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kingzoso

Goodfellas or Scarface...

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We get it. You don't like his politics. But what about the ARTISTIC merit of his films?

Great Point. I may not like a certain actor or director, but I still might like the Movie.

I am not to ignorant enough to dismiss a good movie just because I do not like who directed it or who casts the actors in it. To me, a good or great movie, is based on the story, plot and actors, not based on who wrote or filmed it.

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This is apples and oranges in a way. Its not really Pacino vs De Niro because De Niro was not the sole lead actor as was Pacino. I guess its a tossup. i still like the Godfather more and Heat is one of my favorites. Too many stupid scenes for me In Goodfella's and Scarface was overdone at the end. Heat to me was better than both.

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Scorsese loves to use the period rock & roll, and sometimes it can be effective, but I thought the use of Layla after the murder in the Cadillac didn't work at all. But ya gotta go with Goodfellas for one simple reason: One of the most famous scenes in movie history - Joe Pesci: "What, I'm a clown? I make you laugh? WHAT"S SO FUCKING FUNNY ABOUT ME?!!" :D

I don't think you'll get many agreeing with you there, that scene is probabley what most people under 40 associate Layla with.

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I thought the use of Layla was perfect for those scenes because the piano coda or whatever you'd call it, at least in my mind, is reflecting back on the inner turmoil and pain of the main song and is somewhat of a emotional release before moving forward in life. It's almost like a rebirth.
You think about a song like that and imagine it playing on the radio in a big city with thousands of people listening to it, thinking about old girlfriends or fond memories long gone as those piano keys ripple along. It is a masterpiece for that effect.
And then you have these gangsters cleaning up loose ends in their own little world before moving forward. All parties are moving forward and leaving the past behind. Some are just getting whacked first :-)

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I won't attempt any sort of analysis as others have already done so (some wonderfully). "Goodfellas" gets my vote without a moment's hesitation.

I don't think you'll get many agreeing with you there, that scene is probabley what most people under 40 associate Layla with.

Yes, and no doubt many people over 40 as well! I thought it worked very well.

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Ok, we get you don't exactly wish to have tea with the man, but what are your honest, impartial opinions of Platoon, Wall Street, and Born on the Fourth of July? Three of his more mainstream, less controversial films?

I like to think I am a pretty impartial kind of guy, for example I think John Ford & John Wayne were chickenhawk pieces of shit that had no compunction of sending others to die while staying warm and safe back home, however I really like their movies. You can hate the man yet love his movies. Another one, Leni Riefensthal, amazing cinematographer but a real moral cesspool. Thank god for her contribution, but I would not piss on her if she were on fire. Well, she is dead now so it really does not matter.

Not particularly an Oliver Stone fan, either.

However - and I may take some flak here - I think the first half of Natural Born Killers is actually really good.

Once they are captured and go to prison, the movie becomes a train wreck.

But the various perspectives of Mickey and Mallory (e.g., the B&W security camera views, the violent anime views) are brilliant, revealing how sociopaths probably reel through multiple perspectives as they process varying input.

The waitress responding to Mickey's inquiry about the Key Lime pie is decidedly nondescript - Well, key lime's great, but... it's an acquired taste.

Then we see the reply as it's filtered by Mickey into a very suggestive response.

I also liked the peyote scene, as it really had the feel of tripping.

The first half was great Tarantino, but I have no idea what happened with the rest of the movie.

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Much like with Tarantino's use of "Stuck In The Middle With You" in Reservior Dogs, you never quite think of "Layla" the same way once you've seen Goodfellas.

Marty Scorsese's love of music is well known- witness his documentaries on George Harrison, the Stones and -of course- The Last Waltz. Actually I suppose we have Robbie Robertson to thank for the soundtracks for Scorsese's films, since he's usually in charge of the music for them.

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"Goodfellas" for most of the same reasons already presented.

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IMHO, Both great movies. Goodfellas was a great movie due to a great cast of acting, but Scarface was Pacino..what can I say, Pacino as an actor to me is what Led Zeppelin is to music..THE BEST!!! :peace:

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^^ I am saying that he IMHO is the greatest actor. It goes without saying who I think is the greatest band :peace:

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IMHO, Both great movies. Goodfellas was a great movie due to a great cast of acting, but Scarface was Pacino..what can I say, Pacino as an actor to me is what Led Zeppelin is to music..THE BEST!!! :peace:

"Goodfellas" was a bit more than just a great cast...great script, editing, score, etc.

Pacino is a great actor, but to me, "Scarface" is his Tempe 1977.

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One scene that always stood out for me in Goodfellas is when Ray Liotta takes Lorraine Bracco through the back entrance of the nightclub while "He Kissed Me" by the Crystals plays in the background. That was an impressive bit of film making and to think Scorsese did it in one take. Scorsese is a master at using music to establish time, place and mood. Take Goodfellas' opening scene in which Ray Liotta proclaims: "As long as I can remember I wanted to be a gangster" while "From Rags to Riches" plays in the background.

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"One scene that always stood out for me in Goodfellas is when Ray Liotta takes Lorraine Bracco through the back entrance of the nightclub while "He Kissed Me" by the Crystals plays in the background. That was an impressive bit of film making and to think Scorsese did it in one take."

That was a great scene. One of my favorites of the film as well. Though their style is somewhat different, I was reminded of that scene when Uma walks around thru the Tokyo nightclub in Kill Bill Vol 1. I read somewhere that was one long camera shot following her and watching it made me sense Tarantino was thinking about that exact Goodfellas scene you are describing as he filmed it.

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It would be The Godfather.... I can live w/o the Goodfellas or the Scarface story.

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"One scene that always stood out for me in Goodfellas is when Ray Liotta takes Lorraine Bracco through the back entrance of the nightclub while "He Kissed Me" by the Crystals plays in the background. That was an impressive bit of film making and to think Scorsese did it in one take."

That was a great scene. One of my favorites of the film as well. Though their style is somewhat different, I was reminded of that scene when Uma walks around thru the Tokyo nightclub in Kill Bill Vol 1. I read somewhere that was one long camera shot following her and watching it made me sense Tarantino was thinking about that exact Goodfellas scene you are describing as he filmed it.

Some of the best long take scenes recently for me were in Children of Men.

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Since I haven't said it specifically, definitely Goodfellas over Scarface.

Already mentioned, but Scarface always feels dated, while Goodfellas has a timeless quality.

Scenes and accompanying songs that stand out to me are:

The opening of Cream's Sunshine of Your Love while the camera lingers on Jimmy Conway as he watches Morrie walk away (obviously considering whacking him).

The Stones' Gimme Shelter as Henry and Sandy cut and package cocaine.

Nilsson's Jump Into The Fire followed by The Stones' Monkey Man is brilliant as a paranoid and frantic Henry rushes around town trying to do way too many things at once.

Funny, but as I write this, it occurs to me that the soundtrack is one thing that really separates the 2 movies.

I can't think of a single recognizable song from Scarface, and what I do remember was some horribly cheesy 80s/disco construct that seemed intended to lend a feeling of flashy, high-living, but sounded weak and insubstantial at best.

So, yeah - Goodfellas hands down.

Edited by TypeO

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but the problem is, watching it thirty years later, it looks like 1983 and only 1983. Very cheesy. There's no doubt that Scarface is a product of its time. Goodfellas is timeless in comparison, even if the story does span about 25 years. I find it amazing that Scarface is the film so emulated within modern "Gangster" culture when Goodfellas is a lot more realistic in that regard. And it's not that Scarface is a bad film -I quite enjoy it, but you have to take it for what it is...it's like the gangster film version of a mindless Hollywood action flick.

This.

Goodfellas is a timeless masterpiece. I feel Scarface is overrated, I enjoy it, but I much prefer the other De Palma/Pacino collaboration "Carlitto's Way" which is vastly underrated

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I believe that "Goodfellas" is Marty Scorsese's Masterpiece (apart from "Raging Bull", which did win Mr. De Niro His long time coming Academy Award for Best Actor).

How "Goodfellas" did not win an Academy Award for this as Best Picture or Best Director is beyond my comprehension.

"Goodfellas" will go down in History as one of the Greatest films of All-Time. Just like the "Godfather" (I and II) and even "Star Wars".

Thank You, Martin Scorsese, Bobby De Niro, Joe Pesci, Ray Liotta, Lorraine Bracco, Paul Sorvino, Francis Ford Coppola, Al Pacino (Bobby De Niro, again), George Lucas, Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford and Princess Leia (Carrie Fisher). I can't leave out the Thanks without included R2-D2 and C-3PO.

Edited by kingzoso

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I've never been able to stand more than 2 minutes or so of Scarface, Al Pacino's performance was so drag-queen over the top and his horrible ACCENT. Geez.

It's a beloved classic film where I live, though people seem to think it's a comedy.

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Not particularly an Oliver Stone fan, either.

However - and I may take some flak here - I think the first half of Natural Born Killers is actually really good.

Once they are captured and go to prison, the movie becomes a train wreck.

But the various perspectives of Mickey and Mallory (e.g., the B&W security camera views, the violent anime views) are brilliant, revealing how sociopaths probably reel through multiple perspectives as they process varying input.

The waitress responding to Mickey's inquiry about the Key Lime pie is decidedly nondescript - Well, key lime's great, but... it's an acquired taste.

Then we see the reply as it's filtered by Mickey into a very suggestive response.

I also liked the peyote scene, as it really had the feel of tripping.

The first half was great Tarantino, but I have no idea what happened with the rest of the movie.

LSD, lots of LSD according to Stone.

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It's a fair question.

The first Stone film I saw was Midnight Express. Stone wasn't the director, he just wrote the film adaptation of the book .If you recall, in the film as opposed to the book (or the actual facts) Stone took huge leaps of dramatic license when he rewrote this "true story". And that is my problem with Stone, he always revises history to suit himself, but usually in the most partisan and slanted way possible. It's not like a Tarantino film where the story is a complete fabrication from the start. Stone's distortions are so partisan and over the top, that I have no time to waste with any of his films.

I saw Platoon and hated it. It was one thing to depict the Vietnam war in a negative light, but to stereotype the soldiers and the battles to that extent is just as deceitful as John Wayne's Green Beret film going the other way. It is clear that Oliver Stone hates America and it's history and wants to rewrite it his way.

Did you ever see the 1998 film adaptation of The Thin Red Line? For my money this was an honest film about war. No "John Wayne" crap like you said, a real look at the horrors and atrocities that occur in battle. Stone could never make an honest film like that, because right from the start he has no intention of being honest. Stone's films are as slanted as a paid political ad.

I'm a big fan of war films, but the first thing they need to do is drop the politics and propaganda, and tell us what happened in an honest fashion. After that, I am open to the director asking bigger questions within the context of a historical event. But if the film has too overt of an agenda; I'm tuning out.

You really want to see about as unbiased look regarding war as possible, check out James Bradley's Flags of our Fathers & Letters from Iwo Jima. They are adapting his book Flyboys for the screen and if they stay accurate, many people will get a big ass shock in regards to war in general and how once the bullets start to fly, there are no good guys or bad guys, only survival and payback.

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^ Well, you can disagree all you want, interviews with real combat survivors on both sides tell a different story. I am not here to bash anyone but until people are aware of the reality, the facts of what war is, this bullshit will continue until we self destruct. Humanity needs to understand that war in the big picture has no heros, no honor, only death, survival, and retribution. Of course there will be individual acts of gallantry and courage on both sides of any conflict, but the vast majority is contrary. Personally I liked Sherman's philosophy on total war, that is make it so horrible no one would dare contemplate. Too bad Sherman did not understand human nature.

Regarding Scarface. Though the "gangsta" culture today looks toward this film as a template, the Cuban-American community sees the movie as a blight. During filming the City of Miami shut down production because of the way the film portrayed Cubans, that's why 90% of the film was shot in LA. The irony is during the 80's & 90's the Cubans which came as boat people in 80' WERE the main dealers and cause of crime in Dade County.

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I've never been able to stand more than 2 minutes or so of Scarface, Al Pacino's performance was so drag-queen over the top and his horrible ACCENT. Geez.

It's a beloved classic film where I live, though people seem to think it's a comedy.

I think campy over the top Pacino can still be entertaining to watch but really isn't a match for sublte focused Pacino from the first two Godfather films. That's why I tend to favour De Niro, be maintained that kind of form from the 70's into the mid 90's. Perhaps the best comparison to me would be Angel Heart vs Devils Advocate, De Niro's performance is much more subtle but much more effective for it.

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Pacino is a great actor, but to me, "Scarface" is his Tempe 1977.

Ouch :lol: Have you ever seen a truly bad Pacino flick, like Author!Author or S1mone (to name but two Pacino stinkers)? Those are Al's Tempe...Scarface is more of a Seattle '77 :lol:

I've never been able to stand more than 2 minutes or so of Scarface, Al Pacino's performance was so drag-queen over the top and his horrible ACCENT. Geez.

It's a beloved classic film where I live, though people seem to think it's a comedy.

Scarface is a great movie to watch after partaking in a doobie or two :lol: by the end of the movie it is so over the top you can't help but shake yer head and laugh...even better is watching it on TV, and seeing how they absolutely butcher the language ("Like a chicken just waiting to be plucked" etc :lol: :lol: :lol: )

Regarding Scarface. the Cuban-American community sees the movie as a blight.

Can you really blame them?

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^ Well, you can disagree all you want, interviews with real combat survivors on both sides tell a different story. I am not here to bash anyone but until people are aware of the reality, the facts of what war is, this bullshit will continue until we self destruct. Humanity needs to understand that war in the big picture has no heros, no honor, only death, survival, and retribution. Of course there will be individual acts of gallantry and courage on both sides of any conflict, but the vast majority is contrary. Personally I liked Sherman's philosophy on total war, that is make it so horrible no one would dare contemplate. Too bad Sherman did not understand human nature.

Regarding Scarface. Though the "gangsta" culture today looks toward this film as a template, the Cuban-American community sees the movie as a blight. During filming the City of Miami shut down production because of the way the film portrayed Cubans, that's why 90% of the film was shot in LA. The irony is during the 80's & 90's the Cubans which came as boat people in 80' WERE the main dealers and cause of crime in Dade County.

As a denizen of Miami, I can assure you a lot of Cubans LOVE this film, though as I said in my previous post, they regard it as a comedy. I do remember the filming being shut down, but many have since come to embrace the film (younger folks probably).

P.S. The Cubans AND the Colombians, often at war with each other over the drug trade, contributed to the crime wave. If you haven't seen the documentary "Cocaine Cowboys," check it out - it's really interesting.

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