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Triplet Kick

New Empress Valley soundboard release - 13 Feb 1975 Nassau NY (w/Ron Wood!)

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it's hard to judge without hav

When fans who get the EVSD version via download find it necessary to remaster the thing before they're even finished listening to it because the EVSD mastering is so loud (i.e. 'brickwalled') I don't think I'd say EVSD is 'doing their best' or giving us the best quality. I'm sorry, but they're not. When the bootleg company charges extortionate amounts for their product yet don't seem to give a ratfuck about the goddamn sound quality, that's a problem. If I'd spent $150 or whatever on this, I'd be pissed, Amduscia is infinitely more forgiving than I am :lol:

it's hard to judge when one has never heard the original master used for those releases...

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When fans who get the EVSD version via download find it necessary to remaster the thing before they're even finished listening to it because the EVSD mastering is so loud (i.e. 'brickwalled') I don't think I'd say EVSD is 'doing their best' or giving us the best quality. I'm sorry, but they're not. When the bootleg company charges extortionate amounts for their product yet don't seem to give a ratfuck about the goddamn sound quality, that's a problem. If I'd spent $150 or whatever on this, I'd be pissed, Amduscia is infinitely more forgiving than I am :lol:

People cannot always assume that the people who purchase these boots are doing it for the sole reason of hearing the show. Many people who spend the money are perfectly happy with the way it sounds, and do not necessarily understand the term "brickwalled". Others buy it knowing full well they will remaster it for their own listening. I would wager a majority, in the 60% - 70% range, are fully aware that they can download the show but still choose to buy the bootleg.

If you've never seen, felt or touched the product, and spent no money on it, how can you criticize it?

People have opinions, and opinions are always welcome. I keep an open mind. To each his own. But you are not paying anything. I don't look at turkey at the deli in the grocery store, refuse to pay for it, then take it and enjoy it, then say it had the consistency of crap.

If you're not paying for the product then the manufacturer doesn't care about your opinions. And they know that you'll download the next one rather than buy it, so why try to appease?

Edited by ListenToThis

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I think what he's trying to say - is that it would be nice if these tapes were in better hands. Carefully, lovingly transferred. So that no "fixing" after the fact has to be done. They're the ones releasing them to the masses, after all, show some pride in what you do. Even if it is a crime :D

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then they might (oh jesus!) have to pay someone a small fee to kindly master the tapes for them! (when in reality, people would probably do it for free for EVSD, just to be able to hear it first! BUT, then there becomes the risk of this person liberating it if it can't be done securely, etc)

if i could, i would do it for free just to be able to hear unheard sbds. can't say my resume is that great, as far as (re)mastering & transfer experience goes.

edit: this new sbd sounds like two things were done. 1, amplification (BAD! BAD!) and 2, removing gaps and smoothing tape cuts to make a flowing 3cd release. (even though the remaster will be much, much better)

Edited by wilsoncb420

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it's hard to judge when one has never heard the original master used for those releases...

My ears tell me the tapes EVSD used for this release weren't even remotely close to the 'original masters'...

People cannot always assume that the people who purchase these boots are doing it for the sole reason of hearing the show. Many people who spend the money are perfectly happy with the way it sounds, and do not necessarily understand the term "brickwalled". Others buy it knowing full well they will remaster it for their own listening. I would wager a majority, in the 60% - 70% range, are fully aware that they can download the show but still choose to buy the bootleg.

If you've never seen, felt or touched the product, and spent no money on it, how can you criticize it?

People have opinions, and opinions are always welcome. I keep an open mind. To each his own. But you are not paying anything. I don't look at turkey at the deli in the grocery store, refuse to pay for it, then take it and enjoy it, then say it had the consistency of crap.

If you're not paying for the product then the manufacturer doesn't care about your opinions. And they know that you'll download the next one rather than buy it, so why try to appease?

Touche. Thing is, if I had bought this release, based on the sound quality I'd probably be taking it back to the store/seller and trying to get a refund...I know I'd probably be shit outta luck, but I'd try anyway :lol:

I think what he's trying to say - is that it would be nice if these tapes were in better hands. Carefully, lovingly transferred. So that no "fixing" after the fact has to be done. They're the ones releasing them to the masses, after all, show some pride in what you do. Even if it is a crime :D

That is what I was trying to say, you just happened to articulate my thoughts without my usual brand of righteous indignation added for good measure :lol:

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People cannot always assume that the people who purchase these boots are doing it for the sole reason of hearing the show. Many people who spend the money are perfectly happy with the way it sounds, and do not necessarily understand the term "brickwalled". Others buy it knowing full well they will remaster it for their own listening. I would wager a majority, in the 60% - 70% range, are fully aware that they can download the show but still choose to buy the bootleg.

I'd say close to 100% know they can DL, honiest you'd need to be living in a cave as a Zep live recording collector not to these days.

Edited by greenman

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Here's something I want a better perspective on.

Obviously there is (has been) a horde of soundboards. Either EVSD has the horde and leaks out two or three a year or, more likely, there is a source (or multiple sources) passing them on to EVSD.

The question for y'all: Do most of you assume that for the majority of remaining '75 and '77 "un-soundboarded" shows there are in fact soundboard recordings that will eventually see the light of day? I would think it more likely for '75.

Maybe '77 has been underrepresented with soundboards (I count 8, compared to 12 for U.S. '75) because there in fact aren't as many...but I'm probably just pissing in the wind.

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My ears tell me the tapes EVSD used for this release weren't even remotely close to the 'original masters'...

I dunno...it doesn't make sense that they would intentionally brickwall the first two discs, and then master the third relatively well.

Edited by Melcórë

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tmtomh did an awesome write up on birckwalling at RO the other day,


The loudest that any sound can be represented in the binary language of digital is all 1's. When viewing an audio waveform, this loudest possible amplitude is represented as 0.0 (with everything else being represented as a negative number, e.g. -0.1 would be almost the maximum loudness, while -6.5, for example, would be a good deal quieter).

Brickwalling is when music (or any sound waveform) is turned up so much that the louder parts exceed 0.0 - in other words, they become louder than can possibly be represented digitally. When that happens, the music "clips," it distorts. All the sounds that should be above 0.0 get truncated to 0.0. It's as if the natural peaks of the waveform have been given a "buzzcut" haircut, or have come up against a "brick wall."

Here's a particularly egregious example:

i10_1.gif

Strictly speaking, brickwalling is separate from compression - compression being turning up the softer parts (or turning down the louder parts, or both) in order to reduce the contrast in volume between soft and loud. However, in practice, brickwalling is rarely used without compression. The engineer (often at the instruction of the producer and/or the artist) will compress everything to make the soft parts relatively louder, and then turn the entire thing up to make it all sit as close to 0.0 as possible.


It can't really be fixed, but it's effects can be diminished through declipping and equalizing.

Edited by Glyn

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Fascinating, thanks for that very erudite explanation.

Well, erudite is our middle name around these parts, motherfuckers!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

I dunno...it doesn't make sense that they would intentionally brickwall the first two discs, and then master the third relatively well.

I know, doesn't make a lick of sense at all...and it's not like it isn't a noticeable difference between discs 1, 2 and 3 or anything, 'cos it is...makes ya wonder if they're gonna fix it in the next batch or send out replacement discs 1 & 2 if enough people bitch loud enough about it :lol:, they've done it for other disc glitches in the past, so who knows?

Edited by Nutrocker

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I know, doesn't make a lick of sense at all...and it's not like it isn't a noticeable difference between discs 1, 2 and 3 or anything, 'cos it is...makes ya wonder if they're gonna fix it in the next batch or send out replacement discs 1 & 2 if enough people bitch loud enough about it :lol:, they've done it for other disc glitches in the past, so who knows?

Possibly. I've read cynical posts in the past where people think they'll re-release the shows eventually, featuring better mastering/less clipping...but I dunno. Guess we'll wait and see!

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i want to say it again. the brickwalling happened before EVSD probably even knew about these tapes. not saying EV didn't amplify them and maybe made it slightly worse. just saying they were already distorted and clipping occurred a long time before hand. the clipping wasn't caused by EVSD. don't expect a bootleg company to remaster the damn thing for you, anyways.

speculation :bubble:

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i want to say it again. the brickwalling happened before EVSD probably even knew about these tapes. not saying EV didn't amplify them and maybe made it slightly worse. just saying they were already distorted and clipping occurred a long time before hand. the clipping wasn't caused by EVSD. don't expect a bootleg company to remaster the damn thing for you, anyways.

speculation :bubble:

FWIW brickwalling is a result of overamplified digital mastering, it has nothing to do with the tapes themselves but rather how they were digitally transferred and mastered. Nowadays damn near all 'new' music is brickwalled...it's a direct result of the prevailing "LOUDER = BETTER" attitude of the mp3/iPod generation. And it is almost exclusively a malady afflicted to digital music...any analog sourced music generally will not be brickwalled, even in its digital medium...unless the analog source was digitally mastered too hot. Mastering to 0db is not necessary...-6db and yer good to go.

EVSD releases have been victims of the Loudness Wars (as they are called in audiophilespeak) for a few years now.

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Personally I can give a fuck less about brickwalling. I'm not an audiophile. I'm fine with the EVSD version I have.

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Personally I can give a fuck less about brickwalling. I'm not an audiophile. I'm fine with the EVSD version I have.

I'm with you. I'm just gonna enjoy this for what it is - a new soundboard of the mighty Zeppelin.

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FWIW brickwalling is a result of overamplified digital mastering, it has nothing to do with the tapes themselves but rather how they were digitally transferred and mastered. Nowadays damn near all 'new' music is brickwalled...it's a direct result of the prevailing "LOUDER = BETTER" attitude of the mp3/iPod generation. And it is almost exclusively a malady afflicted to digital music...any analog sourced music generally will not be brickwalled, even in its digital medium...unless the analog source was digitally mastered too hot. Mastering to 0db is not necessary...-6db and yer good to go.

EVSD releases have been victims of the Loudness Wars (as they are called in audiophilespeak) for a few years now.

I guess what I should have said is that the sound board can cause the distorting of music, hence a tape recorded lined out from the board could record the distorted feed. Maybe I am thinking about a completely different subject. Yes, EVSD did participate in the loudness wars, but it is not that bad for non-audio freak to listen to IF the tape wasn't distorted at the board. Both EVSD's Double Shot and King's of the Stone Age are brick walled, only one release (the new one) is flat out distorted. Another example is how HTWWW is brickwalled to fuck but had little noticeable distorting (to my ears). No dynamics though.

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can't wait for the proper remaster by beelz..the right brickwalling..sorry mr Nutrocker

The 'proper' remaster from beelz? :lol: What, you mean some guy in his mum's basement who downloads the shows off torrent sites then fucks around with the recordings using free audio editing software, burns his 'work' onto CDRs then sells them for the same price EVSD or Godfather does? :lol: :lol: :lol: Gimme a fuckin' break...the 'beelz' is nuthin' but a goddamn bargain basement bootlegger who buys off once reputable LZ sites like Underground Uprising with free copies of his stuff, so that they can treat his work like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread :lol::rolleyes:

Say...yer not him, are ya, Mr 'Zepplin'69?

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Say...yer not him, are ya, Mr 'Zepplin'69?

"and it makes me wonder..."

see stuff like this on this site all the time! stuff that REALLY makes me wonder...

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I smell yet another fight!

:popcorn2:

What, a eight post newbie -at least half of whose posts make some kinda reference to the Beezlebub label, by the way- who can't even spell the fucking name of the band right (even though it's right at the top of the page :lol: ) against yers truly? Folks, it's safe to say that if it were to come down to a battle of wits between me and Mr Zepplin69 I'd say he is hopelessly unarmed :lol: ...notice how he's had all fuckin' day to respond to my question yet is nowhere to be found? I'd be brazen to say that that's answer enough, people.

Sorry, anybody who supports and/or defends the likes of Beezlebub Records when it is well known what the "Beez" is all about is certainly not someone who is even remotely serious about their bootleg collection...amateurs and wannabes, that's who "The Beez" caters to...and the Beez oughta know, he's enough of an amateur/wannabe himself... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited by Nutrocker

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