Mass Shooting at Elementary School Connecticut 12/14/12

[TypeO]

A common argument but there is one loophole: Guns make it spectacularly easy for one person to kill another.

They also make it "spectacularly easy" to equalize people.

260 lb. man set out to rape and possibly kill a 128 lb. woman?

Not if she's packing a 9mm in her purse or under her shirt.

As long as you remained fixed on the means rather than the intent, nothing will ever change.

It's people who are out to do others damage that is the problem.

All of these incidents get so much publicity.

What about the millions upon millions of Americans who own guns and... nothing?

Day in and day out the overwhelming majority of gun owners go about their daily lives without incident.

The amount of gun violence in proportion to actual gun ownership is infinitesimal.

Certainly not a reason to justify banning guns.

In a country of 300 million, how can you expect guns to be eliminated?

It isn't possible.

There would still be millions of guns in the country, except then the vast majority would be in the hands of criminals, as law-abiding citizens relinquished, however begrudgingly, their weapons.

Crime would skyrocket, as only criminals would have guns.

As the saying goes, when seconds count, the police are minutes away.

In 3 minutes a group of 2 or 3 men can kick your door in, shoot your entire family, or hack them up with machetes, or beat them to death with baseball bats.

And that 3 minutes would be meaningless if you were unable to make the call to 911.

Then there would be no rescue.

And believe me, 3 minutes is a very generous estimate of response time for police.

In all likelihood, it would exceed 3 minutes, and in large cities, forget about it.

Just like padlocks and chains only keep honest people out, so gun laws only limit law-abiding citizens.

And yes, more guns can for make a safer place.

Look at Switzerland and places like Kennesaw, Georgia, where the crime rate is well under half the national average, and there hasn't been a gun-related death since they enacted their controversial law of requiring gun ownership.

[LedZeppfan77]

I'm WELL aware of that. One mass shooting in the 16 years since. I'd say that makes it a success compared to the record in the US. FACT.

(And that's CumbRia)

And I'm just gonna add, the word "success" was tasteless there, I'm sure it wouldn't be considered that by the relatives and friends of those in Cumbria - it was a horrible day.

What is the comparison in population and break it down urban vs suburban and then come back to me with your stats

[TypeO]

There is a quote making the rounds on Facebook and other sites that is being attributed to Morgan Freeman, although I can't find anything to confirm it.

These things tend to make the rounds after incidents like this, so it's not certain he actually said it.

I do, however, concur wholeheartedly with the content of the statement, and I have felt this way ever since before the Columbine shooting.

"You want to know why? This may sound cynical, but here's why -

It's because of the way the media reports it.

Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities.

Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single victim of Columbine?

Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way.

Why a grade school?

Why children?

Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another.

Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening.

Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours.

Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity?

None that I've seen yet.

Because they don't sell.

So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim.

You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem."

Whether he said it or not, this makes an extremely valid point.

Losers who see no hope of ever achieving anything worthwhile look for ways to achieve another form of fame as they check out.

It can be observed in the writings of some who left notes or postings, expressing their confidence that they'll be remembered then (after their particular heinous act), or (I forget which mass murderer said it) that "society had their chance".

These people commit these vile, final acts absolutely confident in the chaos and pain they will leave the world in.

THIS is the root problem that needs to be addressed.

And, in the past few decades that have seen the rise of political correctness and participation awards, and a decline in identifying and reprimanding unacceptable behavior, that everyone is successful in their own way and other touchy-feely humanist bullshit, and that they are no winners and losers, because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, THIS is the end result, the reaping of what we've sown.

A generation of youth unsure of their own potential, no moral compass to guide them as they spend hours killing hookers and running over police officers and innocent bystanders in order to score more points on their XBox game, and a recognition of the uselessness of a ribbon for showing up, even though they only won 3 games.

Yeah, there have always been misfits, but they are ever-increasing and a lot more unpredictable than in the past.

And the only thing that's really changed from before until now is this infuriatingly mindless concept that we need to make everyone feel good about themselves, even if they aren't good.

Yeah, little Jared is abusive to cats and dogs, but he's been through a lot, his mommy and daddy got divorced.

Well I say FUCK THAT.

Little Jared is more than likely on his way to being a future active shooter incident, or serial killer.

And that's what I hate about this country.

Damn.

[justawoman]

^^^ Bravo!!! Thank you!!! Well said!

[planted]

Anyway I'm leaving this thread for now - Planted I realise that as a US citizen you are hurting right now. The world sends its sympathy to your country, truly. My country is no better than yours, I am no better than you.

I hope you as a country find a way to deal with this in the future that is better and safer for you all.

You're goddamned right we are hurting. It felt like you and a few others were rubbing salt in an open wound. And every time we hurt, we rise above and help each other. And I don't give two flying figs about other country's gun laws. It's apples to oranges...we are over 300 million strong with very weak border patrol. I am welll aware of the politics that accompany this issue, read my older post.

But, Knebby, I appreciate your kind words. Truly I do.

[Rock Historian]

#1fan, you're asking for a police state. Is that what you want? If you're putting them in schools, next they'll be at your malls and grocery stores.

Pal, they ALREADY ARE in Malls and grocery stores...Walmart too...it's been like that for years...where you been?

OMG, everybody run!!! It's 1984....

Lemme ask all of you knuckleheads a question who think that having a police presence is so horrible...

When there is a crime, a murder, etc-who do you call first? NO, not Ghostbusters...THE COPS, right? 911

I'm not buying into that paranoid notion that having cops in certain public and private places will lead to the government taking over your life...Dude, they don't need to rely on cops in malls, schools, etc. to eventually take over your life/privacy.......

Lets talk about what's at hand here...This isn't about FEAR of your government. It's about 26 people (20 kids, 6-7 years old) being killed for no reason, that possibly could have been prevented on some level if some kind of enforcement was there ahead of time.

Get that "Big Brother" notion out of your thought process. This is about a sick maniac kid with obvious mental issues with a gun who killed many kids and teachers.

Wouldn't you rather them (police) be there already, instead of after the fact? Either way they WILL be present whether it's during or after a crime. So pick which one you prefer. Personally, I'd much rather have officer friendly packing heat (which is part of his job), that could possibly deter a person from committing a violent act or saving a life, rather than to not have em' at all...so, what's the alternative? YOU having a weapon, everywhere you go?

[TypeO]

Pal, they already ARE in Malls and grocery stores...Walmart too...where you been?

Frankly, I wouldn't consider armed law enforcement at schools a police state by any stretch of the imagination.

[Rock Historian]

Frankly, I wouldn't consider armed law enforcement at schools a police state by any stretch of the imagination.

Finally, some sense has arrived.

[Ady]

On Saturday, police released a list of all the victims of Lanza.

Children

Charlotte Bacon, age 6.

Daniel Barden, 7.

Olivia Engel, 6.

Josephine Gay, 7.

Ana M Marquez-Greene, 6.

Dylan Hockley, 6.

Madeleine F Hsu, 6.

Catherine V Hubbard, 6.

Chase Kowalski , 7.

Jesse Lewis, 6.

James Mattioli, 6.

Grace McDonnell, 7.

Emilie Parker, 6.

Jack Pinto, 6.

Noah Pozner, 6.

Caroline Previdi, 6.

Jessica Rekos, 6.

Avielle Richman, 6.

Benjamin Wheeler, 6.

Allison N Wyatt, 6.

Adults

Rachel Davino, 29.

Dawn Hochsprung, 47.

Anne Marie Murphy, 52.

Lauren Rousseau, 30.

Mary Sherlach, 56.

Victoria Soto, 27.

R.I.P.

[Rock Historian]

Ady, hello!

That list makes me wanna throw - up. Unreal...Unthinkable. Absolutely terrible isn't it?

I wonder if some folks here that think having a Police presence in schools, etc. means "turning into a police state" and "the beginning of the end",(which is totally ridiculous, I might add) would be so against that if they had a child at this school on that day.....I bet they'd be eternally grateful if an officer saved or protected (their child or any other) from death.

[SuperDave]

I've gone through the first five pages of this, but want to read more. Too much here on gun control etc. Just remember, it's not the laws, but those beholders and how they behold them. In other words are these people who embrace or embellish (take advantage) of what the laws allow you to do in this country for better or worse.

I'm a resident of Connecticut so this horrific tragedy really hits me. It's not close by, but around 40 minutes or so drive for me. Still a lot of speculative info out there, so give a few more days to find out the truth. Reading between the lines and finding a common ground always helps. As Robert Plant once said, "In fact The Song Remains The Same." May be the way to go on this.

Will read the rest of this over the next few days. Everyone needs to be patient without jumping to conclusions until the evidence supports the truth as it's out there! Just may take a bit of time....but will be there, in due course!

[Ady]

Ady, hello!

That list makes me wanna throw - up. Unreal...Unthinkable. Absolutely terrible isn't it?

Yeah, the ages of those kids...

[LedZeppfan77]

Yeah, the ages of those kids...

How have you been Ady? I see you changed your avatar. I change mine every week I think. Hope all is well with you. Its a terrible thing this damn shooting. And with Xmas just around the block. Those families probably had gifts already wrapped for those poor children. I am interested to see what this bastard left in writing. The cops have given that away. He left things behind. And it sounds like notes and or letters. Shooting his parents is one thing. But innocent little children bought him a one way ticket to hell. I will pray for those that lost their lives and those that are left behind to live whatever kind of life they have left. It will take a long time to heal. I know that some say you never heal from this and I can speak from experience that you do heal to the point where you can move on. You never forget. You move on and your faith can be very helpfull in doing so

[shnflacwav]

I think its time to have armed gaurds in all the schools. And we should ban automatic guns, you dont use them to hunt, and a shot gun can defend a home just fine.

Things like this never bother me but when its kids, it does i feel so much for the familys what a horrable thing to have happen, my prayers go to them.

There was an armed guard at Columbine HS when the shootings occured there. Personally I do not think that is the answer. In this case, the mother owned the guns. If she was so worried about her son that she insisted his babysitter never leave the room while watching him, she should have secured the weapons better. Not to speak ill of the dead, but that's part of the problem - irresponsibility of the gun owners. I own 8 guns and there is no way my kids could get them if they wanted to.

Another issue is the fact the US has always sensationalized criminals going all the way back to the very beginning. We all know Benedict Arnold, we all know about Billy the Kid, Butch Cassidy, Jesse James, Bonnie and Clyde, John Dillinger, etc. Want to get famous - commit some serious crime and the whole world will know about you. It's a shame.

[LedZeppfan77]

There was an armed guard at Columbine HS when the shootings occured there. Personally I do not think that is the answer. In this case, the mother owned the guns. If she was so worried about her son that she insisted his babysitter never leave the room while watching him, she should have secured the weapons better. Not to speak ill of the dead, but that's part of the problem - irresponsibility of the gun owners. I own 8 guns and there is no way my kids could get them if they wanted to.

Another issue is the fact the US has always sensationalized criminals going all the way back to the very beginning. We all know Benedict Arnold, we all know about Billy the Kid, Butch Cassidy, Jesse James, Bonnie and Clyde, John Dillinger, etc. Want to get famous - commit some serious crime and the whole world will know about you. It's a shame.

True that guys like Jesse and Billy the kid and Dillinger and Capone were sensationalized. But they were not child killers. Big difference. i am a gun owner also. And its another blow to us. I doubt they would pay the cost of having an armed guard in every school and they dont want kids seeing guns in front of them walking into school every day. I dont know how long it took cops to arrive. With this world of cell phones it should not have taken long. But its hard to stop an incident like this. its like trying to predict where and when a bolt of lightning will strike. Its rare, and there are just too many places to cover.

[MollyHendrix]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

A common argument but there is one loophole: Guns make it spectacularly easy for one person to kill another.

Muscles, swords, clubs, kitchen knives, heck even scissors make it easy to spectacularly easy for one person to kill another. Maybe we should take those away to.

[fishhead]

Saw Mr. Parker speak about his daughter Emile tonight. What strength he had in talking about his beautiful daughter. So very sad.

[missytootsweet]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

A common argument but there is one loophole: Guns make it spectacularly easy for one person to kill another.

I agree. Guns make it too easy for people to slaughter the innocents in an instant.

Muscles, swords, clubs, kitchen knives, heck even scissors make it easy to spectacularly easy for one person to kill another. Maybe we should take those away to.

That's your counterpoint? I seriously doubt anyone could cause the carnage this gunman did in the course of what I'm hearing is 2-5 minutes with a damn pair of scissors or knives. Did you see the list of those kids? The ME said some were shot multiple times, as in "5 to 7."

This gunman used a .223 assault rifle of some kind. Now, I had to look that up not being a gun owner. Did you know you can get your basic military style AK47 or AR15 at gun shows or order it up right here on the internet? How screwed up is that? Who in this country except for those on active duty or Reserve military needs an AK47 or an AR15?"

Time to get some incentives out there to get these guns turned in and BAN the assault rifles.

My heart breaks for these families. As a parent, I cannot fathom losing one of my sons at any age, let alone 6 years old. Missy

Edited for spelling only.

[Old Shep]

According to news reports over here, the shooter's mother was a doomsday prepper, who owned several assault rifles. If true, this raises a number of points:

1. She was clearly as bat-shit insane as her son, and therefore probably allowed him access to her arsenal.

2. This info will not have been released by the cops, so it must have come from local residents. Her madness was therefore local knowledge, so the cops are sure to have known about it too. Now I have no idea how (or even whether) existing gun owners are policed or checked up on periodically over there, but it strikes me that a doomsday prepper (read nut-job) is not a fit person to own any gun, let alone one or more assault rifles. So why did nobody do anything about her? This comes back to what I said before about rights & responsibilities - if The People are to be allowed to have the right to own guns, they and the authorities have the responsibility to police that ownership, and not just turn a blind eye to comical, ostensibly harmless wack-jobs, which seems to be what happened here. And if the policing fails, the right must be withdrawn.

3. Seems like in the USA, there are a lot of crazy people who will use any perceived threat - real, disingenuously fabricated, imaginary or just plain delusional - to justify owning more weapons than could ever possibly be required to defend themselves in any plausible attack scenario. Here, it was 'doomsday', but it applies equally to all the paranoid conspiracy theorists & militia weirdos who think their own govt is out to get them, plus all the idiots who bang on and on about unprotected borders etc...yeah right, like Canada or Mexico's really gonna invade the USA.

89 guns per 100 people, when (at a conservative guess) maybe 5% of those people are clinically insane? That's seriously fucked up.

[scythe]

Hi Rock Historian. Hm, I'm not quite sure what spun you into a tizzy? And I'm not sure why you chose my post to spin this into an anti-police state debate... Lemme guess, you're a cop, right? haha! But that's fine, I got time, let's do this.

I think you missed my first post, so here it is again for you, buddy.

The matter of gun control in the United States is likely never to be solved. The most important factor to consider here is the civilian's right to protect themselves against tyranny. There is a fear amongst Americans if the US government took their weapons away, they'd be completely defenseless against them. We are people of rebellion as you all know. And on the other side, Americans also have a fear that their government would not be able to sufficiently defend their citizens in a time of war.

<--------- This was in response to the conversation on gun control. If you disagree with this paragraph, you need to re-read your Constitution and possibly brush up on American history, Historian.

Having said that, I don't agree that every Tom, Dick and Harry has the right to own one or an arsenal of weapons. In fact, there are laws in several states that ask for a full history of the mental stability of an applicant when applying for gun permits. But the rules are seldom followed and there are many places to buy weapons without proper identification, you only need cold hard cash. And a lot of these guns are being redistributed by the police departments.

<--------The bold area is the part where I acknowledge mental illness.

But the problem here isn't exactly gun control, is it? This is the new society of America that we've carved out for our children where anything goes, apparently.

Let's examine...Is murder uncommon in American culture or pop-culture? <------ This doesn't need explanation, does it?

Pal, they ALREADY ARE in Malls and grocery stores...Walmart too...it's been like that for years...where you been?

OMG, everybody run!!! It's 1984....

Armed Guards at grocery stores? Where do you live, Israel? Haha, Walmart! You're talking about the squirty little car with a blinking light on it, right...? You know they don't carry a firearm, right? Well maybe they do...in Israel! Yea! Checkpoints at the mall! That's what everybody wants.

Lemme ask all of you knuckleheads a question who think that having a police presence is so horrible...

When there is a crime, a murder, etc-who do you call first? NO, not Ghostbusters...THE COPS, right? 911

Remember our recent exposure to Martial Law: Hurricane Katrina? Ha, yea, that went smoothly...everyone played by the rules!

Well, I don't pump my gas at Taco Bell nor do I buy my deli meat at a lumber yard. DUH, who the hell else would you plan to call? That's their job. That's what your tax-dollars go towards. "To protect and Serve". And there are places in the US where calling 911 or the police isn't going to help save your life, or solve a crime. Especially if you're black. That is a FACT and it should not be forgotten.

I'm not buying into that paranoid notion that having cops in certain public and private places will lead to the government taking over your life...Dude, they don't need to rely on cops in malls, schools, etc. to eventually take over your life/privacy.......

There is no call for paranoia. But its a legitmate concern. It's called Checks and Balances. Also, police are public servants. They are a part of local government paid for with your tax dollars. Government.

Lets talk about what's at hand here...This isn't about FEAR of your government. It's about 26 people (20 kids, 6-7 years old) being killed for no reason, that possibly could have been prevented on some level if some kind of enforcement was there ahead of time.

For the record, Historian, I never said this was an issue of fearing the government. (Again, refer back to my original post on the general matter of gun control.) Possibility leaning towards unlikely. The police are not psychic. They cannot foresee the unforeseeable. I'll quote shnflacwav here.

There was an armed guard at Columbine HS when the shootings occured there.

Thank you shnflacwav.

Get that "Big Brother" notion out of your thought process. This is about a sick maniac kid with obvious mental issues with a gun who killed many kids and teachers.

Whoa, take it easy brother. First, who the hell do you think you are to tell me what should or should not be in my thought processes, and secondly, where the hell are you getting "big brother notion" from? One sentence...ONE sentence, I say, and you've attacked me and twisted it into a rally for the police. WTF?

Wouldn't you rather them (police) be there already, instead of after the fact? Either way they WILL be present whether it's during or after a crime. So pick which one you prefer. Personally, I'd much rather have officer friendly packing heat (which is part of his job), that could possibly deter a person from committing a violent act or saving a life, rather than to not have em' at all...so, what's the alternative? YOU having a weapon, everywhere you go?

This is a very popular quote, you may have heard it before.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ..." - Benjamin Franklin

[scythe]

Depending upon your district the schools are already run like a prison; some already have armed guards and metal detectors in place. Additionally, the lockers have been removed and only see-through backpacks are authorized.

Absolute truth. Thank you SteveAJones

[Knebby]

What I'm finding really hard to get my head around is the "from my cold dead hands" mentality, that completely stubborn refusal to even consider LOOKING at what can be changed. Quite honestly if I was a gun - owner or part of the pro-gun lobby ( I recognise they can co-exist) my first thoughts after this tragedy would have been "What do we have to change to try to stop this from happening? What am I prepared to compromise?" - not "They're not gonna use this as an excuse to trample on MY rights!!!" . The priorities just seem completely and utterly wrong.

[TheLastSpartan]

More strict gun laws and taking mental illness and it's treatment more serious is the answer.

[Knebby]

I've taken that phrase to mean there will be no compromise on the fundamental principle that gun ownership is a constitutional right.

Even so, there have been hundreds of gun control measures enacted already, and a link to significant legislation is included below.

http://www.infopleas...t/guntime1.html

Well I was more refering to the instant reactions of so many saying gun control would not help - when it clearly does. But I suppose your interpretation is not far off. Interesting link thanks Steve.

[scythe]

So why did nobody do anything about her? This comes back to what I said before about rights & responsibilities - if The People care to be allowed to have the right to own guns, they and the authorities have the responsibility to police that ownership, and not just turn a blind eye to comical, ostensibly harmless wack-jobs, which seems to be what happened here. And if the policing fails, the right must be withdrawn.

According to a recent poll, 2/3 of Americans believe it is the end times. Maybe nobody did anything about her because it's general consensus? And I think it's safe to say most Americans don't see a problem with owning an arsenal. Again, there have been 'small' measures taken in attempt to police gun ownership but often money speaks louder than common sense. Also, you can't just "withdraw" a constitutional right, it doesn't work like that. The law remains there for a reason. Surely, the original purpose of the right to bear arms is not currently relevant, but ultimately it is there to ensure the citizens of this country that IF and WHEN, they will not be defenseless against tyranny. This is a country "for and by the people". If the policing fails, the government must be held accountable by it's people, and that is what all this really boils down to. The responsibility of the people to be a constant thorn in it's government's side to ensure that they are governing on behalf of the will of it's people.

Seems like in the USA, there are a lot of crazy people who will use any perceived threat - real, disingenuously fabricated, imaginary or just plain delusional - to justify owning more weapons than could ever possibly be required to defend themselves in any plausible attack scenario. Here, it was 'doomsday', but it applies equally to all the paranoid conspiracy theorists & militia weirdos who think their own govt is out to get them, plus all the idiots who bang on and on about unprotected borders etc...yeah right, like Canada or Mexico's really gonna invade the USA.

Absolutely, Old Shep, absolutely.