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MLE

Rock Music

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I think "rock" music was truly defined and invented so to speak by Hendrix & Cream. Guitar based, driven by a heavy rhythm section balancing out the music overall. That would be my definition. Time signatures have nothing to do with it IMO.

Hendrix & Cream laid the ground work but Zeppelin perfected it and made it multi-dimensional.

Most of the contemporary stuff is shit because it has no passion, it's way too produced and manufactured sounding. The late 60's and the whole of the 70's was music's golden age, the best rock, rock & roll, country, dance, funk, fusion, all around the zenith for music in general.

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Hi again, MLE ... When I saw this a couple of days ago I thought, Jesus, that's a pretty sweeping question! But then I thought I could maybe limit my response to just a few remarks on a limited time-span. I really don't think there is a stable meaning here. It's ever changing, as I implied in my first response on this thread.

The history of rock has been pretty interesting. It was of course an American phenomenon to begin with. The musical background of Rock & Roll lies I think in a somewhat chaotic meeting of different strands of the extremely rich popular music traditions of America I am not really sure theres any point in trying to define that ........

^^^

Quote shortened for space

---------------------

Otto,

Very good condensed history of rock and roll!

:goodpost:

I will have to check out the Palmer book, was always a fan of his!

I am sort of taken aback a little whenever I re-watch "The Last Waltz", and how that year 1976, was a turning point for many.

The Band had toured for 16 years and were calling it quits! They had experienced sooooo much!

Rock had been going strong a long time by then!

We want to think it was just getting good in 76, truth is, the classic rock that we know and love was winding down... by 1980 it was a whole new game, what with Punk, Glam, Hair, Metal, and other genres going more mainstream!

And let's not forget the birth of MTV... Pop music's best friend!

That's when looks, personality and persona marketing began!

Fascinating stuff to think about the creativity of the 60's and 70's a very good time to be alive musically!!!

Gotta love rock and roll!!! :rollin:

Edited by Bayougal65

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Great stuff tonight! Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and contributions (especially you Otto Masson!), keep 'em comin'! Unfortunately, I'm pretty tired tonight and have a terrible neck ache (Ridiculously too stubborn to get a man to help me with heavy lifting! T.M.I, I'm sure.) so I will have more to say tomorrow!

But I'd like to bring Jimmy Page into this conversation (Well not literally, but hey, your thoughts are more than welcome here, Jimmy!):

"Well here it was, the famed Hollywood Bowl with it's history of spellbinding performances. For me, the first time to be playing it (neither Yardbirds nor Led Zeppelin had appeared here). The venue itself has quite a charm and is truly iconic and during this tour we were only to play this one show in LA. Imagine our dismay when we launched into a spirited version of Wanton Song to look to the audience and see the front row is empty, going back quite a distance. The missing persons managed to appear around the beginning of Ramble On. Yes, you've probably guessed it, LA: golden ticket, side of stage, champagne tents… unknown to me, we were now a commodity being sold on what I think of as a corporate ticket!"

What's he saying here...?

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Great stuff tonight! Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and contributions (especially you Otto Masson!), keep 'em comin'! Unfortunately, I'm pretty tired tonight and have a terrible neck ache (Ridiculously too stubborn to get a man to help me with heavy lifting! T.M.I, I'm sure.) so I will have more to say tomorrow!

But I'd like to bring Jimmy Page into this conversation (Well not literally, but hey, your thoughts are more than welcome here, Jimmy!):

What's he saying here...?

Jimmy is referring to the proliferation of using the first three to five rows of a venue for VIP's and the uber wealthy only. Back in the day ALL seats went on sale, first come first served whether that was camping overnight in line at the Ticketron to score those precious first row seats, or waiting in line at the venue to score first row seats at a general admission show.

It was much more democratic up until the early 90's, then the scene changed to what we have today. Virtually impossible to score those tickets unless you know someone, have mega cash, a celebrity, or the leader of a small African nation.

Edited by Sagittarius Rising

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^ WTF??? The Hells Angels are nothing but low life pieces of shit, meth dealing scumbags. What in great Ceasar's ghost does that shit have to do with Rock music???

You obviously don't know the history of the San Francisco rock scene in the 60's. I used to have that poster.

I doubt you'd say that to an Angels face now would you? :^) :injured:

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You obviously don't know the history of the San Francisco rock scene in the 60's. I used to have that poster.

I doubt you'd say that to an Angels face now would you? :^) :injured:

What the hell does that have to do with anything? I would not have told Al Capone he was a piece of shit because he was a fucking sociopath, that's called common sense. I guess I am the big pussy because I do not rape and pass around women and then kill the and dump them in the desert. I guess I am not a tough guy because I don't deal meth to 12 year olds. I guess I am a coward because I don't have a few hundred sociopathic shitheads backing me up during a drug deal.

Living in Phx off and on since 83' I have come into contact with several members of the Cave Creek chapter including Barger himself. My brother used to deal dope with the Angels back in the 80's so my history with them goes back a bit. Funny thing, most Angels when alone are pretty average guys, don't cause much trouble, however get them together and look out. In my book anyone who needs a group to back them up is not much of a man. I take care of my own shit and I don't start shit either, if that makes me a pussy, guilty as charged. On the other hand, Angel or not, I will not talk shit or cause problems with anyone, but if an Angel fucked with me, I would indeed defend myself and win or lose, that fucker would know for a fact he was in a fight.

I pity you the fact you consider these lowlifes anything but. A real man takes care of his family. A real man pays the bills through honest hard work. A real man does not sell drugs or pass around and abuse women.

There is a scene in Bronx Tale where Robert DeNiro's character tells his son that gangsters are really pussies because they take shortcuts, they exploit their fellow man. The working man is the real tough guy, the real hero because he does the right thing and works hard and provides for his family. That was one of the best lines in the movie and 100% spot on.

Edited by Sagittarius Rising

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I'm curious and would like to ask you all:

What comes to mind when you think 'rock music'?

Can you define what 'rock music' is? - Is it just a sound or is it something more...?

Where did it come from and why?

Rock and Roll, or Rock Music, derived from the early Music of the Blues, of the 1920's through to the 1950's. Robert Johnson, the King of the Delta Blues, was the innovator and the true King. When Mr. Johnson recorded His 29 songs with only an acoustic guitar, at that very moment History was truly born and luckily for Posterity (and Satan himself).

Of course, everyone's responses and opinions are subject to criticism and debate, but I would also say that Bill Haley and the Comets, "Rock Around the Clock" and many early "Rock" pioneers are responsible for the term, Rock Music.

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Very hard and subjective question to answer but I'll give it a go anyway.

Great thread by the way! :)

To me, rock music is a variety of music styles fusing together to produce something which strikes a chord in the listener's heart and which is memorable.

Rock music can mean different things to different people...what I find so damn fascinating about this particular genre is that it is constantly evolving. It can be anything from the Blues, 60's Garage Rock and Opera (yes! for instance "progressive rock bands" like Queen) to Doom Metal.

Edited by Kiwi_Zep_Fan87

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Trouble is with any " brand " of music starts off special and usually ends up shite You could argue were exactly rock music started ,,when did it loose the roll ? - Anyway you can't blame the likes of Def Leppard , Kiss or Rush on Chuck Berry . Little Richard or Led Zeppelin

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What the hell does that have to do with anything? I would not have told Al Capone he was a piece of shit because he was a fucking sociopath, that's called common sense. I guess I am the big pussy because I do not rape and pass around women and then kill the and dump them in the desert. I guess I am not a tough guy because I don't deal meth to 12 year olds. I guess I am a coward because I don't have a few hundred sociopathic shitheads backing me up during a drug deal.

Living in Phx off and on since 83' I have come into contact with several members of the Cave Creek chapter including Barger himself. My brother used to deal dope with the Angels back in the 80's so my history with them goes back a bit. Funny thing, most Angels when alone are pretty average guys, don't cause much trouble, however get them together and look out. In my book anyone who needs a group to back them up is not much of a man. I take care of my own shit and I don't start shit either, if that makes me a pussy, guilty as charged. On the other hand, Angel or not, I will not talk shit or cause problems with anyone, but if an Angel fucked with me, I would indeed defend myself and win or lose, that fucker would know for a fact he was in a fight.

I pity you the fact you consider these lowlifes anything but. A real man takes care of his family. A real man pays the bills through honest hard work. A real man does not sell drugs or pass around and abuse women.

There is a scene in Bronx Tale where Robert DeNiro's character tells his son that gangsters are really pussies because they take shortcuts, they exploit their fellow man. The working man is the real tough guy, the real hero because he does the right thing and works hard and provides for his family. That was one of the best lines in the movie and 100% spot on.

I was just saying that the Angels were/are involved in the rock scene, be it good or bad. I know they were bastards back in the day (60's) and my friend was beaten to a pulp by them once at a concert in the park. No one liked them and they proved that again at Altamont. What irks me about outlaw clubs these days is they still want to fight and kill each other to prove this or that. It's a tough scene for sure. My friend wanted me to prospect for them and I just kinda rolled my eyes like: Yeah, right! And I ain't calling you a pussy or coward man. You sound like you can handle yourself. But the Angels are everywhere these days and even though there's undercover infiltrators they'll never get rid of them. It just ain't gonna happen. Avoid at all costs I say. Up here I see a lot of the Bandidos and a Gypsy Joker or two. The Bandidos are based in Bellingham, WA I believe. I used to see Barger at Dron's HD in Oakland. I also bought a lot of parts from the Angels' shop in SF. They always treated me good and let me rummage through the parts bins. But like I said, the Angels are involved with the rock scene despite their reputation. By the way. 'A Bronx Tale' is one my fave movies.

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^ Sorry man, did not mean to get the vapors over this, mea culpa over my over-reaction. You are right, they did have a big impact on the rock scene of the 60's and if you get an Angel by themselves or maybe two in a congenial setting they are average, normal guys who are usually pretty nice and chill. I really look upon most Angels like I would wolves, alone they are fine, no problem, but get them in a pack and look out!

The whole Altamont deal, do you or anyone know the backstory to this? Why did they use the Angels for security? Who's idea was it? Did the insurance company sign off on this decision? Were the promoters ok with it? It just makes no sense why this was done, it's akin to hiring Backwater for a bounce-house security and then becoming surprised when little Jimmy gets tasered for chasing little Emily.

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Great stuff tonight! Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and contributions (especially you Otto Masson!), keep 'em comin'! Unfortunately, I'm pretty tired tonight and have a terrible neck ache (Ridiculously too stubborn to get a man to help me with heavy lifting! T.M.I, I'm sure.) so I will have more to say tomorrow!

But I'd like to bring Jimmy Page into this conversation (Well not literally, but hey, your thoughts are more than welcome here, Jimmy!):

What's he saying here...?

What concert was Page referring to? Was this with The Firm or Plant/Page? It's bad enough the high-and-mighty can score concert seats the rest of us can't but, they should at least have the decency to either show up on time for the concert or give their passes to people who will.

Edited by Disco Duck

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To Sagittarius Rising: The Rolling Stones used the London chapter of Hell's Angels for their Hyde Park concert in June 1969 with no problems. Obviously they felt using Hell's Angels for Altamont would be the same. They didn't account for two things...

1) The London Hell's Angels are a church choir compared to the Sonny Barger SF/Oakland Hell's Angels.

2) The massive amounts of bad acid and booze everyone was hopped up on.

To Disco Duck: The Firm never played the Hollywood Bowl. Jimmy was talking about the concert Page & Plant played at the Bowl in 1998 on the Walking into Clarksdale tour. It was a GREAT show, by the way, and we had great seats for it...one of the center boxes in the first row behind the pool pit. Jimmy played an amazing No Quarter!

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While rock music is still fertile, I think it‘s no exaggeration to say that this was a golden age – and the music is not likely to ever play a similar role again as it did in this period.

I wouldn't be so sure... ;)

Again, great post! One thing, what about the beatniks...?

So what you're saying is this golden age music blossomed, basically, out of rebellion? If that's the case, then where did the rebellion go...?

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I wouldn't be so sure... ;)

Again, great post! One thing, what about the beatniks...?

So what you're saying is this golden age music blossomed, basically, out of rebellion? If that's the case, then where did the rebellion go...?

Where all true rebellion goes: Underground.

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Jimmy is referring to the proliferation of using the first three to five rows of a venue for VIP's and the uber wealthy only. Back in the day ALL seats went on sale, first come first served whether that was camping overnight in line at the Ticketron to score those precious first row seats, or waiting in line at the venue to score first row seats at a general admission show.

It was much more democratic up until the early 90's, then the scene changed to what we have today. Virtually impossible to score those tickets unless you know someone, have mega cash, a celebrity, or the leader of a small African nation.

Ah, I see...thanks Sagittarius Rising. "...The scene changed..." - Can you explain how and why?

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Of course, everyone's responses and opinions are subject to criticism and debate, but I would also say that Bill Haley and the Comets, "Rock Around the Clock" and many early "Rock" pioneers are responsible for the term, Rock Music.

That's a popular thought/opinion, actually. I'm glad you brought up the point about the term 'rock and roll'. Pardon me, as I'm about to 'pull a Weslgarlic', because this all really is very interesting:

wikipedia.org

The alliterative phrase rocking and rolling was originally used by mariners at least as early as the 17th century, to describe the combined rocking (fore and aft) and rolling (side to side) motion of a ship on the ocean.[2] Examples include an 1821 reference, "...prevent her from rocking and rolling...",[3] and an 1835 reference to a ship "...rocking and rolling on both beam-ends".[4] As the term referred to movement forwards, backwards and from side to side, it acquired sexual connotations from early on; the sea shanty "Johnny Bowker" (or "Boker"), probably from the early nineteenth century, contains the lines "Oh do, my Johnny Bowker/ Come rock and roll me over".[5][6]

The hymn "Rocked in the Cradle of the Deep", with words written in the 1830s by Emma Willard and tune by Joseph Philip Knight,[7][8] was recorded several times around the start of the twentieth century, by the Original Bison City Quartet before 1894,[9] the Standard Quartette in 1895,[10] John W. Myers at about the same time,[11] and Gus Reed in 1908.[12] By that time, the specific phrase "rocking and rolling" was also used by African Americans in spirituals with a religious connotation.[citation needed] The earliest known recording of the phrase in use was on a 1904 Victor phonograph record, "The Camp Meeting Jubilee" by the Haydn Quartet,[13] with the words "We've been rockin' an' rolling in your arms/ Rockin' and rolling in your arms/ Rockin' and rolling in your arms/ In the arms of Moses." Another version was issued on the Little Wonder record label in 1916. "Rocking" was also used to describe the spiritual rapture felt by worshippers at certain religious events, and to refer to the rhythm often found in the accompanying music.[2]

At the same time, the terminology was used in secular contexts, for example to describe the motion of railroad trains. It has been suggested that it was also used by men building railroads, who would sing to keep the pace, swinging their hammers down to drill a hole into the rock, and the men who held the steel spikes would "rock" the spike back and forth to clear rock or "roll", twisting it to improve the "bite" of the drill.[14] "Rocking" and "rolling" were also used, both separately and together, in a sexual context; writers for hundreds of years had used the phrases "They had a roll in the hay" or "I rolled her in the clover".[15]

By the early twentieth century the words were increasingly used together in secular black slang with a double meaning, ostensibly referring to dancing and partying, but often with the subtextual meaning of sex.[16][17]

In 1922, blues singer Trixie Smith recorded "My Man Rocks Me (With One Steady Roll)," first featuring the two words in a secular context.[18] Although it was played with a backbeat and was one of the first "around the clock" lyrics, this slow minor-key blues was by no means "rock and roll" in the later sense.[19] However, the terms "rocking", and "rocking and rolling", were increasingly used through the 1920s and 1930s, especially but not exclusively by black secular musicians, to refer to either dancing or sex, or both. In 1927, blues singer Blind Blake used the couplet "Now we gonna do the old country rock / First thing we do, swing your partners" in "West Coast Blues", which in turn formed the basis of "Old Country Rock" by William Moore the following year.[20] Also in 1927, traditional country musician Uncle Dave Macon, with his group the Fruit Jar Drinkers, recorded "Sail Away Ladies" with a refrain of "Don't she rock, daddy-o", and "Rock About My Saro Jane".[21]Duke Ellington recorded "Rockin' In Rhythm" in 1928, and Robinson's Knights Of Rest recorded "Rocking and Rolling" in 1930.[2]

In 1932, the phrase "rock and roll" was heard in the Hal Roach film Asleep in the Feet.[citation needed] In 1934, the Boswell Sisters had a pop hit with "Rock and Roll" from the film Transatlantic Merry-Go-Round,[22][23] where the term was used to describe the motion of a ship at sea.[24] In 1935, Henry "Red" Allen recorded "Get Rhythm in Your Feet and Music in Your Soul" which included the lyric, "If Satan starts to hound you, commence to rock and roll / Get rhythm in your feet..." The lyrics were written by the prolific composer J. Russel Robinson with Bill Livingston. Allen's recording was a "race" record on the Vocalion label, but the tune was quickly covered by white musicians, notably Benny Goodman with singer Helen Ward.[citation needed]

Other notable recordings using the words, both released in 1938, were "Rock It For Me" by Chick Webb, a swing number with Ella Fitzgerald on vocals featuring the lyrics "...Won't you satisfy my soul, With the rock and roll?"; and "Rock Me" by Sister Rosetta Tharpe, a gospel song originally written by Thomas Dorsey as "Hide Me In Thy Bosom". Tharpe performed the song in the style of a city blues, with secular lyrics, ecstatic vocals and electric guitar.[25] She changed Dorsey's "singing" to "swinging," and the way she rolled the "R" in "rock me" led to the phrase being taken as a double entendre, interpretable as religious or sexual.[26]

The following year, Western swing musician Buddy Jones recorded "Rockin' Rollin' Mama", which drew on the term's original meaning – "Waves on the ocean, waves in the sea/ But that gal of mine rolls just right for me/ Rockin' rollin' mama, I love the way you rock and roll". In August 1939, Irene Castle devised a new dance called "The Castle Rock and Roll", described as "an easy swing step", which she performed at the Dancing Masters of America convention at the Hotel Astor.[27] The Marx Brothers' 1941 film The Big Store featured actress Virginia O'Brien singing a song starting out as a traditional lullaby which soon changes into a rocking boogie-woogie with lines like "Rock, rock, rock it, baby..."'. Although the song was only a short comedy number, it contains references which, by then, would have been understood by a wide general audience.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, an early use of the word "rock" in describing a style of music was in a review in Metronome magazine on July 21, 1938, which stated that "Harry James' "Lullaby in Rhythm" really rocks."[28] In 1939, a review of "Ciribiribin" and "Yodelin' Jive" by the Andrews Sisters with Bing Crosby, in the journal The Musician, stated that the songs "...rock and roll with unleashed enthusiasm tempered to strict four-four time".[29]

By the early 1940s, the term "rock and roll" was also being used in record reviews by Billboard journalist and columnist Maurie Orodenker. In the May 30, 1942, issue, for instance, he described Sister Rosetta Tharpe's vocals, on a re-recording of "Rock Me" with Lucky Millinder's band, as "rock-and-roll spiritual singing",[30] and on October 3, 1942, he described Count Basie's "It's Sand, Man!" as "an instrumental screamer.. [which].. displays its rock and roll capacities when tackling the righteous rhythms."[31] In the April 25, 1945 edition, Orodenker described Erskine Hawkins' version of "Caldonia" as "right rhythmic rock and roll music", a phrase precisely repeated in his 1946 review of "Sugar Lump" by Joe Liggins.[32][33]

A double, ironic, meaning came to popular awareness in 1947 in blues artist Roy Brown's song "Good Rocking Tonight", covered in 1948 by Wynonie Harris in a wilder version, in which "rocking" was ostensibly about dancing but was in fact a thinly-veiled allusion to sex. Such double-entendres were well established in blues music but were new to the radio airwaves. After the success of "Good Rocking Tonight" many other R&B artists used similar titles through the late 1940s. At least two different songs with the title "Rock and Roll" were recorded in the late 1940s: by Paul Bascomb in 1947, and Wild Bill Moore in 1948.[34] In May 1948, Savoy Records advertised "Robbie-Dobey Boogie" by Brownie McGhee with the tagline "It jumps, it's made, it rocks, it rolls."[35] Another record where the phrase was repeated throughout the song was "Rock and Roll Blues", recorded in 1949 by Erline "Rock and Roll" Harris.[36]

These songs were generally classed as "race music" or, from the late 1940s, "rhythm and blues", and were barely known by mainstream white audiences. However, in 1951, Cleveland, Ohio disc jockey Alan Freed began broadcasting rhythm, blues, and country music for a multi-racial audience. Freed, familiar with the music of earlier decades, used the phrase rock and roll to describe the music he aired over station WJW (850 AM); its use is also credited to Freed's sponsor, record store owner Leo Mintz, who encouraged Freed to play the music on the radio.[1][37] Originally Freed used the name "Moondog" for himself and any concerts or promotions he put on, because he used as his regular theme music a piece called "Moondog Symphony" by the street musician Louis "Moondog" Hardin. Hardin subsequently sued Freed on grounds that he was stealing his name and, since Freed was no longer allowed to use the term Moondog, he needed a new catchphrase. After a night of heavy drinking he and his friends came up with the name The Rock and Roll Party since he was already using the phrase Rock and Roll Session to describe the music he was playing.[citation needed] As his show became extremely popular, the term caught on and became widely used to describe the style of music.

Edited by MLE

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You could argue were exactly rock music started ,,when did it loose the roll ?

No, I think we're all 'roll' and no 'rock' now...

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^ Sorry man, did not mean to get the vapors over this, mea culpa over my over-reaction. You are right, they did have a big impact on the rock scene of the 60's and if you get an Angel by themselves or maybe two in a congenial setting they are average, normal guys who are usually pretty nice and chill. I really look upon most Angels like I would wolves, alone they are fine, no problem, but get them in a pack and look out!

The whole Altamont deal, do you or anyone know the backstory to this? Why did they use the Angels for security? Who's idea was it? Did the insurance company sign off on this decision? Were the promoters ok with it? It just makes no sense why this was done, it's akin to hiring Backwater for a bounce-house security and then becoming surprised when little Jimmy gets tasered for chasing little Emily.

Hey, that's ok. I know a lot of people see them as scum. Their creed was and I'm sure probably still is: 'All for one and all on one!' Meaning that if someone asks for trouble then the whole pack descends on them, as you said, 'like wolves.' I don't know if you'd want to read 'Freewheelin' Frank' by Frank Reynolds who was an Angel in San Francisco and it pretty much tells how they were back then and I think that Hunter Thompson's book pales in comparison. I've worked construction with Angels who were mostly out of Sacramento and never really had a problem with them. But I know that just below the surface anything could happen. I haven't really delved into Altamont that much and I guess I know what most people have heard that the Stones paid them $500 in beer to be 'security' for them. Well, you've seen the results of that and they accused Jagger of this and that and made him a marked man in their eyes. But Jagger's still around so maybe it was all bluster. I was just across the bay when that happened and I had no idea then where Altamont was and I thank the Gods I wasn't there. I know the guy who was stabbed did have a revolver pulled and pretty much sealed his own fate.

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Very hard and subjective question to answer but I'll give it a go anyway.

Great thread by the way! :)

To me, rock music is a variety of music styles fusing together to produce something which strikes a chord in the listener's heart and which is memorable.

Thanks, Kiwi_Zep_Fan87. So, if you believe that 'rock music' strikes a chord in the listener's heart then there is a spirit/soul to it...?

Also, in your opinion, do you think 'rock music' strikes a different chord in the heart than other genres of music?

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^^^

To be fair to Meredith Hunter, he was a black man with a white girlfriend in the process of getting beaten to death by pool-stick weilding Hell's Angels. I'd say he had a pretty good reason for pulling a gun and trying to defend himself.

Isn't that what everyone praised George Zimmerman for?

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^^^

To be fair to Meredith Hunter, he was a black man with a white girlfriend in the process of getting beaten to death by pool-stick weilding Hell's Angels. I'd say he had a pretty good reason for pulling a gun and trying to defend himself.

Isn't that what everyone praised George Zimmerman for?

Well that I hadn't heard about Hunter. Any film of the Angels attacking him with pool sticks?

I always have to laugh when Jerry Garcia and Phil Lesh 'just couldn't believe' the Angels were beating people up. :blink:

Edited by redrum

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