Rock Music

[Strider]

^^^

Uh yeah...haven't you seen "Gimmie Shelter"?

[MLE]

Does anybody have thoughts on this one...?

[redrum]

^^^

Uh yeah...haven't you seen "Gimmie Shelter"?

I saw the movie but I don't remember them attacking him with poolsticks. You just can't tell in that clip either what the scuffle was about.

But you know the Angels are pretty much racists anyway.

Sorry for going off on this tangent MLE.

[Strider]

I saw the movie but I don't remember them attacking him with poolsticks. You just can't tell in that clip either what the scuffle was about.

But you know the Angels are pretty much racists anyway.

Sorry for going off on this tangent MLE.

Don't worry about the tangent, redrum. Rock and roll isn't something that you can quantify and teach from a book like a school course, which is why half these questions are meaningless in the end. As Frank Zappa would say, talking(writing) about music is like dancing about architecture.

Besides, from what everyone is saying, MLE from Tokyo is really Del from America. Maybe so, maybe not.

As for Meredith Hunter, it's not just "Gimmie Shelter"...I've read scores of eyewitnesses accounts including one from his girlfriend and it's pretty clear the Angels were after him.

[MLE]

Sorry for going off on this tangent MLE.

No apologies necessary.

[MLE]

which is why half these questions are meaningless in the end.

Besides, from what everyone is saying, MLE from Tokyo is really Del from America. Maybe so, maybe not.

GEEZ..."Meaningless"...WOW. It bothers me none that someone like yourself, who has contributed next to nothing to this thread, has insulted it, but what an insult to the posters here who have actually had the courage to say what they feel and think about rock music.

And, I'm not from Tokyo...don't know why you or anyone else would think that, or be talking about it for that matter, nor do I really care. Also, I appreciate the offer, but I don't need you to play back-seat OP. Thanks.

"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

[Sagittarius Rising]

Ah, I see...thanks Sagittarius Rising. "...The scene changed..." - Can you explain how and why?

A few things changed the scene and it was a gradual change at first. The Zeppelin riot at Tampa in 77', the Who stampede in Cincinnati which killed 11 people, and a few other disasters in the early 80's put an end to general admission at most large venue concerts. Then the REAL, very sudden change came in 94' with the fucking Eagles! The FUCKING EAGLES MAN!!! They proved people were stupid enough to pay $100+ for concert tickets (me included) en masse. Before this show you could have seen a reformed Beatles with Julian Lennon (assuming they would have done this of course) for $25. But seriously folks, up until that fucking tour, the biggest acts in rock were charging between $20 & $25 a ticket. I think the Plant concert in 93' was about $19 a ticket. Madonna was going for about $22, and the absolute hottest act at the time, Nirvana, were getting about $22 per ticket.

The Eagles changed the whole concert landscape in one, huge swoop. They were also one of the first acts to reserve the first four or five rows for VIP's and uber-rich types willing to spend $1,000 per ticket. After that the flood gates were open and that money tree began to sprout like a mighty oak. Shit, I was going to go see Heart a few years back and their tickets STARTED at $100 a pop and they did not even have an album out!

Fuck you Don Henley & Glenn Frey, fuck you both very much!!!

[Strider]

A few things changed the scene and it was a gradual change at first. The Zeppelin riot at Tampa in 77', the Who stampede in Cincinnati which killed 11 people, and a few other disasters in the early 80's put an end to general admission at most large venue concerts. Then the REAL, very sudden change came in 94' with the fucking Eagles! The FUCKING EAGLES MAN!!! They proved people were stupid enough to pay $100+ for concert tickets (me included) en masse. Before this show you could have seen a reformed Beatles with Julian Lennon (assuming they would have done this of course) for $25. But seriously folks, up until that fucking tour, the biggest acts in rock were charging between $20 & $25 a ticket. I think the Plant concert in 93' was about $19 a ticket. Madonna was going for about $22, and the absolute hottest act at the time, Nirvana, were getting about $22 per ticket.

The Eagles changed the whole concert landscape in one, huge swoop. They were also one of the first acts to reserve the first four or five rows for VIP's and uber-rich types willing to spend $1,000 per ticket. After that the flood gates were open and that money tree began to sprout like a mighty oak. Shit, I was going to go see Heart a few years back and their tickets STARTED at $100 a pop and they did not even have an album out!

Fuck you Don Henley & Glenn Frey, fuck you both very much!!!

Don't forget the banks and the credit card companies role in all this; most concerts now have separate seating and on-sale dates for the various Platinum, Gold, Black, Tinfoil levels of credit cards, which allow the holders of such a card first access to seats. It is all a part of the corporization of rock that began with Woodstock. This is what Jimmy Page was railing about in that quote MLE posted.

Although, it's hard to believe Jimmy hadn't noticed the creeping corporate atmosphere of rock concerts before that.

Actually, while the Eagles were a defining moment in the gouging of rock fans, grumblings about tickets have been going on since Ralph Gleason railed against the prices of the Rolling Stones 1969 Tour. Ticketron was the evil bastard in the 1970s...Ticketmaster didn't yet exist. Trying to get tickets for the 1972 Rolling Stones tour was such a clusterfuck disaster, some bands decided to sell tickets by mail-order, thinking it would be a more fair and equitable system. That's how tix were sold for Led Zeppelin's 1975 tour...at least, in Los Angeles.

Things really came to a head in 1976 with the Wings Over America tour. This was Paul McCartney's first tour since the Beatles '66 tour. Demand was at a fever pitch and once again, the average fan got jacked...not so much by the price, which was reasonable, but by the lack of tickets to the average punter. If you were lucky to get a ticket, it was probably a nose-bleed. I was way up in the Forum's Colonnade...I had to decide whether I wanted to spend the money to get a better seat through one of the many Ticket Brokers that dot the landscape in Southern California. This was the tipping point in many people's minds...it was always tough to get front row seats to Los Angeles shows through normal means, but with the Paul McCartney '76 tour, it suddenly became near impossible to even get loge seating even if you were in the beginning of the line.

So many angry people complained that the LA Times even wrote a huge article that year about the problem. Why were people told no floor seats were available when tix went on sale yet all the Ticket Brokers had floor seats and were advertising them in the newspapers? Of course, the lawmakers did nothing...every time the California legislature has attempted to fix the concert ticket problem and make scalping illegal, the ticket broker/Ticketron/Ticketmaster/Clear Channel lobbyists flood the politicians with money and they do nothing.

From the Rolling Stones to Led Zeppelin to Paul McCartney to Bruce Springsteen to Pearl Jam to Radiohead...getting good seats has always been a problem, especially in a city like Los Angeles, and some bands have tried various ways to beat the scalpers. I'm guessing they don't have this problem in Wyoming or Wisconsin.

I have my own way, which I have already shared numerous times on the forum. But until they outlaw the Ticket Brokers who resell the tickets they get underhanded from Ticketmaster and Live Nation, it'll be a constant problem.

[pottedplant]

Don't forget the banks and the credit card companies role in all this; most concerts now have separate seating and on-sale dates for the various Platinum, Gold, Black, Tinfoil levels of credit cards, which allow the holders of such a card first access to seats. It is all a part of the corporization of rock that began with Woodstock. This is what Jimmy Page was railing about in that quote MLE posted.

Although, it's hard to believe Jimmy hadn't noticed the creeping corporate atmosphere of rock concerts before that.

Actually, while the Eagles were a defining moment in the gouging of rock fans, grumblings about tickets have been going on since Ralph Gleason railed against the prices of the Rolling Stones 1969 Tour. Ticketron was the evil bastard in the 1970s...Ticketmaster didn't yet exist. Trying to get tickets for the 1972 Rolling Stones tour was such a clusterfuck disaster, some bands decided to sell tickets by mail-order, thinking it would be a more fair and equitable system. That's how tix were sold for Led Zeppelin's 1975 tour...at least, in Los Angeles.

Things really came to a head in 1976 with the Wings Over America tour. This was Paul McCartney's first tour since the Beatles '66 tour. Demand was at a fever pitch and once again, the average fan got jacked...not so much by the price, which was reasonable, but by the lack of tickets to the average punter. If you were lucky to get a ticket, it was probably a nose-bleed. I was way up in the Forum's Colonnade...I had to decide whether I wanted to spend the money to get a better seat through one of the many Ticket Brokers that dot the landscape in Southern California. This was the tipping point in many people's minds...it was always tough to get front row seats to Los Angeles shows through normal means, but with the Paul McCartney '76 tour, it suddenly became near impossible to even get loge seating even if you were in the beginning of the line.

So many angry people complained that the LA Times even wrote a huge article that year about the problem. Why were people told no floor seats were available when tix went on sale yet all the Ticket Brokers had floor seats and were advertising them in the newspapers? Of course, the lawmakers did nothing...every time the California legislature has attempted to fix the concert ticket problem and make scalping illegal, the ticket broker/Ticketron/Ticketmaster/Clear Channel lobbyists flood the politicians with money and they do nothing.

From the Rolling Stones to Led Zeppelin to Paul McCartney to Bruce Springsteen to Pearl Jam to Radiohead...getting good seats has always been a problem, especially in a city like Los Angeles, and some bands have tried various ways to beat the scalpers. I'm guessing they don't have this problem in Wyoming or Wisconsin.

I have my own way, which I have already shared numerous times on the forum. But until they outlaw the Ticket Brokers who resell the tickets they get underhanded from Ticketmaster and Live Nation, it'll be a constant problem.

Thanks for the info Strider. Things aren't quite so messy here in NOLA.

[Disco Duck]

I suspect what annoyed Page about the Hollywood Bowl concert was the front row ticket holders' nonchalance. They were more interested in schmoozing and being seen than in the music. Otherwise their butts would have been in their seats when the concert began.

Question for Strider: Did Paul McCartney ever tour with Wings?

[toutpleindamour]

I live in Tokyo and can vouch that I never met this lady MLE. Since it is such a small village here and everybody know everybody, her words ring true. Not that anyone should care anyway, as rightly mentioned.

GEEZ..."Meaningless"...WOW. It bothers me none that someone like yourself, who has contributed next to nothing to this thread, has insulted it, but what an insult to the posters here who have actually had the courage to say what they feel and think about rock music.

And, I'm not from Tokyo...don't know why you or anyone else would think that, or be talking about it for that matter, nor do I really care. Also, I appreciate the offer, but I don't need you to play back-seat OP. Thanks.

"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

[Strider]

I suspect what annoyed Page about the Hollywood Bowl concert was the front row ticket holders' nonchalance. They were more interested in schmoozing and being seen than in the music. Otherwise their butts would have been in their seats when the concert began.

Question for Strider: Did Paul McCartney ever tour with Wings?

Of course he did. Why do you think it was called the "Wings Over America" tour? That's the 1976 tour I was talking about. There were several more Paul McCartney & Wings tours until Jimmy McCollough's tragic overdose.

As for the scourge of blasé front row audiences, that's been a problem ever since VIPs got preference over real rock and roll fans in the distribution of tickets.

[redrum]

Don't worry about the tangent, redrum. Rock and roll isn't something that you can quantify and teach from a book like a school course, which is why half these questions are meaningless in the end. As Frank Zappa would say, talking(writing) about music is like dancing about architecture.

Besides, from what everyone is saying, MLE from Tokyo is really Del from America. Maybe so, maybe not.

As for Meredith Hunter, it's not just "Gimmie Shelter"...I've read scores of eyewitnesses accounts including one from his girlfriend and it's pretty clear the Angels were after him.

I remember an interviewer asked Zappa if his long hair 'made him a a girl?' Zappa shot back: 'Does your wooden leg make you a table?' :^)

Well, I don't know who MLE is and I guess it doesn't really matter.

I never really read much about the aftermath of Altamont but if witnesses claim that then it's most likely true. I just figured he had pulled a gun and that was the end of it. What a shitty fuckin' day that was all the way around. I experienced similar scenes on a smaller scale in Golden Gate Park with the Angels and they would intimidate everyone. But the 'Chocolate George' story turns all that on its head. The funeral procession pic is on Dolores St. in San Francisco on the way to the Colma cemeteries.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=68144964

[redrum]

A few things changed the scene and it was a gradual change at first. The Zeppelin riot at Tampa in 77', the Who stampede in Cincinnati which killed 11 people, and a few other disasters in the early 80's put an end to general admission at most large venue concerts. Then the REAL, very sudden change came in 94' with the fucking Eagles! The FUCKING EAGLES MAN!!! They proved people were stupid enough to pay $100+ for concert tickets (me included) en masse. Before this show you could have seen a reformed Beatles with Julian Lennon (assuming they would have done this of course) for $25. But seriously folks, up until that fucking tour, the biggest acts in rock were charging between $20 & $25 a ticket. I think the Plant concert in 93' was about $19 a ticket. Madonna was going for about $22, and the absolute hottest act at the time, Nirvana, were getting about $22 per ticket.

The Eagles changed the whole concert landscape in one, huge swoop. They were also one of the first acts to reserve the first four or five rows for VIP's and uber-rich types willing to spend $1,000 per ticket. After that the flood gates were open and that money tree began to sprout like a mighty oak. Shit, I was going to go see Heart a few years back and their tickets STARTED at $100 a pop and they did not even have an album out!

Fuck you Don Henley & Glenn Frey, fuck you both very much!!!

Just recently I didn't go see Bad Company because of the high ticket prices and I didn't even want to spring for the cheap seats way in back with no cover and sure enough it rained like hell that night. That was the amphitheater in Auburn, WA. Christ, you'd think they'd at least take the bad economy into consideration.

Going WAY back to the Fillmore/Avalon/Winterland days in SF you could see 3 bands for $3.50.

[redrum]

No apologies necessary.

The tangent of rock history. :^)

[Strider]

Just recently I didn't go see Bad Company because of the high ticket prices and I didn't even want to spring for the cheap seats way in back with no cover and sure enough it rained like hell that night. That was the amphitheater in Auburn, WA. Christ, you'd think they'd at least take the bad economy into consideration.

Going WAY back to the Fillmore/Avalon/Winterland days in SF you could see 3 bands for $3.50.

Fairly ironic when you consider that rock and roll, and by extension all the music that led to rock and roll - blues, country, rhythm & blues, jazz, jump blues, country boogie - practically all American music was a reaction by the poor and working classes against the starched shirts and stuffy elitism of the classical music snobs.

Now Eagles tickets cost more than opera tickets. A far cry from redrum's beloved Fillmore days.

Of course, you can still experience rock and roll in tiny clubs for $10 or less...that is where the true spirit of rock still lives. On the streets and in the clubs...wherever there are groups of young, adenoidal kids pissed off at their parents with guitars and drums.

That is what I meant when I said true rebellion is underground. It's never found in a beer commercial or at a concert sponsored by Lexus.

[MLE]

A few things changed the scene and it was a gradual change at first. The Zeppelin riot at Tampa in 77', the Who stampede in Cincinnati which killed 11 people, and a few other disasters in the early 80's put an end to general admission at most large venue concerts. Then the REAL, very sudden change came in 94' with the fucking Eagles! The FUCKING EAGLES MAN!!! They proved people were stupid enough to pay $100+ for concert tickets (me included) en masse. Before this show you could have seen a reformed Beatles with Julian Lennon (assuming they would have done this of course) for $25. But seriously folks, up until that fucking tour, the biggest acts in rock were charging between $20 & $25 a ticket. I think the Plant concert in 93' was about $19 a ticket. Madonna was going for about $22, and the absolute hottest act at the time, Nirvana, were getting about $22 per ticket.

The Eagles changed the whole concert landscape in one, huge swoop. They were also one of the first acts to reserve the first four or five rows for VIP's and uber-rich types willing to spend $1,000 per ticket. After that the flood gates were open and that money tree began to sprout like a mighty oak. Shit, I was going to go see Heart a few years back and their tickets STARTED at $100 a pop and they did not even have an album out!

Fuck you Don Henley & Glenn Frey, fuck you both very much!!!

Thanks, Sagittarius Rising.

I don't blame you for skipping Heart. Amazingly, my ticket was $15 (more like $23 after fees) for JBLZE/Heart.

[MLE]

Don't forget the banks and the credit card companies role in all this; most concerts now have separate seating and on-sale dates for the various Platinum, Gold, Black, Tinfoil levels of credit cards, which allow the holders of such a card first access to seats. It is all a part of the corporization of rock that began with Woodstock. This is what Jimmy Page was railing about in that quote MLE posted.

I tend to agree. Thank you for your input, Strider.

[MLE]

Fairly ironic when you consider that rock and roll, and by extension all the music that led to rock and roll - blues, country, rhythm & blues, jazz, jump blues, country boogie - practically all American music was a reaction by the poor and working classes against the starched shirts and stuffy elitism of the classical music snobs.

Absolutely, Strider.

I'd like to say that I don't think we can place complete blame here on the musicians and the record companies. We, as consumers, are responsible for this too. I mean, if the average person stopped tithing the record producers, the Rolling Stones, for example, wouldn't be renting out huge arenas to play for only one or a couple hundred stuffy fuckers, would they?

[MLE]

The question still remains, why are Lady Gaga and other Pop Stars called Rock Stars? I want to know!

[Strider]

The question still remains, why are Lady Gaga and other Pop Stars called Rock Stars? I want to know!

Who calls them Rock Stars? If anyone does, it is most likely lazy journalists too dim to differentiate between pop and rock. This is all part of the conflation of terms 'rock and roll', 'rock', 'popular music', and 'pop' into a ball of confusion.

[Bayougal65]

The question still remains, why are Lady Gaga and other Pop Stars called Rock Stars? I want to know!

We have a very good example this week in the news...

Kanye West declared the following in a BBC interview...

"Rap is the new rock n roll. We the new rock stars, and Im the biggest of all of them. Im the No. 1 rock star on the planet."

Is rap the new rock?

Is he a rock star?

Not in my eyes.

And I would say the majority of Rock fans would agree with me.

His declaring it does not make it so.

Everyone WANTS TO BE A ROCK STAR!

It doesn't make them one!

PS: personally I think Kanye West has some very serious narcissistic, inferiority, maturity and self esteem issues... But that probably belongs in a whole other forum!

[MLE]

Who calls them Rock Stars? If anyone does, it is most likely lazy journalists too dim to differentiate between pop and rock. This is all part of the conflation of terms 'rock and roll', 'rock', 'popular music', and 'pop' into a ball of confusion.

If the record companies didn't want them being called 'Rock Stars' or Rockers, then they wouldn't endorse it, but they do. As for the ball of confusion, perhaps now you can see why my questions aren't so meaningless or irrelevant after all.

[MLE]

We have a very good example this week in the news...

Kanye West declared the following in a BBC interview...

Is rap the new rock?

Is he a rock star?

Not in my eyes.

And I would say the majority of Rock fans would agree with me.

His declaring it does not make it so.

Everyone WANTS TO BE A ROCK STAR!

It doesn't make them one!

PS: personally I think Kanye West has some very serious narcissistic, inferiority, maturity and self esteem issues... But that probably belongs in a whole other forum!

LMAO, Wow....that's...yeah.

If anything, hip hop was the new rock, if you really wanted to go there, I wouldn't but you could. At least there were...some similarities.

So, is the issue that the record companies are too cheap to pay talented musicians to produce Rock Music and as a result we get these 'artists' straight out of the slop-bucket? Or are do the record companies reject the phenomenon/movement of Rock Music altogether?

[redrum]

If rap is rock, then I'm an astronaut.