Baseball discussion thread

[TRB]

Supposedly Clemens and Pettitte are in the report...just over 40 minutes until the thing hits.

[dig zoso]

Watching the address right now...lots of rhetoric is all that's been said so far

BUT...the report has been posted on mlb.com!

[solar]

Have dowloaded there report and quickly glanced through the names. There's a ton. Pics of checks to Radomski and the other trainer. This is massive, 409 pages. It will take some time for me to sort through it.

[solar]

Straight from the report, in case anyone questions Mitchell's affiliation with the Red Sox:

"In the course of this investigation, we interviewed 23 individuals who are, or had been, affiliated with the Red Sox organization including 6 persons who were with the Red Sox at the time of the reported events."

[solar]

On the Paul Byrd situation:

Paul Byrd

On October 21, 2007, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that Cleveland

Indians pitcher Paul Byrd had bought nearly $25,000 worth of human growth hormone and

syringes from the Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center, one of the anti-aging clinics implicated in the Signature Pharmacy investigation, in thirteen transactions between August 2002 and January 2005. ... In public comments in response to the article, Byrd admitted that he had been taking human growth hormone but said that he had been using it to treat a tumor on his pituitarygland. Byrd reportedly said that he had never taken “any hormone or drug that was not prescribed” to him by a doctor. .... Neither I nor any member of my investigative staff had any prior knowledge of

any allegation about Byrd.

[59LesPaul]

ESPN

Baseball slow to react to players' steroids use

Updated: December 13, 2007, 2:57 PM ET

NEW YORK -- George Mitchell's 20-month report into steroid use in professional baseball blamed both players and management for the problem.

Mitchell addressed the media and released his report Thursday. Among the former senator's conclusions he gave in what he termed a "detailed statement":

• "For more than a decade there has been widespread anabolic steroid use" in baseball, he said.

• "Everyone involved in baseball over the past two decades -- commissioners, club officials, the players' association and players - shares to some extent the responsibility for the steroids era,'' Mitchell said. "There was a collective failure to recognize the problem as it emerged and to deal with it early on."

• Mitchell and his staff interviewed former New York Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski four times. Radomski identified a number of former and current MLB players he said he sold steroid and human growth hormone to. Checks and money orders, mailing receipts or shipments, and statements of other witnesses were used to back up Radomski's allegations. Much of this was found in Radomski's seized telephone records.

• Brian McNamee, a former New York Yankees trainer who worked with pitchers Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte, was interviewed three times by Mitchell, with a personal lawyer and federal law enforcement officials in the room.

• Clemens was singled out in eight pages, with much of the information on the seven-time Cy Young Award winner coming from McNamee.

On page 169 of the report, it says: "According to McNamee, from the time that McNamee injected Clemens with Winstrol through the end of the 1998 season, Clemens' performance showed remarkable improvement,'' the report said. "During this period of improved performance, Clemens told McNamee that the steroids 'had a pretty good effect' on him.''

McNamee also told investigators that "during the middle of the 2000 season, Clemens made it clear that he was ready to use steroids again. During the latter part of the regular season, McNamee injected Clemens in the buttocks four to six times with testosterone from a bottle labeled either Sustanon 250 or Deca-Durabolin."

• The report says Pettitte, from April 21 to June 14, 2002 when he was on the disabled list with elbow tendonitis, he "wanted to speed his recovery and help his team." The report says "McNamee traveled to Tampa at Pettitte's request and spent about 10 days assisting Pettitte with his rehabilitation. McNamee recalled that he injected Pettitte with human growth hormone that McNamee obtained from Radomski on two to four occasions. Pettitte paid McNamee for the trip and his expenses; there was no separate payment for the human growth hormone."

It continued: "According to McNamee, around the time in 2003 that the BALCO searches became public, Pettitte asked what he should say if a reporter asked Pettitte whether he ever used performance enhancing substances. McNamee told him he was free to say what he wanted, but that he should not go out of his way to bring it up. McNamee also asked Pettitte not to mention his name. McNamee never discussed these substances with Pettitte again.

"After the 2001 season, Pettitte, like Clemens, continued to use McNamee's services and to serve as a source of income after McNamee was dismissed by the Yankees. In a 2006 article, Pettitte 'acknowledged an ongoing relationship' with McNamee. Pettitte was quoted as having said that he still talked to McNamee about once a week. ' "

"After we read the report, we will have something to say," said Randy Hendricks, the agent for Clemens and Pettitte.

• Several former MLB players and strength and conditioning coaches were also interviewed.

• Each player named was invited to meet with Mitchell if their name came up in his investigation. Mitchell said almost all current players refused to meet with him.

• Response to the problem from both baseball and its players was slow to develop and was initially ineffective.

• There is evidence the problem wasn't isolated to one club. Many players were involved. Each club has had a player involved.

• Mitchell's investigation found that some players were given a heads-up to drug tests.

•In his report, Mitchell wrote he was against commissioner Bud Selig disciplining players -- those named in the report or not -- for past violations of baseball's rules against using performance-enhancing substances "except in those cases where he determines that the conduct is so serious that discipline is necessary to maintain the integrity of the game. I make this recommendation fully aware that there are valid arguments both for and against it."

George Mitchell

• Age: 74

• Former US Senator (D-Maine), May 1980-Jan. 1995

• Chairman, Walt Disney Company, March 2004-Dec. 2006

• Currently Chairman of the Global Board, DLA Piper (law firm)

• Chaired negotiations for Belfast Peace Agreement in Northern Ireland (1998)

• Director, Boston Red Sox

• Head of investigation into past steroid use by MLB players

• Mitchell's conclusions:

• There has been a great deal of speculation about this report. Much of it has focused on players' names, how many and which ones. After considering that issue very carefully I concluded that it is appropriate and necessary to include them in this report. Otherwise I would not have done what I was asked to do: to try to find out what happened and to report what I learned accurately, fairly, and thoroughly. While the interest in names is understandable, I hope the media and the public will keep that part of the report in context and will look beyond the individuals to the central conclusions and recommendations of this report. In closing, I want to emphasize them:
  
  • 1. The use of steroids in Major League Baseball was widespread. The response by baseball was slow to develop and was initially ineffective. For many years, citing concerns for the privacy rights of the players, the Players Association opposed mandatory random drug testing of its members for steroids and other substances. But in 2002, the effort gained momentum after the clubs and the Players Association agreed to and adopted a mandatory random drug testing program. The current program has been effective in that detectable steroid use appears to have declined. However, that does not mean that players have stopped using performance enhancing substances. Many players have shifted to human growth hormone, which is not detectable in any currently available urine test.
  
  
  • 2. The minority of players who used such substances were wrong. They violated federal law and baseball policy, and they distorted the fairness of competition by trying to gain an unfair advantage over the majority of players who followed the law and the rules. They the players who follow the law and the rules are faced with the painful choice of either being placed at a competitive disadvantage or becoming illegal users themselves. No one should have to make that choice.
  
  • 3. Obviously, the players who illegally used performance enhancing substances are responsible for their actions. But they did not act in a vacuum. Everyone involved in baseball over the past two decades Commissioners, club officials, the Players Association, and players shares to some extent in the responsibility for the steroids era. There was a collective failure to recognize the problem as it emerged and to deal with it early on. As a result, an environment developed in which illegal use became widespread.
  
  • 4. Knowledge and understanding of the past are essential if the problem is to be dealt with effectively in the future. But being chained to the past is not helpful. Baseball does not need and cannot afford to engage in a never-ending search for the name of every player who ever used performance enhancing substances. The Commissioner was right to ask for this investigation and report. It would have been impossible to get closure on this issue without it, or something like it.
  
  • 5. But it is now time to look to the future, to get on with the important and difficult task that lies ahead. Everyone involved in Major League Baseball should join in a wellplanned, well-executed, and sustained effort to bring the era of steroids and human growth hormone to an end and to prevent its recurrence in some other form in the future. That is the only way this cloud will be removed from the game. The adoption of the recommendations set forth in this report will be a first step in that direction.
  

Also:

• On page 121 of the report, under a heading "players requested to be interviewed," Jason Giambi is the only player in the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative probe who participated in Mitchell's investigation. This portion of the report read:

"Concerning BALCO and Major League Baseball I requested interviews of all the major league players who had been publicly implicated in the BALCO case: Marvin Benard; Barry Bonds; Bobby Estalella; Jason Giambi; Jeremy Giambi; Armando Rios; Benito Santiago; Gary Sheffield; and Randy Velarde. Jason Giambi agreed to be interviewed, and Randy Velarde provided information through his attorney. All the other players implicated in the BALCO case refused my requests to be interviewed or did not respond to them. Gary Sheffield initially declined my request for an interview. Sheffield later said that he would agree to an interview, subject to the availability of his lawyer who was undergoing medical treatments."

Clemens, Miguel Tejada and Pettitte were named in the report, an All-Star roster linked to steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs that put a question mark -- if not an asterisk -- next to some of baseball's biggest moments.

Eric Gagne, Troy Glaus, Gary Matthews Jr., Brian Roberts, Paul Lo Duca, Rick Ankiel and Jay Gibbons were among other current players named in the report. Some were linked to Human Growth Hormone, others to steroids. Also mentioned in the report is Miguel Tejada, who was dealt from Baltimore to Houston Wednesday.

"We identify some of the players who were caught up in this drive to gain a competitive advantage,'' the report said. "Other investigations will no doubt turn up more names and fill in more details, but that is unlikely to significantly alter the description of baseball's 'steroids era' as set forth in this report.''

Mitchell released his report at a news conference in New York City. Selig will hold his own news conference at 4:30 p.m. ET.

Barry Bonds, already under indictment on charges of lying to a federal grand jury about steroids, also showed up in baseball's most infamous lineup since the Black Sox scandal.

It was uncertain whether the report would result in any penalties or suspensions.

Several stars named in the report could pay the price in Cooperstown, much the way Mark McGwire was kept out of the Hall of Fame this year merely because of steroids suspicion.

"Former commissioner Fay Vincent told me that the problem of performance-enhancing substances may be the most serious challenge that baseball has faced since the 1919 Black Sox scandal,'' Mitchell said in the 409-page report.

"The illegal use of anabolic steroids and similar substances, in Vincent's view, is 'cheating of the worst sort.' He believes that it is imperative for Major League Baseball to 'capture the moral high ground' on the issue and, by words and deeds, make it clear that baseball will not tolerate the use of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs."

Information from The Associated Press is included in this report

[bigstickbonzo]

Maris and Aaron are still the record holders in my book.

[solar]

Interesting thought:

Mark McGwire is NOT mentioned in the Mitchell Report.

[Toronto Zeppelin]

Lots of players I saw, none of them are really surprising. I did see in one report that Albert Pujols' name was in, but I'm not 100% sure how reliable it was. If he got steroids, that would be very dissapointing...

Jays signed SS David Eckstein today...1 Year/$4.5 million. Not bad, gives us a really good backup in Johnny McDonald.

[solar]

Lots of players I saw, none of them are really surprising. I did see in one report that Albert Pujols' name was in, but I'm not 100% sure how reliable it was. If he got steroids, that would be very dissapointing...

Jays signed SS David Eckstein today...1 Year/$4.5 million. Not bad, gives us a really good backup in Johnny McDonald.

Odds are they move Eck to 2b, Miles to 3B and keep McDonald at SS (he's a hell of a defensive SS). Eckstein is much more suited for 2B, because he has to take this massive, pathetic crow hop to get the ball from SS to 1B when he throws.

[Toronto Zeppelin]

Odds are they move Eck to 2b, Miles to 3B and keep McDonald at SS (he's a hell of a defensive SS). Eckstein is much more suited for 2B, because he has to take this massive, pathetic crow hop to get the ball from SS to 1B when he throws.

Haha, Miles is still on the Cards. Our IF right now is Lyle Overbay, Aaron Hill, David Eckstein, and Troy Glaus (although he may be suspended). John McDonald and Marco Scutaro are on the bench.

[solar]

Haha, Miles is still on the Cards. Our IF right now is Lyle Overbay, Aaron Hill, David Eckstein, and Troy Glaus (although he may be suspended). John McDonald and Marco Scutaro are on the bench.

My bad, I meant Aaron Hill to third base. I'll get him and Miles mixed up until they quit and then some Glaus, I don't see how he comes back after this. Wasn't he gimpy as hell at the end of the year without the juice/HGH?

[dig zoso]

Haha, Miles is still on the Cards. Our IF right now is Lyle Overbay, Aaron Hill, David Eckstein, and Troy Glaus (although he may be suspended). John McDonald and Marco Scutaro are on the bench.

Aw, as an A's fan, I was sad to see Scutaro go; he really helped us out so many times over the past few seasons. Loyalties aside, I do hope he does good things in Toronto!

[alinds]

*

[Rorer714]

*

...or just wipe out the last 10 years worth of stats and REALLY start with a clean slate.Hell,they took ALL of Marion Jones medals;not to mention her relay partners' medals and her times don't count

[solar]

There's no telling how many players are/were juiced on 'roids and HGH. The 80 some in this report were from TWO trainers. If that's how many two guys supplied to, I am guessing there are many others like them. Maybe not to the scope and scale of clients each had, but with one or two or three guys apiece.

[dig zoso]

*

Not that I care any less than the average fan about the prevalence of steroids in baseball, but the idea of the asterisk bothers me to no end.

...or just wipe out the last 10 years worth of stats and REALLY start with a clean slate.Hell,they took ALL of Marion Jones medals;not to mention her relay partners' medals and her times don't count

With Marion Jones and other track stars, the stripping of medals made sense because track and field is a mostly individual competition. Runners are separated into lanes, jumpers take turns; you can see the cause and effect relationship plainly.

With baseball, it's more difficult because the interactions between players matter. We talk so much about the sluggers, but what about the juiced pitchers, the juiced outfielders who robbed batters of homers? Because baseball is one of the ultimate team sports, it's impossible to know how to account for the effects of steroid use.

Especially now that guys like Clemens, Pettitte, and Gagne have been implicated, I'm surprised people aren't talking about the outcomes of entire games. We focus so much on individual stats, but should we suddenly discount division, pennant, and World Series wins? How does one know where to stop?

I'm an advocate of the "mental asterisk" idea. A physical symbol is unnecessary for the reasons above and because the story of this era will of course be passed on. The official record books say merely that in the 1919 World Series, Cincinnati beat Chicago...but we all heard the story as a part of our baseball education.

I think we've got to start thinking of season records within a more closed context and try to ween ourselves off our obsession of inter-era comparisons. Because those are never definitive when you take into account things like segregation, the advent of plane travel, day game/night game proportions.

Season records are simply who achieved the most, numerically, within the context of a season and a country. The rest is our responsibility: to educate future generations about what went on during this crazy period.

...sorry that got a bit long. Just my 2 cents.

[Toronto Zeppelin]

My bad, I meant Aaron Hill to third base. I'll get him and Miles mixed up until they quit and then some Glaus, I don't see how he comes back after this. Wasn't he gimpy as hell at the end of the year without the juice/HGH?

Glaus had plantar fasciatis the whole season, which is why he was "gimpy". He still hit 20 HR's and 62 RBI's despite missing significant playing time. The year before he hit 38HR's and had over 100RBI's. His suspected steroid use came with the Angels, not with the Jays (or D-Backs for that matter). Hill has played at SS and 3B, but he is best at 2B, and is expected to compete for a gold glove this upcoming season. His only problem is that he makes an absolutely spectucular play, only to boot and easy ground ball right after.

[Rorer714]

Not that I care any less than the average fan about the prevalence of steroids in baseball, but the idea of the asterisk bothers me to no end.

The asterisk bothers me just as much!!!

With Marion Jones and other track stars, the stripping of medals made sense because track and field is a mostly individual competition. Runners are separated into lanes, jumpers take turns; you can see the cause and effect relationship plainly.

Her relay partners lost their medals as well. Relay is a 'team' sport too. Why should her partners lose their medals?

With baseball, it's more difficult because the interactions between players matter. We talk so much about the sluggers, but what about the juiced pitchers, the juiced outfielders who robbed batters of homers? Because baseball is one of the ultimate team sports, it's impossible to know how to account for the effects of steroid use.

Like I was saying....wipe out all baseball stats for the last ten years (I know it will never happen and it's not feasible) What else can you do but start with a 'clean slate'? In a team sport, everyone pays for an individual's mistakes. They should have policed their own ranks. As much as baseball should be a team sport, there are a lot of individuals looking out for themselves and can't be policed because of their stature.

In the military, they would have been fragged or had the shit beaten out of them until they submitted to the will of the unit Everyone should pay.

[wanna be drummer]

The Mitchell Report will hopefully nip roids in the ass for baseball but it has its stupid moments

For example, why the need for a 9-page dedication to just Roger Clemens? He's like 45 years old, roids would help him through harder yes? Well thats great, except he doesn't through fastballs nearly as much as he used to. They wouldn't help him like they'd help Bonds or Tejada. I just don't think they needed to focus so much on him.

[Big Klu]

The Mitchell Report will hopefully nip roids in the ass for baseball but it has its stupid moments

For example, why the need for a 9-page dedication to just Roger Clemens? He's like 45 years old, roids would help him through harder yes? Well thats great, except he doesn't through fastballs nearly as much as he used to. They wouldn't help him like they'd help Bonds or Tejada. I just don't think they needed to focus so much on him.

Cause he'd [allegedly] be the barry bonds of pitching! duh

His counting stats would make him the best modern pitcher of all time. 340 wins, zillion K's. He's lucky Maddux is hovering around his win totals or else he'd be even more scrutinized for making it so high up alone the 300win list.

Everyone thought Clemens was done after '96. Theres no way he gets to 300+ wins without roids [allegedly]. Pitchers primarily take them to reduce recovery time between starts, not to gain bulk or pitching speed. Without roids [allegedly], he'd collapse during the 2nd half of the season or only last 5 innings....greatly reducing his chances of getting a game decision (w/l).

..all this assuming he did take roids. [allegedly]

[Hermit]

Cause he'd [allegedly] be the barry bonds of pitching! duh

His counting stats would make him the best modern pitcher of all time. 340 wins, zillion K's. He's lucky Maddux is hovering around his win totals or else he'd be even more scrutinized for making it so high up alone the 300win list.

Everyone thought Clemens was done after '96. Theres no way he gets to 300+ wins without roids [allegedly]. Pitchers primarily take them to reduce recovery time between starts, not to gain bulk or pitching speed. Without roids [allegedly], he'd collapse during the 2nd half of the season or only last 5 innings....greatly reducing his chances of getting a game decision (w/l).

..all this assuming he did take roids. [allegedly]

You're absolutely right, Klu.

afiac though,.. there's no need to say "[allegedly]" anymore.

The Rocket was roid fueled.

Roid rage,..

..ya think?

[Big Klu]

You're absolutely right, Klu.

afiac though,.. there's no need to say "[allegedly]" anymore.

The Rocket was roid fueled.

Clemens could be the Tom Cruise of baseball for all I know. As a man of meager means, I must legally cover all my bases.

bases...baseball... damn, I'm smooth.

[Mattmc1973]

sorry dig_zoso, but looks like your boy Dan Haren is leaving the A's and going to the D-backs...

[dig zoso]

sorry dig_zoso, but looks like your boy Dan Haren is leaving the A's and going to the D-backs...

Man...I knew of course that there was talk surrounding him, but Beane has this incredible way of timing these deals so that we're still surprised when they go through.

To be honest, I'm totally gutted right now. From the first day I saw Danny play in an Oakland uniform, there seemed to be something so special and hopeful about him that I wasn't even upset about losing Mulder in the deal. Particularly during last season, even if we weren't winning, he was great to watch.

But, as and A's fan, you get used to this. You just have to. Zito, Mulder, Hudson, Tejada, Giambi and so many more have left, and there's nothing to do but just trust Billy. The scary part about this deal is that it seems to mark the beginning of a new era for the A's. It's no secret now that we're in full rebuilding mode, but it's been a while since the last time we had to do this.

In a small way, that's a relief. You could tell that in the past two seasons or so, everything, all our signings had become too short-term. It felt like we weren't really catching up, not really creating something that would last.

At least I'll be able to see Haren face off with Zito in NL West clashes...a small consolation.

:'( Here ends my emotional eulogy. 2008 is sure going to be an interesting season...