Led Zeppelin Song-Writing Credits

[kingzoso]

Jimmy Page and Robert Plant are the two principle song-writers on, at least, 75% of Led Zeppelin's official catalog. That is well-known.

I realize all of Led Zeppelin's Music was created and produced from 1968 - 1979. However, sometimes I feel that all of Led Zeppelin song-writing credits should have been a attributted to Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham (with the exception of the songs that Jimmy brought to the band prior to the formation of Led Zeppelin).

When I listen to any song from Led Zeppelin, I hear the Music and Contribution from all 4 of them. Not just Jimmy and Robert. John Paul Jones and John Bonham, to me, were just as essential to Led Zeppelin as Jimmy and Robert.

As far as I know, the main song-writers are given more "royalties" then the rest of the equation. To me, that "equation" was Jimmy Page/Robert Plant/John Paul Jones and the Mighty John Bonham.

[ToxxicaL]

John Paul Jones actually have a very interesting quote on this subject from an interview.

On the band's last album, "In Through The Out Door," you received more songwriting credit than on any previous album. Why was that?

JPJ: I was always involved with that stuff on all the albums, but I got more credits on that album because Page was less involved with it. Basically, I was at rehearsals earlier and Robert and I more or less wrote that album together.

In all honesty, I'd say that I probably should have paid much more attention to the writing credits in the earlier days of Zeppelin. In those days, I'd just say, "Well, I wrote that, but it's part of the arrangement," or something like that, and I'd just let it go. Not realizing at the time that that part of the arrangement had more to do with the writing than just arranging something. I always thought that John Bonham's contribution was always much more than he ever received credit for as well. In fact, I know it was.

Zeppelin was really a partnership between four people, and sometimes when you see songs with "Page-Plant" on everything, it makes it seem like it was a "Lennon-McCartney" situation where they wrote everything and John and I just kind of learned the songs that Jimmy and Robert taught to us [laughs]. That's so far from the truth, it's ridiculous.

[Amstel]

John Paul Jones actually have a very interesting quote on this subject from an interview.

How true!

[KellyGirl]

Old thread but caught my eye

I don't know what exactly qualifies to get your name in the writing credits besides the obvious stuff,
however I believe what Jones and Bonham contributed should've had their names on more songs.
Not every song, but more than what's on there now.

I too laughed at Jones' comment about it coming off like ONLY Jimmy and Plant wrote the music. As if
he and Bonzo just stood there picking their asses waiting to be taught it. Haha!  Anybody with common
sense could clearly see that wasn't the case. It'd be so easy for Jones to press on this, but he's seems
rather meh whatever about it.

And aside from the writing - Jonesy's always been given a bit of a slant. Not on purpose I believe. Media
certainly didn't help. Look at all the onstage pics and video. They're extremely heavy with Jimmy and Plant. 
A lot of the stuff you come across on Youtube always has someone in the comments asking why Jones is barely
shown.  An exact comment I read from a disgruntled Jonesy fan:  "J P J could be tearing it up on the keys or bass,
yet dude with the camera is stuck on showing us Page standing there sweatin'  with a Marlboro hanging out of his 
mouth and Plant's not even singing yet we're supposed to be interested in his crotch region."   Hahaha

The O2 gig was more evenly done when it came to equal focus on the members. It wasn't just nonstop going
back and forth like it was 'The Jimmy Page/ Robert Plant Band ...oh and Friends'  It was nice for people to see how
much Jones was indeed part of Led Zeppelin's music.

[rm2551]

10 hours ago, KellyGirl said:

Look at all the onstage pics and video. They're extremely heavy with Jimmy and Plant. 
 

There is a blistering bass run in WLL on TSRTS during the "Maaan I'm trippin!" section - and some other runs on that album that I could have killed the video director for NOT showing a single shot of JPJ. It kills me.

[Brigante]

Is it right that 'songwriting' credit consists of music, melody and lyrics - with the 'music' just being the initial riff/tune/chord sequence, not everything else (intros, outros, solos, bass and drum parts, etc) that most people would consider to be part of the 'music'?

One of the most blatant examples of how you can make massive contributions to a song and not get in the writing credits is Mick Ronson's contributions to Bowie's songs. Bowie was once asked straight out what Mick's contributions were and he replied 'Listen to the difference between the demo of Ziggy and the finished version'. As the demo is just Bowie on 12-string guitar, that suggests that Ronno came up with the rest. But because Mick hadn't  written  the initial riff, the melody or the lyrics, he got an 'arranged by' credit, not a songwriting credit. This hardly seems fair, when you look at just how much Ronson put into Bowie's music and Tony Visconti often claimed that he and Ronson actually co-wrote the songs on The Man Who Sold The World - but he still meant that what they'd done was to 'arrange' Bowie's basic acoustic demos into the final versions of the songs. For his part, Ronson didn't think what they'd done was 'writing' and said quite clearly that 'they were David's songs'. So, I dunno. Mind you, Jimmy actually wrote the riff that Bowie used for The Supermen on TMWSTW and he didn't get credited either!  

I imagine Bonzo and Jonesy contributed a hell of a lot that wasn't technically the initial tune, the melody or the lyrics and that's why they didn't get writing credits. Mind you, that can't be true in every case, because  Jimmy once said that the reason Bonzo got credited for Kashmir was because it was the drum part that really shaped the song at the writing stage! Tricky one this, eh!   

     

[NealR2000]

Song writing credits have always been the cause for many a band fight and break-up.  I've read that Page did make sure he got as much of the credits as he could, and was cheap with letting anyone else have them unless they really made a big contribution.  It's a money thing, so why should this be surprising.  He was sure to also be the Producer on all albums, including ITTOD.  I think Jones should have got a lot more, but I'm sure it was due to Page's cheapness and Jones' easy manner.

[sk8rat]

I believe the music business was just different back then. if you think about it most bands were considered three piece bands, they didn't really consider the vocalist a part of the "band". jimmy page touched on that in interviews saying how they weren't a three piece band.

some things I have always though could have possibly attributed to all their writing credit problems is that for one, page was very young and sort of winging it when it came to leading a band and as a session musician I dont think it was very often, if at all, that he got writing credit for his contributions even though he was given a lot of creative freedom a lot of the time.

I think above all else the reason why jimmy page and robert plant got the bulk of the credit within the band is because as the leader of the band jimmy page really had the final say as to whether or not they would do the instrumentals a certain way or not and since he never had much confidence in his own lyric writing ability he probably though it would be best to give robert plant freedom to write as he wished.

[babysquid]

On 25 February 2016 at 2:38 PM, Brigante said:

Is it right that 'songwriting' credit consists of music, melody and lyrics - with the 'music' just being the initial riff/tune/chord sequence, not everything else (intros, outros, solos, bass and drum parts, etc) that most people would consider to be part of the 'music'?

One of the most blatant examples of how you can make massive contributions to a song and not get in the writing credits is Mick Ronson's contributions to Bowie's songs. Bowie was once asked straight out what Mick's contributions were and he replied 'Listen to the difference between the demo of Ziggy and the finished version'. As the demo is just Bowie on 12-string guitar, that suggests that Ronno came up with the rest. But because Mick hadn't  written  the initial riff, the melody or the lyrics, he got an 'arranged by' credit, not a songwriting credit. This hardly seems fair, when you look at just how much Ronson put into Bowie's music and Tony Visconti often claimed that he and Ronson actually co-wrote the songs on The Man Who Sold The World - but he still meant that what they'd done was to 'arrange' Bowie's basic acoustic demos into the final versions of the songs. For his part, Ronson didn't think what they'd done was 'writing' and said quite clearly that 'they were David's songs'. So, I dunno. Mind you, Jimmy actually wrote the riff that Bowie used for The Supermen on TMWSTW and he didn't get credited either!  

I imagine Bonzo and Jonesy contributed a hell of a lot that wasn't technically the initial tune, the melody or the lyrics and that's why they didn't get writing credits. Mind you, that can't be true in every case, because  Jimmy once said that the reason Bonzo got credited for Kashmir was because it was the drum part that really shaped the song at the writing stage! Tricky one this, eh!   

     

Firstly the example you use is a perfect example of arrangement over songwriting. David's original demo has the melody, lyrics and even the intro riff. If this was played around a campfire it would be immediately recognizable as Ziggy Stardust. What Mick Ronson has contributed is arrangement. He has decorated the initial idea with parts which while enhance do not detract from the original melody or harmonic structure. If you strip them all away the song is still there.

All you need to provide for sole credit on a song is lyrics and melody. Even an intro riff can be classed as arrangement. Of course not everybody credits this way which can lead to much confusion and as has been mentioned a great deal of interband animosity. Some bands try to avoid this by giving the full band credit on everything regardless of their contribution, but this can have its own pitfalls. Some bands and musicians are very protective of their "songwriting" credits to the point that they'll actually buy other songwriters out so that they can be credited solely as composing their music.

Regarding Bonzo and Kashmir I seem to recall that he actually came up with the riff by singing it while he played his drums.

And finally from my own experience as a songwriter it was very rare occasion when none of the other members of the band had something to contribute regarding the arrangements. In fact if they had nothing to say it made me doubt the quality of the song. On the other hand I spent many hours in the studio arranging a backing track around a basic idea our bassist had brought in. It became a pet project for me and I took the tune under my wing so to speak.  In the end the singer wrote some lyrics for it and the song which would have most likely been forgotten if it wasn't for me was completed and credited to her and the bassist. Was I miffed at this? No I understood, at the end of the day it was his chords and her melody and words. 

 

[babysquid]

Ask yourself would it have been right for Joe Cocker to add his name to the credits of "With a Little Help From My Friends" when he performed his quite radical rearrangement ?

[Mithril46]

I think a very black and white version of all of this is see how different Page and Plant sounded without Bonzo or Jonesy

in the rhythm section in their post-Zep projects. Not just a question of wanting to sound different, Bonzo's and Jonesy's

abscence from these projects showed the huge songwriting influence they had on Zep, credited or not.

[babysquid]

4 hours ago, Mithril46 said:

I think a very black and white version of all of this is see how different Page and Plant sounded without Bonzo or Jonesy

in the rhythm section in their post-Zep projects. Not just a question of wanting to sound different, Bonzo's and Jonesy's

abscence from these projects showed the huge songwriting influence they had on Zep, credited or not.

Again this is arrangement not songwriting

[Canadianzepper]

Well, first after years of lurking I decided to finally make an account.  I, like man of you I'm sure; are the "biggest Led Zeppelin fan in the world".

 

This question has always confused me, especially when determining such issues.  I have always felt it odd that Kashmir didn't include JPJ as a writer even though I have read Page state that JPJ was a major arranger.  Arranging and writing might be different, but I can't see how someone cannot receive credit for arranging such a unique and groundbreaking song unless they were exclusively in the production studio.  There are a few other songs also which I hear JPJ playing prominently in during live performances but he does not have writing contributions:  The Rain Song comes to mind.

I do recall reading that Plant didn't get alot of writing credit for the first album because he was still under contract elsewhere.  He has also stated he didn't even believe he would be with the band after the first album.  Of course, Page wrote most of the lyrics, but it's criminal to suggest he wasn't a major component of the first album.  Again, semantics about what constitutes "writing".  Page didn't write any of the delivery or nuances of Plants singing, the first album which introduced the world to a very different brand of singing the blues.

Ultimately,  as was noted above, Page generally would have controlled these issues, and he really was the impetus of the creativity, but the end result would have been vastly different and surely less memorable if with another band.  This suggests JPJ would have been given the short end of the stick often.  Also, Page was the producer, the band was always his to guide and mold.  Even if another member contributed something different during rehersals or a particular take, Page would have the final say on what would be included. and what wouldn't once he was working with the engineer.

 

 

[Mithril46]

Well final say but Jimmy rubbed shoulders with producers who not infrequently had their own vision of things and may

have made rather strong suggestions. Few if any of the big name producers just acted like robots exactly following

Page's lead.

And I do find it somewhat galling that JPJ and Bonzo didn't get far more credit. Arrangement can be just as important

as writing: Witness "All Along THe Watchtower". Dylan came up with it, But Jimi's version made it a total classic.

Why do fans think Page had so much trouble forming a good band after Zep ?? The band optimized Page's abilities,

and Jimmy is still great but not quite the super genius as it turns out.

[babysquid]

1 hour ago, Mithril46 said:

 

And I do find it somewhat galling that JPJ and Bonzo didn't get far more credit. Arrangement can be just as important

as writing: Witness "All Along THe Watchtower". Dylan came up with it, But Jimi's version made it a total classic.

This is true and Dylan did apparently take up Jimi's arrangement afterwards. However this thread is about songwriting credits and All Along the Watchtower is still credited to Bob Dylan not Dylan / Hendrix.

[the-ocean87]

I agree with some users that Bonzo should have gotten more credits. "Fool in the rain" for example will always be remembered because of its drum groove, the famous Purdie shuffle.

 

The same goes for JPJ. His basslines are often very unique and are an intergral part of their songs. "What is and what should never be" is one of these tracks with a very important bass. Yet he has no credit for this song.

 

I think it was/ is common practice in the music business that you only get credtis for the voice line and for the chord structure. Not long ago I read an interview with world famous studio guitarist Brent Mason (check him out, he is the best ever) who played on thousands of records and is most famous for his playing on all Alan Jackson records. He said you don't even get a credit when you write an important guitar riff.

[Mithril46]

The one thing I'm not all that convinced about is Jimmy being some sort of overlord in Zep, dictating many parts and 

constantly correcting other people's playing to fit his vision. Sometimes, maybe. IMO Zep had 4 about equally hugely

talented musicians, and from all the books I have read, alot of the time things just fell into place without much fighting

or drama. I also say this because Jimmy in his post-Zep career had a hard time because his personality was not all

that assertive and that's the two Firm albums, among other things. As mentioned by others, Page was certainly over-

credited in Zep. But Jimmy was plenty assertive as far as money.

[babysquid]

On 28 October 2016 at 10:29 AM, the-ocean87 said:

I agree with some users that Bonzo should have gotten more credits. "Fool in the rain" for example will always be remembered because of its drum groove, the famous Purdie shuffle.

 

The same goes for JPJ. His basslines are often very unique and are an intergral part of their songs. "What is and what should never be" is one of these tracks with a very important bass. Yet he has no credit for this song.

 

I think it was/ is common practice in the music business that you only get credtis for the voice line and for the chord structure. Not long ago I read an interview with world famous studio guitarist Brent Mason (check him out, he is the best ever) who played on thousands of records and is most famous for his playing on all Alan Jackson records. He said you don't even get a credit when you write an important guitar riff.

To write a song you need melody and lyrics or just melody in the case of an instrumental. The rest is arrangement. You get paid for the bit the milkman whistles