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Reappraising 1980/07/07 - Berlin


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Now wait a minute :dont: I'm not so sure Hannover is THAT bad. I'm not convinced that Jonesy and Bonham left Page in TUF, its almost like they were still playing but the sound dropped out in the mixing board. Is that possible?

I think Page plays pretty well in TUF and especially the Stairway solo. Plant didn't like the venue because of the echo, nothing to do with the audience or the band's performance. What's so bad about thinking a place has bad acoustics? And the crowd was certainly more into it than Rotterdam.

Winston's remaster takes the dryness out of the soundboard.

There are a lot of statements thrown around that are declared to be fact when in actuality they are opinions. I'm not sure I see the value in condeming a show without recommending others formulate their own opinions.

All of the above ^^^^ is JUST MY OPINION.

As far as I'm concerned Hannover '80 is the new Tempe (Tempe 20/7/77 long being considered Zeppelin's worst performance, which has now been reappraised), so be prepared...for example Page's solo in "Trampled Under Foot" goes off on such a tangent -in a "WTF?!" kind of way- that Bonham and Jones stop playing. Throw in Robert Plant's negativity and you've got a definite candidate for Worst Ever Performance. In all its dry as a bone soundboard glory!

Jones himself used the term "relatively clean" to describe himself (and Plant) during this period. And, no, I don't recall John Paul Jones' vices ever getting the better of him when it came to his performance at any given time.

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Why don't you try to read a post before you quote it.

Never said Page was enjoying good health at this time and I'm not going to negate a whole tour because of negative gripers. If you think the tour sucked what's your point? Maybe you can bitch some more about Page's wah wah pedal at the 02 or how fucked he looked after his performance in 2007. Beat a dead horse.

Page and Jones had completely different roles in the band. Jimmy was way more out front and expected to perform killer visual and sonic shows consistently.Page is and was under a hell of a lot more scrutiny than JPJ. Just being at the Led Zeppelin shows I saw you could feel that was the expectation.

Robert's been quoted in the past that Jimmy took the big musical risks in Led Zeppelin. I believe him.

Come on! You just have to see the pics of Page on that tour to know he was in the grip of a serious habit - scruffy, greasy hair, painfully thin, rotten teeth, sweating like a pig and playing like shit! A drugs testing machine would blow up if he gave a sample! Of course we all know what happened to Bonham at Nurembourg!

I have never known Jones have a bad gig - ever!

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Honestly, why are you even here?

Come on! You just have to see the pics of Page on that tour to know he was in the grip of a serious habit - scruffy, greasy hair, painfully thin, rotten teeth, sweating like a pig and playing like shit! A drugs testing machine would blow up if he gave a sample!

Edited by Sue Dounim
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Honestly, why are you even here?

Haters gonna hate, master's gonna bait... :lol:

For all the dude's ranting and raving about Page's drug use, he must really love mid 70's Keith Richards... ;)

"If you think drugs have had a negative effect on music, do yerselves a favour: go home tonight, take all yer old records and burn them! 'Cos y'know all that great music that has enriched yer lives...all those musicians were...REALLY FUCKIN' HIGH ON DRUGS!" - Bill Hicks

"I was reading an interview with Keith Richards, and in the interview Keith intimated that kids should not do drugs...Keith Richards! Said kids should not do drugs...Keith, we can't do any more drugs, 'cos you already fuckin' did 'em all! Now we have to wait until yer dead so we can smoke yer ashes! Jesus Christ, talk about the pot and the fuckin' kettle..." - Denis Leary

Edited by Nutrocker
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Haters gonna hate, master's gonna bait... :lol:

For all the dude's ranting and raving about Page's drug use, he must really love mid 70's Keith Richards... ;)

"If you think drugs have had a negative effect on music, do yerselves a favour: go home tonight, take all yer old records and burn them! 'Cos y'know all that great music that has enriched yer lives...all those musicians were...REALLY FUCKIN' HIGH ON DRUGS!" - Bill Hicks

"I was reading an interview with Keith Richards, and in the interview Keith intimated that kids should not do drugs...Keith Richards! Said kids should not do drugs...Keith, we can't do any more drugs, 'cos you already fuckin' did 'em all! Now we have to wait until yer dead so we can smoke yer ashes! Jesus Christ, talk about the pot and the fuckin' kettle..." - Denis Leary

Has anyone seen any recent pics of Keith Richards? He looks like he has taken an acid bath!

Edited by LedZebedee
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Has anyone seen any recent pics of Keith Richards? He looks like he has taken an acid bath!

Whaddya mean, recent? :lol: Keith's looked like walking, talking death for over thirty years now...only difference is that he's finally stopped dying his hair! Other than that all he's missing is the scythe and cloak w/ hoodie...

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Whaddya mean, recent? :lol: Keith's looked like walking, talking death for over thirty years now...only difference is that he's finally stopped dying his hair! Other than that all he's missing is the scythe and cloak w/ hoodie...

Ha ha! Keef is bomb-proof and will be still rockin' in his wheelchair before the grim reaper comes knocking!

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Honestly, why are you even here?

Actually because i care! The fact i tell it how i see it and don't pull any punches does not make me any less of a fan - or does it?

If Jimmy Page wanted to play russian roulette with his drink and drugs intake during 77-80 and beyond then that is entirely his choice and business - i don't care. However when it starts to affect the music then i do care - a lot!

As a performing artist you have an unwritten contract with the paying audience to put on a good show. I'm not interested in your self inflicted addictions, insecurities or whatever. When it's show time i expect you to get a grip and deliver - whether you are in a pub band or in Led Zeppelin.

As i have said before zep should have called it a day in '77 with their musical integrity intact. Alternatively Page could have used the enforced 2 year layoff to clean up and come back in '79 rejuvinated, hungry again and ready to take on new wave and punk music but for whatever reason he did'nt - a wasted opportunity IMO.

Believe me i get no pleasure in hearing my favourite band in it's death throes on this tour - it's sad and a terrible waste. but hey ho what is done is done and it's all water under the bridge. It still gets my goat though that zep could have had a long career like Rush for example?

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Despite his habits, Jimmy still always tried his hardest to put on a good show, and when he didn't (i.e. 1977/04/09 Chicago), he did his damnedest to make up for it. (i.e. the next night, and the two extra Chicago shows scheduled for the third leg of the tour, with the added bonus that one of the shows was to be an "All requests" themed night.) And your description of Jimmy's physical condition was harsh, to say the least. I used to look at photos of him from this tour on a semi-regular basis, and I guarantee you, his teeth weren't "rotting" or anything like that. I'll admit he didn't look his best, but he was still a far cry from the 'gollum' that you painted a picture of for us all. As for the music, as far as '77 goes, he wasn't as affected as everyone makes him out to be either, with the exceptions of Tempe, the 3rd night in Landover (which I think he was doing an excellent job of keeping it together on the 2nd leg, I just consider this night a bit of a 'slip-up'.), and Louisville (which had more to do with the audience anyway.). As for '79, he was looking pretty bad at Knebworth, but his playing on the first night is still excellent. As far as '80 goes, I think he was putting on consistently decent performances, with spontaneous bursts of energy spread throughout, with 'White Summer/Black Mountain Side' being the only consistent blemish (most nights anyway).

Actually because i care! The fact i tell it how i see it and don't pull any punches does not make me any less of a fan - or does it?

If Jimmy Page wanted to play russian roulette with his drink and drugs intake during 77-80 and beyond then that is entirely his choice and business - i don't care. However when it starts to affect the music then i do care - a lot!

As a performing artist you have an unwritten contract with the paying audience to put on a good show. I'm not interested in your self inflicted addictions, insecurities or whatever. When it's show time i expect you to get a grip and deliver - whether you are in a pub band or in Led Zeppelin.

As i have said before zep should have called it a day in '77 with their musical integrity intact. Alternatively Page could have used the enforced 2 year layoff to clean up and come back in '79 rejuvinated, hungry again and ready to take on new wave and punk music but for whatever reason he did'nt - a wasted opportunity IMO.

Believe me i get no pleasure in hearing my favourite band in it's death throes on this tour - it's sad and a terrible waste. but hey ho what is done is done and it's all water under the bridge. It still gets my goat though that zep could have had a long career like Rush for example?

Edited by Sue Dounim
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Despite his habits, Jimmy still always tried his hardest to put on a good show, and when he didn't (i.e. 1977/04/09 Chicago), he did his damnedest to make up for it. (i.e. the next night, and the two extra Chicago shows scheduled for the third leg of the tour, with the added bonus that one of the shows was to be an "All requests" themed night.) And your description of Jimmy's physical condition was harsh, to say the least. I used to look at photos of him from this tour on a semi-regular basis, and I guarantee you, his teeth weren't "rotting" or anything like that. I'll admit he didn't look his best, but he was still a far cry from the 'gollum' that you painted a picture of for us all. As for the music, as far as '77 goes, he wasn't as affected as everyone makes him out to be either, with the exceptions of Tempe, the 3rd night in Landover (which I think he was doing an excellent job of keeping it together on the 2nd leg, I just consider this night a bit of a 'slip-up'.), and Louisville (which had more to do with the audience anyway.). As for '79, he was looking pretty bad at Knebworth, but his playing on the first night is still excellent. As far as '80 goes, I think he was putting on consistently decent performances, with spontaneous bursts of energy spread throughout, with 'White Summer/Black Mountain Side' being the only consistent blemish (most nights anyway).

Jimmy "Gollum" Page - ha ha! I like it! :lol: Well i do recall him being referred to as Lord of the Strings somewhere - groan!

Ok i accept i may have been a bit brutal in my assessment on his physical state but it pains me to see such a sharp decline in his usually regal demeanour in such a short time. Regarding his teeth i think you will find he has had all of them capped - you can longer see the gap between his front teeth caused by some sort of calcium deficiency he had around 79/80.

I could never accuse him of not trying but surely by laying off the substances it would have been effortless like it was back in 72/73 and not a struggle. When you refer to the 09/04/77 Chicago gig is that the one which was cut short due to his "ahem" food poisoning? If so i wasn't aware extra shows were added to compensate - a nice touch but surely prevention is preferable to cure every time?

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Ha ha! Keef is bomb-proof and will be still rockin' in his wheelchair before the grim reaper comes knocking!

As they say, cockroaches and Keith Richards...last critters standing after the Nuclear Holocaust... :lol:

As a performing artist you have an unwritten contract with the paying audience to put on a good show. I'm not interested in your self inflicted addictions, insecurities or whatever. When it's show time i expect you to get a grip and deliver - whether you are in a pub band or in Led Zeppelin.

The bolded part I particularly agree with. There is no fucking excuse for an audience to shell out their hard earned dollars in order to witness a shitty performance because members of the band are too goddamn irresponsible/reckless to perform with a modicum of sobriety. I believe getting so fucked up that you can barely stand up and going out and playing a gig -and I don't give a shit if it's a 200 person capacity dive straight outta The Blues Brothers or Madison Square Garden- is nothing but a big fuck you to yer audience. At least Jimmy Page was savvy enough to acknowledge that the 2007 reunion was "the first gig I ever played sober".

When you refer to the 09/04/77 Chicago gig is that the one which was cut short due to his "ahem" food poisoning? If so i wasn't aware extra shows were added to compensate - a nice touch but surely prevention is preferable to cure every time?

Well, Richard Cole actually told the audience when he made the cancellation announcement that they'd come back and replay the 9/4/77 Chicago show. I believe it was Page who said afterward that it would be an 'all request show'. Needless to say the cancellation of the remainder of the tour after Karac Plant's death put paid to that promise. Note that the proposed 1980 American Tour was supposed to start in Chicago, though.

I'm still convinced that though Page was a bit out of it at the outset of the 9/4/77 show his "illness" didn't really manifest itself until they played "Ten Years Gone" (I believe that there are members of this forum who were at the concert and can testify to that). My belief is that Jimmy did a line too much of something after "No Quarter" and it didn't agree with him, as whatever ailed him seems to come on quite suddenly while playing the solo in "Ten Years Gone" (the 8mm film from the show shows this as well).

Edited by Nutrocker
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...but surely by laying off the substances it would have been effortless like it was back in 72/73 and not a struggle.

I disagree, broken fingers and drugs and an intense touring schedule not forgotten, Page was a different player then he was in the earlier days...More exotic scales, more diverse improvisations, He played the shit out of the earlier albums, but the later material required more dangerous and exploratory leads, as opposed to the box blues leads used in the earlier days

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The bolded part I particularly agree with. There is no fucking excuse for an audience to shell out their hard earned dollars in order to witness a shitty performance because members of the band are too goddamn irresponsible/reckless to perform with a modicum of sobriety. I believe getting so fucked up that you can barely stand up and going out and playing a gig -and I don't give a shit if it's a 200 person capacity dive straight outta The Blues Brothers or Madison Square Garden- is nothing but a big fuck you to yer audience. At least Jimmy Page was savvy enough to acknowledge that the 2007 reunion was "the first gig I ever played sober".

I remember a good friend of mine, an excellent guitarist and Page fanatic who went to the second (11th Aug) Knebworth gig telling me Page was so poor that he went looking for a steward afterwards to demand his money back! How bad is that?

I must say i was stunned when i heard Page admit the O2 was the first gig he did sober - firstly that he would admit to it and secondly that he was incapable of getting on stage unless he was loaded! I have only ever played one gig drunk and that was the first and last time - i was rubbish! :wacko:

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...but surely by laying off the substances it would have been effortless like it was back in 72/73 and not a struggle.

I disagree, broken fingers and drugs and an intense touring schedule not forgotten, Page was a different player then he was in the earlier days...More exotic scales, more diverse improvisations, He played the shit out of the earlier albums, but the later material required more dangerous and exploratory leads, as opposed to the box blues leads used in the earlier days

Very true, Jesse...the point has been argued before: there's a big difference between playing the simpler blues based material the band played in their early days and the heavily complex pieces like "Ten Years Gone" or "Achilles Last Stand" that Page attempted to pull off live -with varied results- in their later performances. Though I do believe the blues is Jimmy Page's 'comfort zone' playing-wise, which would at least partly explain why blues based material like "In My Time Of Dying" and "Since I've Been Loving You" were mainstays of their concert repertoire. The bad 1980 versions of SIBLY cited in this discussion come down to Jimmy's guitar playing chops (or lack thereof), certainly not because it was a difficult song to perform.

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I remember a good friend of mine, an excellent guitarist and Page fanatic who went to the second (11th Aug) Knebworth gig telling me Page was so poor that he went looking for a steward to demand his money back after the gig! How bad is that?

I must say i was stunned when i heard Page admit the O2 was the first gig he did sober - firstly that he would admit to it and secondly that he was incapable of getting on stage unless he was loaded! I have only ever played one gig drunk and that was the first and last time - i was rubbish! :wacko:

I never played drunk back in my gigging days but I do remember the one gig my band tried to play where we'd all dropped acid beforehand was a decidedly failed experiment :lol: The Grateful Dead we were not...I don't recall that we were bad, but we threw our setlist out the window and just jammed- and our spacey jamming went right over the audience's head, and we just sort of abandoned the gig in the end. Normally we would wait until after the show to get fucked up.

As for Page admitting his sobriety at the 02 gig, good on him. I'm sure Jimmy looks back on some of those gigs he played back in the old days completely off his face with embarrassment. At least I would, if I was him.

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