British Soldier beheaded on public street

[Knebby]

The reason I posted it here right at the moment is the following one:

1. I haven't been on the computer for quite a long time lately.

2. I wanted to know how many of the people who get enraged as soon as the word "Muslim" pops up would react.

The people whom I referred to as "button pushing heroes" were the ones mentioned in 2, I don't mean EVERYBODY here.

Sorry for the inconvenience, but I got a bit carried away by the "immense logic" of folks like SAJ (And more far-right characters that I have lately had the un-pleasure to meet).

As far as what you say bout the media highlighting what they want.....................I completely agree with you.

Thanks for the clarification , that's noted and appreciated.

[greenman]

Like many others I looked at your link. Like many others, I didn't pass comment on it. As others have pointed out, to me the time to do that would have been when it happened, it is curious that you didn't think it important enough to post about it then. So it seemed that your reason to post about it now was to try to make people WRONG for displaying horror and sympathy about the murder of this soldier. It is NOT wrong. You also didn't post about the Scottish teenager stabbed to death by a Pakistani man in 2004. Or the many other potentially racially-motivated murders that have been committed over the years.

All of us are aware that this murder in Woolwich ( I won't call it a terrorist attack, it was a murder) is one of many, but it is garnering this kind of attention because of the way in which it happened. I personally have never seen footage of a murderer standing beside his victim in broad daylight giving his excuses for the crime. People are being scared by the media into thinking that this may be the tip of the iceberg and more murderers are skulking in the background waiting to commit similar atrocities.

PLUS - it was a shocking , vile horrible incident. that's why we're all discussing it here - did I really need to give reasons????

But trying to make us wrong and imply that we are biggotted, "button-pushing", have double-standards or are couch potatoes just because we haven't made this a discussion thread about every potential racial/religious murder that was ever committed is really offensive. Just because people didn't jump on your link. That's wrong Reswati, and very much lacks respect in my opinion.

To me fair to him though this thread wasn't started with the intension of expressing sympathy, it was started with the intension of "scoring political points".

[Knebby]

To me fair to him though this thread wasn't started with the intension of expressing sympathy, it was started with the intension of "scoring political points".

Noted, but it wasn't just the instigator of the thread who was participating, and the input of others didn't have that motivation. Anyway I appreciate Reswati's clarification as I said.

[mstork]

The reason I posted it here right at the moment is the following one:

1. I haven't been on the computer for quite a long time lately.

2. I wanted to know how many of the people who get enraged as soon as the word "Muslim" pops up would react.

The people whom I referred to as "button pushing heroes" were the ones mentioned in 2, I don't mean EVERYBODY here.

Sorry for the inconvenience, but I got a bit carried away by the "immense logic" of folks like SAJ (And more far-right characters that I have lately had the un-pleasure to meet).

As far as what you say bout the media highlighting what they want.....................I completely agree with you.

Does acknowledging that Islamic terrorism exists and is a deadly phenomenon make one a "far-right character"? You obviously like labeling people so I want to make sure mine is proper.

[kenog]

The Daily Mail (UK) is running a photograph (below) of a sister of one of the accused, and she is smiling for the cameras when taken away for questioning in a police car. What the hell is wrong with these people? Is she enjoying her five minutes of fame? Meanwhile, the bereft family of the executed soldier described how they saw the soldier's body on television and spent 12 hours trying to contact him before they were told he was dead.

Now, the British police have arrested an 85 year old woman, and put her in handcuffs for standing outside a Mosque shouting for Muslims to go back to their own country. OK, take her aside and tell her that her conduct is not helping matters, but this seems to be a bit OTT!!

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330286/Lee-Rigbys-family-saw-footage-murder-TV-desperately-tried-to-check-ok.html#ixzz2UEK0PXXx

[chef free]

So to sum up most of this thread, there seems to be two main themes:

1. "Islamic extremists are very dangerous."

2. "They are no worse than any other religious extremists."

I say it is possible that both views are correct. I must assert, however, that as non-Muslim westerners, we are considered the enemy and could be targeted by Islamic extremists. It seems much less likely, though not impossible, that we would be targeted by Christian, Jewish, Hindu or Communist extremists, whom I freely admit exist. Further, although many religions/belief systems have had conflict with other specific religions/belief systems, I can't think of any other group which has had such constant conflict with so many other groups. As I pointed out in my second post "Muslims are fighting the Hindu in India, the Catholics in the Philippines, the Jews in the Middle East, the Orthodox Christians in the Caucuses, the God-less Atheists in Europe and the USA, and even the Buddhists in Sri Lanka. In countries where there are only Muslims, the Sunni and the Shia have been fighting for about 1200 years!" This maybe due to their religious beliefs, some other cultural factors or their perceptions of the intentions of others. However I don't think that it can be denied. The next question is "Now what do we do?"

[kenog]

I wonder how dangerous the threat is to us from Muslims when compared with Fat Boy's regime in North Korea?

So to sum up most of this thread, there seems to be two main themes:
1. "Islamic extremists are very dangerous."
2. "They are no worse than any other religious extremists."

[Anjin-san]

I wonder how dangerous the threat is to us from Muslims when compared with Fat Boy's regime in North Korea?

WTC 1993,USS Cole, 9/11/2001 more?

[reswati]

Does acknowledging that Islamic terrorism exists and is a deadly phenomenon make one a "far-right character"? You obviously like labeling people so I want to make sure mine is proper.

And you like playing the victim, else you wouldn't have replied.

(If you think this cap fits you...........well, wear it)

Jeez.

I do not ignore that there are violent imbeciles who use Islam as an excuse for murder,

but neither do I ignore that there are other imbeciles who use posters with Christian biblical citations as a propaganda tool to get people to go to war against 3rd world countries.

(You may find these beautugliful posters earlier in this thread).

Whether a suicide bomber or a high tech weapon blows up your house, in the name of Allah or Christ.........the result will be the same.

Hope you are satisfied now.

[reswati]

PS,

this thread is going off the rails......instead of cursing the living,

rather mourn the dead.

[Anjin-san]

PS,

this thread is going off the rails......instead of cursing the living,

rather mourn the dead.

Crazy Train?

OK,how can we help the family? I can return some cans/bottles,...after the Boston attack/Oklahoma disaster not a lot in the kitty,...

[mstork]

And you like playing the victim, else you wouldn't have replied.

(If you think this cap fits you...........well, wear it)

Jeez.

I do not ignore that there are violent imbeciles who use Islam as an excuse for murder,

but neither do I ignore that there are other imbeciles who use posters with Christian biblical citations as a propaganda tool to get people to go to war against 3rd world countries.

(You may find these beautugliful posters earlier in this thread).

Whether a suicide bomber or a high tech weapon blows up your house, in the name of Allah or Christ.........the result will be the same.

Hope you are satisfied now.

"Victim" is a good label, I knew you wouldn't let me down. Thanks!

The wars the west have pursued in the Middle East have nothing to do with religion and are certainly NOT in the name of Christ. They are geopolitical, and you can certainly argue Ill-advised in some cases, but it's a massive leap of moral equivalence to compare a few propaganda posters to the radical (I repeat, "radical") Islamic violence we're seeing.

I'm sure I'm not the only person here who has lost a friend or family member to this violence. I'm not denying that every religion has their nut jobs. But I have a very hard time keeping my mouth shut when someone suggests that these nuts are all equally dangerous, not to mention mobilized. As Chef Free pointed out, this has been the case as long as Islam has been around. It's not a reaction to the ills of the west; it's part of the fabric of the religion. Luckily not every adherent follows this view, but enough do to make trouble in a way other religions do not in 2013.

[reswati]

Neither did you let me down, Mstork.

On the contrary you just have proven once more to see one side of the medal, and ignore the other.

Islam as well as Christianity were and are still used to kill and oppress people.

In the case of Islam you blame it on the fabric of the religion.

In the case of everything the Christians have done, you wave it away like it is nothing....lol, blame it on the inquisition, haha.

It's a nice trick to call wars that were started by Christians something geopolitical.

If Afghanistan would attack your country, would you also call it geopolitical then? Has Afghanistan ever attacked your country at all?

(Sorry that I am so ill informed about that......mea maxima culpa)

We have the same problem in Holland right at this moment.

There is some really nice movement called the Freedom Party

They are here to protect us from Islamisation.

As soon as a muslim does ANYTHING wrong..............it's the religion who is to blame cause, look, look Islam creates savages.....call in the government, it has to be discussed, it has to be front page news.

If one of their voters guns down an entire supermarket (Tristan van der V.)................you hear nothing at all from them.

When one project X party goes out of hand, and some thousand juveniles wreck and burn an entire town...........silence, nothing.

The Freedom Party protects gay people, since Muslims attack and oppress gay people.

In the meantime the Freedom Party goes to get their funding in the bible belt by gay-bashing organisations, but hey....no word about that....the muslim savages are the only gay bashers.

The list can go on forever..........until now there was not one muslim terrorist attack in this country, we haven't been islamized, and the Freedom Party gets rich by scaring people. The 9-11 attacks gave us an easy scapegoat, so why don't we use it.......we have no Russians to fear anymore, neither have we got any witches to burn.

Luckily not every western civilized person follows these kind of principles.

But even the ones who don't follow them, still got enough weapons and use them right now to "defend our so very civilized way"

[Anjin-san]

oops!Come on res,......let's get drunk and get some Chinese food!

Egg roll?

[mstork]

Neither did you let me down, Mstork.

On the contrary you just have proven once more to see one side of the medal, and ignore the other.

Islam as well as Christianity were and are still used to kill and oppress people.

In the case of Islam you blame it on the fabric of the religion.

In the case of everything the Christians have done, you wave it away like it is nothing....lol, blame it on the inquisition, haha.

It's a nice trick to call wars that were started by Christians something geopolitical.

If Afghanistan would attack your country, would you also call it geopolitical then?

We have the same problem in Holland right at this moment.

There is some really nice movement called the Freedom Party

They are here to protect us from Islamisation.

As soon as a muslim does ANYTHING wrong..............it's the religion who is to blame cause, look, look Islam creates savages.

If one of their voters guns down an entire fucking supermarket (Tristan van der V.)................you hear nothing at all from them.

The Freedom Party protects gay people, since Muslims attack and oppress gay people.

In the meantime the Freedom Party goes to get their funding in the bible belt by gay-bashing organisation, but hey....no word about that....the muslim savages are the only gay bashers.

Luckily not every western civilized person follows these kind of principles.

But even the ones who don't follow them, still got enough weapons and use them right now to "defend our so very civilized way"

I'm not understanding how invading Afghanistan after 9/11 for instance, was motivated by "Christianity"? The US was attacked on 9/11 and went into Afghanistan to attack the perpetrators. Not in the name of Christ, but yes as a geopolitically motivated act.

So I'll accept that the invasion of Afghanistan was started by Americans, or westerners (although we didn't start it any more than we started WW2), but "Christians", suggesting this was a manifestation of a spiritual movement? No. On the other hand, the perpetrators of 9/11, 7/7, etc. made it eminently clear that their vision of Islam (notice I said "their" vision of Islam) was the motivating factor.

[ScarletMacaw]

I haven't read all the posts here, as some of the posters are on my Ignore list. I've read enough to discover that some people here have no knowledge of (or interest in) history. Every event has a long chain of events that preceded it. If you don't understand the chain of events, a shocking event can seem incomprehensible to you. If, on the other hand, you have studied history and psychology, these events are not incomprehensible but actually in some cases predictable. I guess some people have neither the interest nor perhaps the finances or maybe the prerequisites to attend college (or read college-level books) but if you really don't know anything about history or psychology, why is it that you think you can expound on these subjects? I wouldn't go on about rocket science or chemical engineering or something else I have no background in....I guess it's just another example of how ignorance and arrogance tend to go together.

[Disco Duck]

I know nothing about this young woman but of one thing I'm almost certain; she is a not a Muslim fundamentalist. Note the lack of hijab. In fact, she probably isn't Muslim at all. According to articles in the Daily Mail and elsewhere, Michael Adebolaji is a convert to Islam. His mother attends church regularly. He and the other killer both have Yoruba surnames. That is probably why investigators doubt they're connected to the Boko Haram insurgency in Nigeria. As to why the young woman smiled for the cameras? Who knows? She maybe one of those girls who grins and giggles when she is embarrassed.

The Daily Mail (UK) is running a photograph (below) of a sister of one of the accused, and she is smiling for the cameras when taken away for questioning in a police car. What the hell is wrong with these people? Is she enjoying her five minutes of fame? Meanwhile, the bereft family of the executed soldier described how they saw the soldier's body on television and spent 12 hours trying to contact him before they were told he was dead.

Now, the British police have arrested an 85 year old woman, and put her in handcuffs for standing outside a Mosque shouting for Muslims to go back to their own country. OK, take her aside and tell her that her conduct is not helping matters, but this seems to be a bit OTT!!

article-2330231-19F928D2000005DC-511_308x402.jpg

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330286/Lee-Rigbys-family-saw-footage-murder-TV-desperately-tried-to-check-ok.html#ixzz2UEK0PXXx

[reswati]

I'm not understanding how invading Afghanistan after 9/11 for instance, was motivated by "Christianity"? The US was attacked on 9/11 and went into Afghanistan to attack the perpetrators. Not in the name of Christ, but yes as a geopolitically motivated act.

So I'll accept that the invasion of Afghanistan was started by Americans, or westerners (although we didn't start it any more than we started WW2), but "Christians", suggesting this was a manifestation of a spiritual movement? No. On the other hand, the perpetrators of 9/11, 7/7, etc. made it eminently clear that their vision of Islam (notice I said "their" vision of Islam) was the motivating factor.

I do not say that the attack on Afghanistan was motivated by Christianity..............it was carried out by a Christian nation, of whom SOME people think going there is their divine right/mission, hence the posters.

This is just as loon as that SOME muslims see it as their divine right/mission to blow up buldings.

The difference is that not the entire army of terrorist-land has come to run over your country, but only the nutjobs.

We as being civilized westerners send back an entire army (including the reli-loons) instead................

Dig?

[kenog]

DD,

I don't believe I said in my post that the young woman was a Muslim. In a Daily Mail excerpt which I posted earlier in the thread, the point is made that his family moved location to keep him from Muslim radicals. His family are in fact Christian.

I see you note that the young woman is smiling for the cameras, but there is no explanation as to why she is doing that. It is a huge tragedy not just for the soldier's family, but also the killer's family. There really is nothing to smile about.

I know nothing about this young woman but of one thing I'm almost certain; she is a not a Muslim fundamentalist. Note the lack of hijab. In fact, she probably isn't Muslim at all. According to articles in the Daily Mail and elsewhere, Michael Adebolaji is a convert to Islam. His mother attend church regularly. As to why the young woman smiled for the cameras? He and the other killer both have Yoruba surnames. This is probably why investigators concluded they're not connected to the Boko Haram insurgency in Nigeria.

[Knebby]

I haven't read all the posts here, as some of the posters are on my Ignore list. I've read enough to discover that some people here have no knowledge of (or interest in) history. Every event has a long chain of events that preceded it. If you don't understand the chain of events, a shocking event can seem incomprehensible to you. If, on the other hand, you have studied history and psychology, these events are not incomprehensible but actually in some cases predictable. I guess some people have neither the interest nor perhaps the finances or maybe the prerequisites to attend college (or read college-level books) but if you really don't know anything about history or psychology, why is it that you think you can expound on these subjects? I wouldn't go on about rocket science or chemical engineering or something else I have no background in....I guess it's just another example of how ignorance and arrogance tend to go together.

So this event was predictable??? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha fecking HA!I've read enough to discover that some people will still comment on the posts of those on their "ignore" list. Which says it all.

[reswati]

As I PM'd this to Mstork, I might as well post it here:

"We should continue our discussion in another thread......I find it inappropriate to have a debate about extremists in a thread were people should mourn an innocent murder victim.

Sick fact is that the thread wasn't even started to mourn anyone, not every murderer wants to convert people to a religion........hence that the word islamisation was highly sickening imo."

[kenog]

Rest assured that many of us on the site have attended university, and have more than one degree. We have a couple of members who have doctorates and work as university lecturers. Having said that, there are many on here who have never been near higher education, and yet I find them consistently impressive, irrespective of which subject they tackle.

I guess some people have neither the interest nor perhaps the finances or maybe the prerequisites to attend college (or read college-level books) but if you really don't know anything about history or psychology, why is it that you think you can expound on these subjects? I wouldn't go on about rocket science or chemical engineering or something else I have no background in....I guess it's just another example of how ignorance and arrogance tend to go together.

[Knebby]

Rest assured that many of us on the site have attended university, and have more than one degree. We have a couple of members who have doctorates and work as university lecturers. Having said that, there are many on here who have never been near higher education, and yet I find them consistently impressive, irrespective of which subject they tackle.

I would applaud you but super mighty Scarlet wouldn't see it anyway.

[Disco Duck]

DD,

I don't believe I said in my post that the young woman was a Muslim. In a Daily Mail excerpt which I posted earlier in the thread, the point is made that his family moved location to keep him from Muslim radicals. His family are in fact Christian.

I see you note that the young woman is smiling for the cameras, but there is no explanation as to why she is doing that. It is a huge tragedy not just for the soldier's family, but also the killer's family. There really is nothing to smile about.

I know YOU didn't say she was Muslim. However, I'm not certain that most posters realize that Michael Adebolaji wasn't born into or grow up in a Muslim family. Even if people think banning Muslims from moving to the UK is a good idea, it wouldn't have prevented Adebolaji's parents from emigrating to the UK since they aren't Muslim. That was the point I was trying to make.

I worked at a university for many years, a job that brought me into contact with hundreds of young women. Some of them used to grin and giggle when put on the spot. It was a defense mechanism, I think. If you didn't know this about them you might think them silly or callous at times. I don't know if the young woman in the photo is like that but it's something to consider.

[kenog]

I would applaud you but super mighty Scarlet wouldn't see it anyway.