to bare arms shall not be infringed with the aim to maintaining a "well regulated Militia", the like of which clearly has not existed for a considerable time.

Sorry greenman, this is incorrect. I can only encourage you to refer to the links I have already provided or look into it further elsewhere. As a by the way, well-regulated militias do continue to exist, the National Guard being just one example.

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It was not your government who got into debt, it was big business and greedy banks that screwed your country financially (along with the rest of the world) and left your government to bail them out, that caused thje dollar to devalue and brought on "hyper-inflation".

Actually it was the socialist minded represenatives in our government who were able influence public policy to REQUIRE banks to make home loan mortgages to people who did not have sufficient means or abilty to actually pay those loans back. This done under some false pie in the sky ideal that says that everyone is entitled to EVERYTHING. And then since businesses are in competition (how capitalism works) there was a rush to make more and more of these bad loans under the false belief that the government would guarantee them. Toxic dept created by social liberals caused the real estate bubble. Although I'm sure you won't ever be convinced.

So if I was you I'd be taking any frustration about going broke, out on them.

I'd like to see companies like Microsoft, Apple, Exxon and the tobacco industry et al do their bit too but being the capitalists they are I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'd like to see people stop whining about the wealth other people have and start doing something for themselves. Start being responsible for themselves for a change.

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Actually it was the socialist minded represenatives in our government who were able influence public policy to REQUIRE banks to make home loan mortgages to people who did not have sufficient means or abilty to actually pay those loans back. This done under some false pie in the sky ideal that says that everyone is entitled to EVERYTHING. And then since businesses are in competition (how capitalism works) there was a rush to make more and more of these bad loans under the false belief that the government would guarantee them. Toxic dept created by social liberals caused the real estate bubble. Although I'm sure you won't ever be convinced.

I'd like to see people stop whining about the wealth other people have and start doing something for themselves. Start being responsible for themselves for a change.

Man are you both off the mark and factually wrong. Yes, the government stepped in to ensure EVERYONE including low income people could get into the housing market but the government NEVER required ANY bank to issue a loan to anyone who could not qualify under normal lending practices. It was the BANKS who chose to loan and market these loans aggressively to low income households they knew would default because the sub-prime market was based on the very premise of this group defaulting, that is how they made their money. If this group would have somehow been able to pay these insane mortgages the banks and brokerage firms would have lost BILLIONS! So no, it was not any "socialist" entity that caused this crisis, it was the uber greedy capitalist anti-regulation assholes who did.

This time I am purposely coming across harshly toward you because I am sick of such Goebbels style propaganda from you right wing tools. You and your kind are the problem, you and your kind caused this whole financial crisis, and you and your kind are selfish children who will not be satisfied until you have stolen all the toys and burned down the playground. Merry Christmas Uncle Scrooge!!!

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Actually it was the socialist minded represenatives in our government who were able influence public policy to REQUIRE banks to make home loan mortgages to people who did not have sufficient means or abilty to actually pay those loans back. This done under some false pie in the sky ideal that says that everyone is entitled to EVERYTHING. And then since businesses are in competition (how capitalism works) there was a rush to make more and more of these bad loans under the false belief that the government would guarantee them. Toxic dept created by social liberals caused the real estate bubble. Although I'm sure you won't ever be convinced.

So why did the banks take them up?

Greed.

I know how capitalism is supposed to work but it has its flaws as much as any ideology does.

Not everything, just education, health and the right to live without fear.

I'd like to see people stop whining about the wealth other people have and start doing something for themselves. Start being responsible for themselves for a change.

I don't begrudge anybody of hard earned and honestly gained wealth.

Sometimes people just need a hand up not a hand-out.

I'm thinking of the families of the victims today and it's so sad they won't be spending Christmas with their beautiful children. My heart goes out to them.

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Man are you both off the mark and factually wrong. Yes, the government stepped in to ensure EVERYONE including low income people could get into the housing market but the government NEVER required ANY bank to issue a loan to anyone who could not qualify under normal lending practices. It was the BANKS who chose to loan and market these loans aggressively to low income households they knew would default because the sub-prime market was based on the very premise of this group defaulting, that is how they made their money. If this group would have somehow been able to pay these insane mortgages the banks and brokerage firms would have lost BILLIONS! So no, it was not any "socialist" entity that caused this crisis, it was the uber greedy capitalist anti-regulation assholes who did.

So if these loans were such a bad idea, why would any fool in their right mind sign the papers for them? Did the bank hold a gun to their heads? Do we need more laws to protect dumbasses too?

This time I am purposely coming across harshly toward you because I am sick of such Goebbels style propaganda from you right wing tools. You and your kind are the problem, you and your kind caused this whole financial crisis, and you and your kind are selfish children who will not be satisfied until you have stolen all the toys and burned down the playground. Merry Christmas Uncle Scrooge!!!

Hey, I paid for all my toys with my own money. I paid off my house 15 years early too for that matter. Does that mean I foolishly accepted the propaganda?

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So if these loans were such a bad idea, why would any fool in their right mind sign the papers for them? Did the bank hold a gun to their heads? Do we need more laws to protect dumbasses too?

Hey, I paid for all my toys with my own money. I paid off my house 15 years early too for that matter. Does that mean I foolishly accepted the propaganda?

So, first you blame it on the "socialist liberals" and when I prove you are full of shit you come back and blame it on the poor people too greedy or too stupid to do the right thing. You are a real gem, and I truly hope you never need a hand from anyone or help in any way because with your attitude I don't think many will be flocking to your aid. Merry Christmas Mr. Humanitarian.

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So if these loans were such a bad idea, why would any fool in their right mind sign the papers for them? Did the bank hold a gun to their heads? Do we need more laws to protect dumbasses too?

Hey, I paid for all my toys with my own money. I paid off my house 15 years early too for that matter. Does that mean I foolishly accepted the propaganda?

4UiFU.gif

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So, first you blame it on the "socialist liberals" and when I prove you are full of shit you come back and blame it on the poor people too greedy or too stupid to do the right thing.

Not sure where I saw any "proof" from you about the cause. I still don't see how it would have happened if two things had occured: 1) people had not made a choice to take out loans they could not afford no matter what was being offered to them. 2) people had not purchaced homes which had very little room for appreciation in an already inflated real estate market, and then had buyers remorse and walked away when the market had a down turn cycle like it always does at some point.

People made really dumb choices and got burned.

You are a real gem, and I truly hope you never need a hand from anyone or help in any way because with your attitude I don't think many will be flocking to your aid. Merry Christmas Mr. Humanitarian.

I don't need help from anyone because I keep my shit squared away... Oorah!!!

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Not sure where I saw any "proof" from you about the cause. I still don't see how it would have happened if two things had occured: 1) people had not made a choice to take out loans they could not afford no matter what was being offered to them. 2) people had not purchaced homes which had very little room for appreciation in an already inflated real estate market, and then had buyers remorse and walked away when the market had a down turn cycle like it always does at some point.

People made really dumb choices and got burned.

I don't need help from anyone because I keep my shit squared away... Oorah!!!

Oh yeah, just like al those Enron employees who lost their life savings, they had their shit squared away too. The fact is, the truth is, no one has their shit squared away in such a turbulent world as we live in today. Even in your position it is very easy for a secure investment(s) to go south, and when they do, even the most "secure" can loose it all. Don't be so ready to throw stones, you may wind up in the glass house one day. Chance and whim can be a real ball breaker.

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Oh yeah, just like al those Enron employees who lost their life savings, they had their shit squared away too. The fact is, the truth is, no one has their shit squared away in such a turbulent world as we live in today. Even in your position it is very easy for a secure investment(s) to go south, and when they do, even the most "secure" can loose it all. Don't be so ready to throw stones, you may wind up in the glass house one day. Chance and whim can be a real ball breaker.

Nope, not me. I can always hunt and fish.

Besides, if it ever gets that bad then you will probably knocking on my door wanting me to protect you with my guns.

Oorah!!!

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Nope, not me. I can always hunt and fish.

Besides, if it ever gets that bad then you will probably knocking on my door wanting me to protect you with my guns.

Oorah!!!

Keep dreaming Nancy Boy, I can more than take care of myself. BTW, I have a sapper friend (military engineer) who jokes about all the moron survivalist and gun enthusiasts who feel they can take care of business if and when the shit comes down. He told me those are indeed the first people he will be going to, but for a very different reason. His skills will enable him to breach whatever defense such people have, liberate their stash, and be gone before they even know what happened. Though personally I am more of a community, helping my fellow human being type who would never do such a thing, there are many such as him that people such as you will be low hanging fruit, so to speak. Merry Christmas and don't forget to kiss your guns goodnight :lol:

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Keep dreaming Nancy Boy, I can more than take care of myself. BTW, I have a sapper friend (military engineer) who jokes about all the moron survivalist and gun enthusiasts who feel they can take care of business if and when the shit comes down. He told me those are indeed the first people he will be going to, but for a very different reason. His skills will enable him to breach whatever defense such people have, liberate their stash, and be gone before they even know what happened. Though personally I am more of a community, helping my fellow human being type who would never do such a thing, there are many such as him that people such as you will be low hanging fruit, so to speak. Merry Christmas and don't forget to kiss your guns goodnight :lol:

So then you will be relying on your sappy friend to protect you? Does this guy wear a cape too? LOL!

Oorah!!!

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So then you will be relying on your sappy friend to protect you? Does this guy wear a cape too? LOL!

Oorah!!!

I feel sorry for you as it appears from your needless posturing that you suffer from a lack of self esteem. I wish you well and hope one day you will realize you don't need a gun to make you feel like a man. I wish you well and truly hope you have Happy New Year.

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I feel sorry for you as it appears from your needless posturing that you suffer from a lack of self esteem. I wish you well and hope one day you will realize you don't need a gun to make you feel like a man. I wish you well and truly hope you have Happy New Year.

I need a gun to protect my home--- same as you. But thank you for the free psychoanalysis there professor. And if you have any cool recipes to share; feel free to go ahead and post those as well.

You are such a vast wealth of really great advice. Thank you so much!

Oorah!!!

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Sorry greenman, this is incorrect. I can only encourage you to refer to the links I have already provided or look into it further elsewhere. As a by the way, well-regulated militias do continue to exist, the National Guard being just one example.

Your reply seems rather contridictory, on one hand claiming that the 2nd mendement isnt taken out of context(dispite as I pointed out you clearly doing so within your post) and on the other looking to answer the idea that it is.

Not only do todays militias not exist in anything close to the form envisanged by the 2nd amendment but those currently pushing the second amendment heavly resist any control that would limate ownership of any kind of arms solely to memebers.

Whats risen up instead is the idea of gun ownership as some kind of "bulwark of democracey" agenst the established goverment, not only does that go unmentioned in the 2nd amendment but as I said I see a few obvious faults in it....

1.It would likely be totally ineffective agenst todays US army and police force.

2.It provides a very effective distraction to the populace of actual anti democratic tendanceys within washington, who cares if "corperations are people my friend" if you still have your Uzi to see off "the man"?

3.Even if #1 were not the case armed uprisings in a democratic state do not have a history of promoting democratic ideals, just the reverse.

Edited by greenman

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Just out of Curiosity, where do people keep their Guns at night?..

Mine is on my nightstand.

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I'm just curious, but if someone in the UK wants a shotgun/firearms licence and IF they are granted a certificate, they have to keep the weapon in a secure cabinet and the ammunition in another location. Is it the same in the USA? And whats a nightstand? Thanks

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Just out of Curiosity, where do people keep their Guns at night?..

Have one handgun in the top drawer of my nightstand along with a flashlight. I have a shotgun inside the grandfather clock in the front hallway. I have another handgun by my reclining chair in the den which is the same one I take with me in my car to work everyday. I also have a take down (breaks down into two parts) scoped rifle in my "go bag" in the garage along with my emergency supplies.

The rest of my guns are locked in the gun safe in the closet.

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