Introduction To LZ Soundboards 101

[jabe]

The above thread and me still celebrating Canada Day led me to starting this thread.

Do Jimmy Page and other band members possess the soundboards from all of the 1977 tour?

[pottedplant]

This seems to be one of those Great Mysteries of the Universe.

[jabe]

What I'd like, is make this a semester course.

Where a forum memeber could pose a soundboard question to a person familiar with the process and/or educated speculation from a different angle.

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When a soundboard tape was made, was it one master copy, or could multiple copies be made at the same time?

[Nutrocker]

The above thread and me still celebrating Canada Day led me to starting this thread.

Why are you celebrating Canada Day? I thought you were in Birmingham 'Bama...or are you up here visiting Canucklehead land...did you bring the goddamn heat with you?

Do Jimmy Page and other band members possess the soundboards from all of the 1977 tour?

I dunno if Page or anyone else actually connected to Zeppelin does, but I'm almost inclined to think that somebody out there does...or that could just be wishful thinking on my part, mind ya...

What I'd like, is make this a semester course.

Where a forum memeber could pose a soundboard question to a person familiar with the process and/or educated speculation from a different angle.

*********************************************************************

When a soundboard tape was made, was it one master copy, or could multiple copies be made at the same time?

Now that is an innaresting question...I don't think more than one copy could be made directly from the soundboard at one time, unless they had multiple tape decks hooked up to the board (which I doubt, though I think it's at least possible) but I don't see why copies couldn't be made off of the master just like any other cassette, reel to reel or 8 track tape after the fact. Generational differences in the tape source could at least partly explain -in theory- why some soundboard recordings sound clearer than others (contrast the sound quality of the 25/5/77 SBD with 30/5/77, for example)

[Glyn]

Generational differences in the tape source could at least partly explain -in theory- why some soundboard recordings sound clearer than others (contrast the sound quality of the 25/5/77 SBD with 30/5/77, for example)

I wonder how often the deck was cleaned (if ever) and if they used the same kind of tape night after night. Both of those could effect the quality of the recording. Changing levels on the board, moving mics, all of that stuff could change the sound.

Multiple copies could be possible. I remember reading an interview from someone who plugged a reel recorder in and hid it under the board. If Page was recording that night as well, there would be two board sources. I'll go ahead and look for that quote.

Edit: Having trouble finding it at the moment, will continue to look.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Glyn

[Sue Dounim]

why some soundboard recordings sound clearer than others (contrast the sound quality of the 25/5/77 SBD with 30/5/77, for example)

Or more so 5/21 and 5/28

[Nutrocker]

I wonder how often the deck was cleaned (if ever) and if they used the same kind of tape night after night. Both of those could effect the quality of the recording. Changing levels on the board, moving mics, all of that stuff could change the sound.

Very true, it's a no brainer that cleaner heads = cleaner sound. Better quality tape also equals better quality sound (these things I recall from my days mucking about with my old 4 and 8 track cassette recorders, which I still have around here somewhere...)

Multiple copies could be possible. I remember reading an interview from someone who plugged a reel recorder in and hid it under the board. If Page was recording that night as well, there would be two board sources. I'll go ahead and look for that quote.

As long as the mixing board had enough output jacks to accommodate multiple recorders it is very possible. Shit, I can think of a couple of soundboard recordings that have made it out to the masses because the engineers themselves recorded off the board (matter of fact, I believe this is how 27/4/77 got out)

[Nutrocker]

Or more so 5/21 and 5/28

Sure, that's an even better comparison, actually (and I still think Houston is overall the best sounding '77 SBD thus far)

[chillumpuffer]

The above thread and me still celebrating Canada Day led me to starting this thread.

Do Jimmy Page and other band members possess the soundboards from all of the 1977 tour?

One would assume that as the band had never released a live album (at that time), chances are all of the shows in 77 were recorded. In fact I would go as far to say that JP may have many shows the band did in their career. How The West Was Won was as we know was recorded in 72, Southampton 1973 was professionally recorded and I reckon some of the Japan shows of 71 & 72 were also recorded. Would love to hear some of those, that's for sure

[jabe]

That's kinda my line of thinking chillumpuffer.

Jimmy would have quite a stash from the band's career.

My naive way of thinking would have the crew give Jimmy the tapes and that would be it, since they would be under contract I guess, with the band. Seems like Grant would've kicked some ass over this.

So who copies the soundboards and when, and sits on them for all these years and then sells them at a snails pace to the eventual distributors? I mean, wouldn't these guys be in their 70's at least?

The whole Led Zeppelin soundboard thing is pretty damn intriguing.

[greenman]

I have always had the impression that there were really two categories of SB sources, firstly though that give complete or near complete shows from the US tours and euro 80 then the often more fragmentary recordings and video sources.

The first kind of sources seem to come out in a more regular fashion from the same labels(EV today) making me think there coming from whoever now has Page's stolen SB's. The second coming out in a far more haphazard fashion and make me think there coming from lots of different sources outside that cach.

Edited July 3, 2013 by greenman

[jabe]

I have always had the impression that there were really two categories of SB sources, firstly though that give complete or near complete shows from the US tours and euro 80 then the often more fragmentary recordings and video sources.

The first kind of sources seem to come out in a more regular fashion from the same labels(EV today) making me think there coming from whoever now has Page's stolen SB's. The second coming out in a far more haphazard fashion and make me think there coming from lots of different sources outside that cach.

In the SteveAJones Mystery Thread, Steve recently said that 1980 SBs were clearly stolen, but the full extent may never be known.

I would think the perp would have walked away with the whole inventory, provided they weren't scattered in different areas of Page's estate. Then I wonder if they would have sold them all in a "package" deal to the distributors, or sell one or two at a time. Interesting how it seems to be regulated...

[Nutrocker]

One would assume that as the band had never released a live album (at that time), chances are all of the shows in 77 were recorded. In fact I would go as far to say that JP may have many shows the band did in their career. How The West Was Won was as we know was recorded in 72, Southampton 1973 was professionally recorded and I reckon some of the Japan shows of 71 & 72 were also recorded. Would love to hear some of those, that's for sure

There may be soundboards for all the '77 shows, but NONE of them were recorded via multitrack, which would the basis for an official live album...Page has spoken in the past that they were planning on multitracking and filming (!) some of the post-Oakland '77 shows but of course those gigs were all cancelled...

My naive way of thinking would have the crew give Jimmy the tapes and that would be it, since they would be under contract I guess, with the band. Seems like Grant would've kicked some ass over this.

So who copies the soundboards and when, and sits on them for all these years and then sells them at a snails pace to the eventual distributors? I mean, wouldn't these guys be in their 70's at least?

The whole Led Zeppelin soundboard thing is pretty damn intriguing.

Yer way of thinking is not naive at all, Jabe...people have theorized for years that at the very least the plethora of '75 soundboards that have 'leaked out' were courtesy of none other than SHOWCO employees, so, in essence it was an 'inside job', as it were. Ditto for the Seattle '77 video- the last reel leaked out years before the rest of the show because it was swiped by a Kingdome employee because Peter Grant forgot to collect that bit of film. So, yeah, I'd be brazen to say that all this leaked soundboard and film footage was some sort of inside job.

And, yes, this is a very intriguing discussion, I'm loving it, as you can probably tell from my input...

where the hell do you get hold of these? (not downloading)

cheers

Once again, Google is yer friend, Henry...best not to ask those kinda questions on the official LZ forum discussing the particulars of these recordings is okay, asking where or how to acquire them is not.

[Glyn]

^Might be getting off topic, but the last reel of 77 video...is that the segment of the end of the show that circulates in almost crystal clear quality?

If not stolen from Pages home, certainly an inside job by a crew member. Something I just thought about. Depending on the rig they were taping with, some reel to reel recorders (and I guess cassette recorders too) have the ability to play back while recording (or at least pass through sound)...perhaps someone dubbed a copy while the original was being recorded via a headphone output?

And where do you get a hold of these? The physical tapes that is. If I could google my way into the private groups, I would

[Trapper]

This brings me to something I've been wondering about for some time now: why isn't any of the Seattle '77 footage (audio and/or image) used for an official live release? Sure; the sound- and image quality both isn't 10+, but with some digital techniques it could be made good enough for an official release, perhaps not a stand-alone dvd but surely for a bonus disc. Perhaps part of the upcoming Presence box-set??

[greenman]

In the SteveAJones Mystery Thread, Steve recently said that 1980 SBs were clearly stolen, but the full extent may never be known.

I would think the perp would have walked away with the whole inventory, provided they weren't scattered in different areas of Page's estate. Then I wonder if they would have sold them all in a "package" deal to the distributors, or sell one or two at a time. Interesting how it seems to be regulated...

The story was always that it was "revenge" for some slight they believed Page had given them or someone they knew wasn't it? I wouldn't be supprized if the actual theif sold them on pretty quickly not realising the value.

[Melcórë]

This brings me to something I've been wondering about for some time now: why isn't any of the Seattle '77 footage (audio and/or image) used for an official live release? Sure; the sound- and image quality both isn't 10+, but with some digital techniques it could be made good enough for an official release, perhaps not a stand-alone dvd but surely for a bonus disc. Perhaps part of the upcoming Presence box-set??

The video was used for an official release -- the "Whole Lotta Love" promo from the early-90s. It also showed up (in significantly better audio/visual quality than we have) on the MTV Rockumentary special about Led Zeppelin, from about the same time.

I wouldn't be surprised if we get either Seattle or Pontiac in some form with the boxes.

Do Jimmy Page and other band members possess the soundboards from all of the 1977 tour?

Ultimately, I don't know -- my gut tells me that only a few of the 1977 SBDs were stolen/leaked out over the years...Jimmy had access to the 1977.06.23 SBD at one time, if no longer.

[Nutrocker]

The story was always that it was "revenge" for some slight they believed Page had given them or someone they knew wasn't it? I wouldn't be supprized if the actual theif sold them on pretty quickly not realising the value.

IIRC Zurich was the first 1980 soundboard recording to make the rounds on bootleg back in the mid 80's. When the Zurich SBD was originally released, it created more than a few waves, and even then the general theory regarding its origins was that it was an inside job or part of that cache stolen from Jimmy Page. This became even more apparent as more of the '80 SBD's made their appearance, which begs yet another question: where are the Vienna and Munich soundboards, since of all the 1980 shows those two are the only ones missing...I mean even the Nuremberg gig, abandoned after only three songs, is available in SBD (but not audience, if I'm not mistaken...)

I wouldn't be surprised if we get either Seattle or Pontiac in some form with the boxes.

Ultimately, I don't know -- my gut tells me that only a few of the 1977 SBDs were stolen/leaked out over the years...Jimmy had access to the 1977.06.23 SBD at one time, if no longer.

If we don't get Seattle or Pontiac DVDs in these box sets, I could just as easily see an officially sanctioned Page/Shirley version of the 21/6/77 show, since they obviously have a copy of that in their possession as well (considering they used Mike Millard's audio of "The Song Remains The Same" on the 2003 DVD). I must admit I'm still skeptical that either the Seattle or Pontiac videos would get an official release, not only based on their less than perfect A / V quality, but because in Seattle's case it's a far from perfect performance -I mean, could you imagine Robert Plant allowing the thing being released when his voice audibly cracks during "Ten Years Gone"?- and as far as Pontiac goes, well, we still don't know for sure if the video still exists, do we?

I think yer gut may be right about how many '77 SBDs actually exist...Christ knows the bootleggers have put out a helluva lot less '77 SBDs than '75, that's for sure...

Edited July 3, 2013 by Nutrocker

[Melcórë]

If we don't get Seattle or Pontiac DVDs in these box sets, I could just as easily see an officially sanctioned Page/Shirley version of the 21/6/77 show, since they obviously have a copy of that in their possession as well (considering they used Mike Millard's audio of "The Song Remains The Same" on the 2003 DVD). I must admit I'm still skeptical that either the Seattle or Pontiac videos would get an official release, not only based on their less than perfect A / V quality, but because in Seattle's case it's a far from perfect performance -I mean, could you imagine Robert Plant allowing the thing being released when his voice audibly cracks during "Ten Years Gone"?- and as far as Pontiac goes, well, we still don't know for sure if the video still exists, do we?

I think yer gut may be right about how many '77 SBDs actually exist...Christ knows the bootleggers have put out a helluva lot less '77 SBDs than '75, that's for sure...

We'll have to wait and see...hopefully vanity doesn't win out, and we get some goodies, at least.

(If people don't get my second remark re: 1977 'boards: The man responsible for Jimmy's lasershow from 1977-1979 was given a SBD copy of the 1977.06.23 guitar/noise solo to take his cues from, in order to ready the lasers for Knebworth in 1979.)

It's possible that more 1977 'boards are out there...maybe they were hoarded? Time will tell.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Melcórë

[Triplet Kick]

Interesting question from the OP. From my limited knowledge of sound tapes, it's probable that most Zep SBDs up to 1975 were recorded on reel-to-reel tapes. Certainly, the sound quality of the '75 US Tour SBDs is so deep, rich and vibrant, that they almost certainly are not from cassettes.

The question is how did they get entire 3 hour shows without any cuts, unless two machines were being used. I'm happy to be wrong here, but wouldn't two machines be quite difficult for 1970s touring equipment where outputs might have been quite limited? Is there evidence of other bands using more than one tape machine in this way?

Plus, up until the 1980s or so, to record a live album usually required two mikes on everything, esp drums, so as to provide two complete and separate signals; one to the house PA, the other to the multitrack engineer. Plenty of photographic evidence for this latter point.

The few 1977 Zep SBDs do seem to come from cassette, esp when you compare them to the 1975 SDBs. There's generally more hiss, less depth and a shriller, tinnier sound overall. Likewise, the 1980 European tour SBDs appear to have been cassettes. Again, with both these cases, it's reasonable to assume these were 45-minute-per-side cassettes as that's when you tend to get a cut for a tape flip. And I'm not even getting into generational degradation of quality.

We're kinda spoiled by the glorious 1975 SBDs, even if one doesn't particularly like that tour. I haven't heard any other SBD that tops them. It's a shame that few, if any, other Zep tours have such good quality sounding SDBs. I find it hard to listen to anything else more than once if the sound quality ain't great - too rough on these auld ears. Some folk don't mind, but if it ain't close to the quality of a 1975 SDB, I tend to fuhgeddaboudit.

But hey, guess we should be thankful for anything, right? Right.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Triplet Kick

[ListenToThis]

The soundboards are not coming from Page or anyone in contact with him. He may indeed have copies (or originals) but he is not the source.

[Glyn]

From RO - what the soundboards were recorded on.

73 boards were recorded reel-reel (w/a terrible azimuth problem) and wow-flutter
75-reel-reel (flawless)
77-cassette
80-either put through DBX then played back without (pulsy muted shitful sound.some of the more recent ones are better)

As far as the time goes, there's a lot of variables. There are three probable speeds that you could record at; 3 3/4ips (inches per second), 7 1/2ips and 15ips. The faster the speed, the better the quality. There are also two probable reel sizes; 7 and 10 inch. Going even deeper than that, there's different lengths and thicknesses of tapes as well. You can get about an hour and a half out of both sides of a standard 1mil, 1800 foot, 7" reel at 7 1/2ips.

Are the boards complete or are some cut during "No Quarter?"

[mrledhed]

Every 1975 soundboard released so far is from a CASSETTE (likely C100). They might have been recorded on reels but the copies that EVSD has access to are cassettes. They flipped the reel tapes at 50-60 minutes and tried to minimize cuts within tracks like they did in 1973. Why they did not do this with 1977 (cuts within the song) bewilders me.

[Nutrocker]

Interesting question from the OP. From my limited knowledge of sound tapes, it's probable that most Zep SBDs up to 1975 were recorded on reel-to-

reel tapes. Certainly, the sound quality of the '75 US Tour SBDs is so deep, rich and vibrant, that they almost certainly are not from cassettes.

<snip>

But hey, guess we should be thankful for anything, right? Right.

Triplet, yer post nailed it, welcome to the discussion!

The soundboards are not coming from Page or anyone in contact with him. He may indeed have copies (or originals) but he is not the source.

I think that goes without saying

Are the boards complete or are some cut during "No Quarter?"

For '75 I know one of the Dallas SBDs (4 March?) only has about half of "No Quarter" before it cuts out. 1977? Every '77 SBD save for Houston has a cut in "No Quarter", right at the start of John Paul Jones' piano solo. Some of these cuts are mere seconds and are barely noticeable (also patched with the AUD sources) but 27/4/77 and 30/5/77 both have big cuts, missing most of the piano solo and 'boogie section' before Page's long solo. 30/5 is also patched with the AUD source but the bootleggers didn't do a very good job of it sound quality wise. Mind ya, quite a few '77 audience tapes have cuts in "No Quarter", some in roughly the same point in the song, which gives credence to the "45 minute" theory.

Every 1975 soundboard released so far is from a CASSETTE (likely C100). They might have been recorded on reels but the copies that EVSD has access to are cassettes. They flipped the reel tapes at 50-60 minutes and tried to minimize cuts within tracks like they did in 1973. Why they did not do this with 1977 (cuts within the song) bewilders me.

It is bewildering...every '77 SBD that has cuts has cuts roughly every 45 minutes...shortly into "No Quarter", "Bron Y Aur Stomp" and near the end of "Moby Dick". It is obvious that not as much care seemed to go into the soundboard tapes in 1977 (there are quite a few cuts in the 1980 soundboards as well) as had previously.

I'm addressing this to everyone taking part here: so in light of some of this info Glyn and Ledhed have passed on, is it fair to assume that no Zeppelin soundboard -at least from the '73-'80 era- circulates in anything lower than 1st gen (i.e. not from the master reel or cassettes)?

Edited July 5, 2013 by Nutrocker

[Glyn]

I knew one of the tours was consistently cut, thanks for the clarification.

I'm addressing this to everyone taking part here: so in light of some of this info Glyn and Ledhed have passed on, is it fair to assume that no Zeppelin soundboard -at least from the '73-'80 era- circulates in anything lower than 1st gen (i.e. not from the master reel or cassettes)?

This would appear to be correct.

The whole cassette/reel thing gets complicated when the master source is a cassette and then it's copied to a reel. Naturally the lineage only states Master -> Reel (1st gen)