The Real Nelson Mandela

[ledded1]

What a load of drivel you seem to be coming out with now bringing Margaret Thatcher into this. But I guess any reason to attack Obama eh. Your hatred for Mandela seems extreme and yet you give no reasons why you feel as such. Or are you spouting some elite American moral high ground? He was no saint when fighting apartheid, he was however fighting a viol;ent and opressive white regime. Most of us don't know what it's like to feel so opressed and I bet many of us would fight it. I don't and never will condone violence and such extreme violence, but I really don't know how I would react if oppressed in such a way. You in the state have the right to bear arms just in case you need to fight your own government. How many of you would kill to defend your human rights?

By the way there were millions of Brits here in the UK who didn't want Thatcher to have a major funeral. Obama didn't know Thatcher as far as I'm aware and no major heads of state were invited because it wasnt a state funeral. I don't recall anyone being insulted by Obama not turning up. Thatchers family weren't.

[cryingbluerain]

Re: Thatcher. Read the article I posted. “Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead”, ring a bell?

[DropDown]

It has nothing to do with Margaret Thatcher per se - and certainly is not "elite American moral high ground". Quite simply, Obama has an ax to grind with the UK.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100215856/barack-obamas-top-ten-insults-against-britain-2013-edition/

[Bong-Man]

How dare Obama show up at a State Funeral with three other Presidents....the nerve !

Why waste your time Leddy ?

[DropDown]

Obama behaving like a high schooler at Mandela's funeral, while GWB, who did more for Africa than any other president, got booed. Oy vey.

[ledded1]

Re: Thatcher. Read the article I posted. “Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead”, ring a bell?

She was not widley loved here. The singing was tasteless.

[ledded1]

Obama behaving like a high schooler at Mandela's funeral, while GWB, who did more for Africa than any other president, got booed. Oy vey.

You forget that Bush wasn't particuarly liked around the world due to Iraq and Afghanistan. So are yoing to jump any any negative looking thing with Obama. I bet Mandela didn't want people to be sad and mounful. If everyone else had been jovial and Obama not so, you would criticise him for that.

[DropDown]

You forget that Bush wasn't particuarly liked around the world due to Iraq and Afghanistan. So are yoing to jump any any negative looking thing with Obama. I bet Mandela didn't want people to be sad and mounful. If everyone else had been jovial and Obama not so, you would criticise him for that.

Yet Clinton, who was aware of the Rwandan genocide and did nothing, was also applauded at the commemoration. People have selective memories.

[wanna be drummer]

How many innocent civilians did George Washington kill in his struggle?

Depends on which Native American tribe you ask. Also he has slavery under his belt because he didn't feel like it was his responsibility to free them. But hey, when you're the richest president (adjusted for inflation) by far, who gives a fuck?

[wanna be drummer]

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party.

You misunderstand. I am well aware of the facts on Mandela's life. Your post however, was a blob of nothing. Neither of the first two paragraphs had anything to do with the third "paragraph" which had the only sentence that even remotely resembled a point. That, sir, is what I did not understand. How someone could write that and still press post.

At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandelas MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrates Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrates Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Yes, I think we are all aware of Mandela's terrorist actions. History determines the titles of freedom-fighter vs terrorist by way of who is victorious. And naturally which color was killing which color if you're a white guy. But that isn't my problem here. My problem is that I don't see anyone here slamming Sherman or Grant for their actions in the Civil War. I don't remember anyone bitching about the USAF in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos.

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating [the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of Prisoner of Conscience to anyone associated with violence, even though as in conventional warfare a degree of restraint may be exercised.

Those were innocents killed. Black and White alike.

Yes and he spent 27 YEARS in prison for his actions. He paid for his terrorism. He was also a major figure for destroying apartheid. To me, he repented and still brought down an evil that needed corrected.

Does the media speak of this? No.

Does the media talk about Gandhi's weird fetishes? No.

Does it mean that none of this is true, since it isn't being presented in the media? No

Does this mean that it isn't true that he slept naked with his niece to challenge his celibacy? No.

Does it mean the media has manipulated people into thinking this man is Ghandi or a George Washington? Yuppers

Yes because fighting a traditional war is just so much more worthy of respect. Loss of life be damned! America fought a WAR and there is no way Washington would be seen as a terrorist today had he lost! Also, he never killed a single Native American and didn't screw any tribe or african-slave during the war

Wait...

Cult of personality. The Mandelas were low-grade terrorists. Nothing like Hitler. Just low-grade.

So...what you're telling me is that Mandela is basically a Chechnyan?

Mainstream media works on us little by little. Chipping away at us until we have been programmed into believing what they want us to believe about someone. Sadly the flag of my country is being forced to bow to this man.

The flag of your country is being forced to bow to this man? That must be the lamest thing I've ever read.

My closing point on this subject is this: South Africans ADORE the man. It's very easy for Americans to sit back from their mighty armchairs and pass judgement on every "terrorist" they find throughout history. I'm not saying that the Founding Fathers were terrorists, I honestly don't believe they were. But at the same time, they were dangerously close to becoming terrorists. You Walk the Line and all it takes is a slight change in the wind to throw you overboard. History is not black and white. It's almost entirely gray.

[wanna be drummer]

Yet Clinton, who was aware of the Rwandan genocide and did nothing, was also applauded at the commemoration. People have selective memories.

America helps with natural disasters, but when it comes to tyrants or genocide, we are notoriously unsympathetic.

[apantherfrommd]

Your post however, was a blob of nothing. Neither of the first two paragraphs had anything to do with the third "paragraph" which had the only sentence that even remotely resembled a point. That, sir, is what I did not understand. How someone could write that and still press post.

I apologize. I wasn't aware that the grammar police were out and about. I'll try to keep it in line.

Yes, I think we are all aware of Mandela's terrorist actions. History determines the titles of freedom-fighter vs terrorist by way of who is victorious. And naturally which color was killing which color if you're a white guy. But that isn't my problem here. My problem is that I don't see anyone here slamming Sherman or Grant for their actions in the Civil War. I don't remember anyone bitching about the USAF in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos.

I guess no one's slamming them (Sherman or Grant) or Washington because the focus of this thread is not mainly about the Revolutionary War, Civil War, Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos. They are valid issues. I do respect what you're saying, and appreciate your contribution of it to the thread.

Yes and he spent 27 YEARS in prison for his actions. He paid for his terrorism. He was also a major figure for destroying apartheid. To me, he repented and still brought down an evil that needed corrected.

I suppose you wouldn't believe someone could be contributing to any bombings or conspire to have terrorist acts committed by his faction, unless they are there in the middle of the action? If you think that no one can orchestrate anything from behind bars, you are highly disillusioned. No disrespect meant.

Does the media talk about Gandhi's weird fetishes? No.

I heard he liked to dip his bald head in oil and rub it all over.. nevermind. That was George Costanza.

Does this mean that it isn't true that he slept naked with his niece to challenge his celibacy? No.

...

Yes because fighting a traditional war is just so much more worthy of respect. Loss of life be damned! America fought a WAR and there is no way Washington would be seen as a terrorist today had he lost!

http://youtu.be/ZPg9MdN9Gio

Actually, Sir, I believe you're off target with what is being taught about our founding fathers. The media is producing television shows to discredit any morality that our founding fathers had. It's gradually being introduced that liberty oriented people, Christians, people speaking out against their rights being taken away, people that believe in their right to own arms, people with anti-establishment views, people that point out wrongs of the government, etc, are dangerous radicals. The Obama administration is asking top brass in the military if they would be comfortable with disarming U.S. citizens, a litmus test that includes gauging whether they would be prepared to order NCOs to fire on Americans.

Wait...

So...what you're telling me is that Mandela is basically a Chechnyan?

No, am telling you the Mandelas were low-grade terrorists. Let's keep it simple, huh?

The flag of your country is being forced to bow to this man? That must be the lamest thing I've ever read.

It's called symbolism, dude. Barack Obama's executive order to fly the United States flag at half-staff for Mandela. Lowering the flag is mostly done to honor those that have served America. If you don't like to picture a flag bowing in representation of what someone would do to honor allegance to someone (ex: as Obama has done to leaders of Japan, the Saudis, whathave you), then I apologize to you for your problem with it. If my high esteem for the flag bothers you, I ask that you find it in your heart to either forgive or overlook it. Thank you.

My closing point on this subject is this: South Africans ADORE the man. It's very easy for Americans to sit back from their mighty armchairs and pass judgement on every "terrorist" they find throughout history. I'm not saying that the Founding Fathers were terrorists, I honestly don't believe they were. But at the same time, they were dangerously close to becoming terrorists. You Walk the Line and all it takes is a slight change in the wind to throw you overboard. History is not black and white. It's almost entirely gray.

Really?

The Apartheid government killed a maximum of 7518 black people during the 46 years of Apartheid. Thus white on black.

The liberation movements were responsible for 13482 politically motivated killings. Thus black on black.

Source:

http://iluvsa.blogspot.com/2009/11/no-retribution-for-mbeki.html

Average life

expectancy has fallen sharply, from 64 years in 1994 to 49 years in 2001.

the total unemployment rate to 37 per cent.

Politically Motivated Murders in South Africa from 1948 to 1994:

Blacks Murdered by Blacks:

21000 people were killed in political violence during the 46 years leading up to the elections in April 1994.

14000 of these 21000 people were killed from 1990 to 1994

In the same period, 8580 black South Africans were killed by other blacks South Africans.

Another 4902 were killed by unknown forces, but it is generally assumed that these killings were black on black politically motivated murders. (necklace murders)

The ANC was responsible for mobilising black South Africans to murder other blacks who they thought were working with the Apartheid government.

South African statistics written by South Africans

Ten years after Apartheid (1994-2004): The Raw Facts

Here are the things you will never see in the major news media regarding post-apartheid South Africa:

# South Africa's economy, employment & crime rates were better when the world hated us.

# Our society is 7 times more violent (per capita) than the USA

# Crime is so high the government put a moratorium on the release of crime statistics for a year and fudged them ever since.

# The Democratic Alliance (conservatively) estimates there are 300,000 robberies per year

# South African prisons are often filled to capacity (170,000+) and then thousands are let go, sometimes without being charged.

# In January 2004, it was reported that some of the prisons are 300% over capacity.

# In March 2004, it was reported that the prison population was 180,000.

# Mandela's "Birthday Present" to the country (yes they used those words), was to release 9,000 criminals.

# Murderers have been "forgiven" by our Presidents, only to murder again.

# On 3rd March 2004, on SABC TV3 News it was announced that to "Celebrate Ten Years of Democracy" they might let thousands of prisoners go free.

# More prisons have been built after apartheid but even that is not enough to cope with the crime wave.

# More blacks are in our prisons after apartheid than before. (They no longer fear the Police).

# The ANC LOVES criminals. They gave them the vote! It was announced that over 100,000 prisoners would be registered & allowed to vote

# In the Johannesburg (Gauteng) area, 80% of self-help schemes for Blacks have failed since 1994.

# South Africa is the rape capital of the world... it is conservatively estimated that we have 50,000 rapes per year.

# 21,500 children were raped in 2000.

# 40% of rape survivors are under 18.

# 1,231 children under 5 were raped in 13 months by blacks believing in AIDS myths. Many babies who are raped die.

# In 10 years 1+ million South Africans, mostly blacks, lost their jobs due to the ANC's creeping socialism.

# Unemployment is at a staggering 45%+ - much worse than under white rule & worse than the 30% unemployment in the USA during the Great Depression.

# 1 million whites stand to lose their jobs in the coming years to Affirmative Action programs.

# 1,450+ White commercial farmers have been murdered by black thugs and our food production is being threatened by "Land Reform".

# They say that by 2014, 30% of commercial farmland now owned by Whites will be owned by Blacks (though I think it will happen much sooner & on a much bigger scale).

# 115,000 land claims by Blacks have been processed so far - and millions of hectares of land have been handed over to them.

# There are farms in South Africa, which were prosperous when run by Whites, that were handed over to Blacks. These farms then collapsed after 2 years of black management and are now derelict.

# South Africa is now an international drug-smuggling route, comparable to Colombia.

# We export cannabis grown overwhelmingly by Blacks.

# 150-200 policemen are shot dead annually by violent criminals.

# Our police have the highest suicide rate in the world.

[cryingbluerain]

How dare Obama show up at a State Funeral with three other Presidents....the nerve !

Yeah, you must be overjoyed that they are celebrating someone who thought so highly of the USA:

"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings." Nelson Mandela

[wanna be drummer]

Yeah, you must be overjoyed that they are celebrating someone who thought so highly of the USA:

"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings." Nelson Mandela

We haven't exactly proven him wrong

[wanna be drummer]

I apologize. I wasn't aware that the grammar police were out and about. I'll try to keep it in line.

What? I wasn't referring to grammar. I was referring to substance.

I suppose you wouldn't believe someone could be contributing to any bombings or conspire to have terrorist acts committed by his faction, unless they are there in the middle of the action? If you think that no one can orchestrate anything from behind bars, you are highly disillusioned. No disrespect meant.

My problem with you Mandela haters is you seem to mistake him for bin Laden's folks. Blacks had (still are) been fucked HARD by whites in South Africa. They originally had a non-violent freedom movement there but it was obviously a much different situation than in places such as India. The system was having none of it.

Actually, Sir, I believe you're off target with what is being taught about our founding fathers. The media is producing television shows to discredit any morality that our founding fathers had. It's gradually being introduced that liberty oriented people, Christians, people speaking out against their rights being taken away, people that believe in their right to own arms, people with anti-establishment views, people that point out wrongs of the government, etc, are dangerous radicals. The Obama administration is asking top brass in the military if they would be comfortable with disarming U.S. citizens, a litmus test that includes gauging whether they would be prepared to order NCOs to fire on Americans.

I can tell from this post that you believe me to be some Marxist junkie but you are most certainly incorrect bud. Leftist, I am not.

In any case, this post has nothing to do with anything. I have said nothing of Obama or disarmament of the general public. My point regarding the Founding Fathers is merely that they are not saints and many had skeletons in the closet...lots of skeletons in some cases. I respect most of the fathers, but I still choose to recognize their faults and I merely want to point out that George Washington is not necssarily worthy of the near deification status that he has received in the US.

No, am telling you the Mandelas were low-grade terrorists. Let's keep it simple, huh?

Right. Like a number Chechnyan nationalist movements or the IRA.

It's called symbolism, dude. Barack Obama's executive order to fly the United States flag at half-staff for Mandela. Lowering the flag is mostly done to honor those that have served America. If you don't like to picture a flag bowing in representation of what someone would do to honor allegance to someone (ex: as Obama has done to leaders of Japan, the Saudis, whathave you), then I apologize to you for your problem with it. If my high esteem for the flag bothers you, I ask that you find it in your heart to either forgive or overlook it. Thank you.

My problem is not with you or the flag, it's with this sense entitlement that you seem to possess. The American flag does not bend to YOUR will or wishes. It is a symbol of the American people as a group. You have a problem with it being lowered for Nelson Mandela, but you forget the obvious fact that many Americans DO want the flag lowered. No matter the outcome, lowered or otherwise, someone is not going to like it and will cry foul for the direction of the spirit of America. You just happen to have not gotten your way.

I find beauty in this divide, which ironically represents modern America perfectly. Welcome to "democracy"

Really?
The Apartheid government killed a maximum of 7518 black people during the 46 years of Apartheid. Thus white on black.

The liberation movements were responsible for 13482 politically motivated killings. Thus black on black.

And how many did the United States government before MLK Jr? I'm willing to bet not many. Does that mean a movement is not necessary?

Average life
expectancy has fallen sharply, from 64 years in 1994 to 49 years in 2001.
the total unemployment rate to 37 per cent.

It is 52 year now and the unemployment rate is down to 29.8%. Things are getting better. Slowly, as all good things do.

Politically Motivated Murders in South Africa from 1948 to 1994:
Blacks Murdered by Blacks:
21000 people were killed in political violence during the 46 years leading up to the elections in April 1994.

14000 of these 21000 people were killed from 1990 to 1994

In the same period, 8580 black South Africans were killed by other blacks South Africans.

Another 4902 were killed by unknown forces, but it is generally assumed that these killings were black on black politically motivated murders. (necklace murders)

The ANC was responsible for mobilising black South Africans to murder other blacks who they thought were working with the Apartheid government.

South African statistics written by South Africans
Ten years after Apartheid (1994-2004): The Raw Facts
Here are the things you will never see in the major news media regarding post-apartheid South Africa:
# South Africa's economy, employment & crime rates were better when the world hated us.
# Our society is 7 times more violent (per capita) than the USA
# Crime is so high the government put a moratorium on the release of crime statistics for a year and fudged them ever since.
# The Democratic Alliance (conservatively) estimates there are 300,000 robberies per year
# South African prisons are often filled to capacity (170,000+) and then thousands are let go, sometimes without being charged.
# In January 2004, it was reported that some of the prisons are 300% over capacity.
# In March 2004, it was reported that the prison population was 180,000.
# Mandela's "Birthday Present" to the country (yes they used those words), was to release 9,000 criminals.
# Murderers have been "forgiven" by our Presidents, only to murder again.
# On 3rd March 2004, on SABC TV3 News it was announced that to "Celebrate Ten Years of Democracy" they might let thousands of prisoners go free.
# More prisons have been built after apartheid but even that is not enough to cope with the crime wave.
# More blacks are in our prisons after apartheid than before. (They no longer fear the Police).
# The ANC LOVES criminals. They gave them the vote! It was announced that over 100,000 prisoners would be registered & allowed to vote
# In the Johannesburg (Gauteng) area, 80% of self-help schemes for Blacks have failed since 1994.
# South Africa is the rape capital of the world... it is conservatively estimated that we have 50,000 rapes per year.
# 21,500 children were raped in 2000.
# 40% of rape survivors are under 18.
# 1,231 children under 5 were raped in 13 months by blacks believing in AIDS myths. Many babies who are raped die.
# In 10 years 1+ million South Africans, mostly blacks, lost their jobs due to the ANC's creeping socialism.
# Unemployment is at a staggering 45%+ - much worse than under white rule & worse than the 30% unemployment in the USA during the Great Depression.
# 1 million whites stand to lose their jobs in the coming years to Affirmative Action programs.
# 1,450+ White commercial farmers have been murdered by black thugs and our food production is being threatened by "Land Reform".
# They say that by 2014, 30% of commercial farmland now owned by Whites will be owned by Blacks (though I think it will happen much sooner & on a much bigger scale).
# 115,000 land claims by Blacks have been processed so far - and millions of hectares of land have been handed over to them.
# There are farms in South Africa, which were prosperous when run by Whites, that were handed over to Blacks. These farms then collapsed after 2 years of black management and are now derelict.
# South Africa is now an international drug-smuggling route, comparable to Colombia.
# We export cannabis grown overwhelmingly by Blacks.
# 150-200 policemen are shot dead annually by violent criminals.
# Our police have the highest suicide rate in the world.

One question before I respond to any of this: Would South Africa be better off with Apartheid still in effect, because it certainly appears you are arguing so.

[cryingbluerain]

We haven't exactly proven him wrong

Nobody's perfect but we're the best thing out there afaic and I'll be damned if I'm going to support anyone who wants to trash us.

[wanna be drummer]

Nobody's perfect but we're the best thing out there afaic and I'll be damned if I'm going to support anyone who wants to trash us.

I mean, we're certainly the best thing out there for "us" but for the rest of the world? Absolutely false. Not a discussion.

[Anjin-san]

I mean, we're certainly the best thing out there for "us" but for the rest of the world? Absolutely false. Not a discussion.

China will take care of it,....

[cryingbluerain]

I mean, we're certainly the best thing out there for "us" but for the rest of the world? Absolutely false. Not a discussion.

The rest of the world? If we go down so does everybody else.

[ledded1]

The rest of the world, ie everywhere outside America. Well I guess the $1.3Trillion dollars in debts that the US owes to China would hit them hard.

You really need to understand that not every country or person in the world sees the US as the altruistic cavalry still riding in to save everyone.

[SteveAJones]

America helps with natural disasters, but when it comes to South African genocide, we are notoriously unsympathetic.

Fixed that for you.

[apantherfrommd]

You really need to understand that not every country or person in the world sees the US as the altruistic cavalry still riding in to save everyone.

Regretfully, I agree.

"While America can't be a global cop, it ought to act when in certain situations. That's what makes us exceptional," Obama said. "With humility, but with resolve, let us never lose sight of that essential truth."

Putin's answer to that?

"It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation," he wrote.

What's laughable is Obama speaking of humility. To me, Putin's reply put it into context a little better. No one should be so filled with pride that we think we have to be the ones to do something about something. In basketball, even the season leader should pass the ball. Forgive my crude analogy. Overconfidence is dangerous. It can really make one lose sight of what necessitates the importance of everyone involved; and even if a party should be involved.

My problem with you Mandela haters is you seem to mistake him for bin Laden's folks.

I don't hate Mandela. He did some good. But what I do hate is what he has done, which is not reflected in the World Stream media.

I can tell from this post that you believe me to be some Marxist junkie but you are most certainly incorrect bud. Leftist, I am not.

In any case, this post has nothing to do with anything. I have said nothing of Obama or disarmament of the general public. My point regarding the Founding Fathers is merely that they are not saints and many had skeletons in the closet...lots of skeletons in some cases. I respect most of the fathers, but I still choose to recognize their faults and I merely want to point out that George Washington is not necssarily worthy of the near deification status that he has received in the US.

It doesn't matter what I think about you. I don't believe you to be some Marxist junkie. I have more respect for you than you think, bud. Your signature says enough for me. And I'll take you at that you'd be willing to back it up. I could probably learn more from your posts. I take your posts seriously, though I don't agree with you in relation to everything. Nuff said.

Right. Like a number Chechnyan nationalist movements or the IRA.

Sure thing, If you really wish to go that route. Killing innocents purposely warrants no justification. I can see your correlation. Those who purposely draw blood on innocent civilians to draw attention to themselves and their cause are terrorists.

My problem is not with you or the flag, it's with this sense entitlement that you seem to possess. The American flag does not bend to YOUR will or wishes. It is a symbol of the American people as a group. You have a problem with it being lowered for Nelson Mandela, but you forget the obvious fact that many Americans DO want the flag lowered. No matter the outcome, lowered or otherwise, someone is not going to like it and will cry foul for the direction of the spirit of America. You just happen to have not gotten your way.

I find beauty in this divide, which ironically represents modern America perfectly. Welcome to "democracy"

I believe in the republic for which it stands. As an American I do believe I'm entitled to feel how I do. If I don't get my way, I accept it. But I don't adopt the reason for the decision behind it. A harmless peaceful protest, if you will.

And how many did the United States government before MLK Jr?Does that mean a movement is not necessary?

I'm glad their was a movement here in the States for equality, and a movement in South Africa as well. I'm against Apartheid, but am also against what Mandela replaced that with. Mandela was more "establishment" than I believe you know, or maybe care to know due to the passion you have for the elimination of Apartheid.

It is 52 year now and the unemployment rate is down to 29.8%. Things are getting better. Slowly, as all good things do.

52 years for life expectancy as opposed to 64 years of age after Apartheid. Do you consider that better? And if unemployment is now 29.8%, good deal.

One question before I respond to any of this: Would South Africa be better off with Apartheid still in effect, because it certainly appears you are arguing so.

As for your one question, yes. I think Apartheid was horrible, and what is instilled there now is worse. I stated that in what you called my "blob of nothing", that everyone else understood but you. And I will add that what is instilled in South Africa now is there by design.

I don't have a problem with you or anyone else doubting this. In fact I understand where you're coming from. Maybe people that are calling Mandela's acts on this thread are racist, if you wish to conclude that. But if you dismiss the notion of "racist posters", then maybe there is actually some validity to what's being stated. If you love the guy, then what's wrong with actually looking into what's being said that you disagree with. You can either see where it disproves us wrong and strengthens your zeal, or at worse maybe you could see a bigger broader picture of Mandela that you didn't know about. Peace

*unrelated to topic* My apologies on my method of reply. When I'm posting, I'm having technical problems. I hope it isn't too unbearable. So I'm having to underline and bolden print, etc...

[SteveAJones]

Yeah, you must be overjoyed that they are celebrating someone who thought so highly of the USA:

"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings." Nelson Mandela

Like I've said all along, he was a low-grade terrorist and a life-long Communist sympathezer...but he had one hell of a public relations staff!

[Ross62]

Here's some perspective.

And if we look at the remembrance service yesterday that took place in Jo'burg and was attended by world leaders,a serving and ex U.S Presidents,also many thousands of black and white South Africaners who were obviously not programmed to believe the so called hype,I don't think a few disagreeable heads on the Zep forum who couldn't turn a thread around to their liking is going to change world opinion.Let alone change other members opinions on said Zep forum.

[SteveAJones]

Here's some perspective.

And if we look at the remembrance service yesterday that took place in Jo'burg and was attended by world leaders,a serving and ex U.S Presidents,also many thousands of black and white South Africaners who were obviously not programmed to believe the so called hype,I don't think a few disagreeable heads on the Zep forum who couldn't turn a thread around to their liking is going to change world opinion.Let alone change other members opinions on said Zep forum.

No one tried to turn a thread around or change any hearts and minds, he's just a controversial figure. Having said that, I haven't seen this level of just shut up and color, mandated mourning since Princess Diana's untimely passing. Stands to reason as both were to some extent pop culture/celebrity icons...famous for being famous.