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Mr. Hudson

John Bonham was the TRUE leader in this band.

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Drums would have to follow the other instruments in order for the music to make sense, and vice versa for the other instruments, but he really lead the way. He was pushing and pulling more than the rest musically, and live he was a monster. He'd take command more than a back seat.

What I meant is that Bonham would play just a little behind the beat, instead of on the beat as many rock and pop drummers do. He was like many jazz drummers in that respect.

It doesn't matter what Bonham did in concert, and even then, Jimmy led more often than you seem to think. But when you ask who is the TRUE leader of Led Zeppelin, in as much that we all recognize that, musically, Led Zeppelin was a sum far greater than the parts and that Jimmy allowed each member ample space in the sonic spectrum to flourish on their records, to say anyone other than Jimmy Page was the "true leader" ignores all the evidence and facts.

Peter Grant himself told Bonzo this when he was acting up...Jimmy Page is the one paying you! Or words to that effect. There's a reason why when Bonham was on one of his drunken rages, the one guy he never threw in the pool was Jimmy.

Edited by Strider

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being a drummer, i can understand this post, drummers like Rich and other big band drummers would often lead the band in terms of dynamics, when my band go off on a jam i am often the one to give nods and cues. Just like in modern dance music, its often the beat and where that goes that moves you..as in...drop the beat etc

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They were all leaders - that's what makes them so paramount. Unlike say, Kiss, they all worked together for the most part.

Bassists are always underrated because of their role - subdued. But they were all equally necessary. That's why I hate these threads since they challenge Led Zeppelin's musical standing. Its a preference, but not a dedinitive answer.

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I would love to have audio of nothing but Bonham drumming on all of the Zeppelin tracks.

What outakes I have heard, I just love.

Bonham's drumming is intoxicating and mesmerizing.

If only the Bonham estate could have the authority to release the persussion only tracks from the recordings, what a joy that would be to listen to.

As great a guitarist Jimmy is, the vocalist the Robert is, and the bass/keyboardist the JPJ is, I believe that John Bonham is the Best artist in the band. And that's saying something, considering who he worked with.

For me, John Bonham is the Heart & Soul of Led Zeppelin.

I wish I had realized that before his untimely death.

But, I've got that straight now. :)

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I would love to have audio of nothing but Bonham drumming on all of the Zeppelin tracks.

What outakes I have heard, I just love.

Bonham's drumming is intoxicating and mesmerizing.

If only the Bonham estate could have the authority to release the persussion only tracks from the recordings, what a joy that would be to listen to.

As great a guitarist Jimmy is, the vocalist the Robert is, and the bass/keyboardist the JPJ is, I believe that John Bonham is the Best artist in the band. And that's saying something, considering who he worked with.

For me, John Bonham is the Heart & Soul of Led Zeppelin.

I wish I had realized that before his untimely death.

But, I've got that straight now. :)

After witnessing a 30+ minute drum solo at Earls Court, great though it was, I would not like to listen to a complete album of just percussion. It gets boring after a while.

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Being a musician myself there are so many aspects to a band.The beat,the melody,the lyrics.Unless your Neil Part most drummers are concerned with the beat.John Bonham had that in spades as well feel,soul and power.He was the engine room.Page,Plant and Jones added the rest.If you don't have a good drummer, you don't have a band and when they lost John that's why they disbanded.Having said that Bonham was not the leader,that was Mr Pages job.He overseered the whole concept.Yes every one played a vital role but it was Page who was ultimately in charge.It was only in later years when substance abuse weakened his power .Plant and Jones virtually had to make ITTOD themselves.Bonham was in drunken haze and Grant was having his problems.Having said this John was the heart and soul behind a lot of performances and that's what we should rember him as an irreplacable member of the band.

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I don't think I can add to this discussion very well but here's a go anyway.

I would reason Page by and large, combined with Grant, was the leader for the majority of years. After '77 when his health deteriorated and his habits increased he lost sight of the dream temporarily and Plant (after being persuaded by Bonham) and Jones carried it through in late '78 and '79. By the '80 tour Page was back to pursuing an agenda for the group and Plant attested to this. Page was reviewing mock stage and lighting set ups for the Fall USA '80 campaign one week prior to Bonham's passing.

Ultimately though each member had their doubts or distractions at various times - Jones in '73, Page in '78 - '79, Plant in '77 - '78 and Bonham at the very end. Bonzo did not want to leave his family again and doubted his ability to perform as required (clues to this throughout 1980) and his nerves, a handicap all his life, overcame his sense of self. Based on these arguments each member was a leader at times.

On a lark to support the thread title itself - during "The Rover" segue into "Sick Again" at Houston 1977/05/21, Bonham's yells "Pick it up" in frustration at his band mates lack of gusto, and accordingly the other members turned it up a notch. A leader leads.

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I've had many a drummer yell things at the rest of the band,they're a cantankerous bunch.After all they hit things.Where are you Ginger?

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While John was a tremendous drummer and Zeppelin would not have been the force they were without him -

He was also a detriment in some cases. He had a violent temper, moody, and prone to pull vicious pranks on the

unsuspecting. He earned the nick-name "Beast" for good reasons it seems.

His addictions only magnified his loneliness and temperament. He missed home and family and that brought out

a dark side that not even the Band could escape.

That said - John Bonham was and is a legend. Rest long and in peace.

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After witnessing a 30+ minute drum solo at Earls Court, great though it was, I would not like to listen to a complete album of just percussion. It gets boring after a while.

What I am mostly interested in listening to are studio percussion tracks, and *not* 30 minute drum "solos". I find the studio persussion tracks anything but boring. Live drum solos, live organ solos, and live guitar instrumentals, yes, I do find those boring, for the most part....

Edited by The Rover

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Jimmy Page was the leader, no doubt. founder, producer, composer, etc...he navigated the ship, musically, professionally and from a business sense, too. Sure, they all contributed to the sound and were all equally talented...but Jimmy was the leader. Without Jimmy Page there would be no Led Zeppelin. I don't think people realized how hard Jimmy worked, when all the members were back with family, etc...off stage, Jimmy was producing, engineering albums. Even through the 'bad periods' Jimmy was still in charge.

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Well my 2 cents would be, Mr.John Henry Bonham was not the leader he was the glue that held everything together, on and off stage.

I don't think Bonzo was the glue that held everything together (and certainly not a peace maker), especially off stage. He returned home to his family and he rarely engaged off stage. He was often the opposite of the glue. But an awesome drum player none the less!

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Without JPJ there would be no Zeppelin. Without Bonham there would be no Zeppelin. Without Plant there would be more Zeppelin. Sure, Page was the leader when the band started but by the end, they were sharing equal roles.

Bonham held the glue to the band because he was the groove. He was the backbone. The drummer is the glue that held the band, especially for a band like Zeppelin.

Edited by ledzepfilm

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Without JPJ there would be no Zeppelin. Without Bonham there would be no Zeppelin. Without Plant there would be more Zeppelin. Sure, Page was the leader when the band started but by the end, they were sharing equal roles.

Bonham held the glue to the band because he was the groove. He was the backbone. The drummer is the glue that held the band, especially for a band like Zeppelin.

Well, I disagree. A leader isn't just about the beat of the music, in fact that isn't the leader at all, it's setting the tone, branding the band, the imagine (Jimmy's idea for symbols, album covers, everything). Thus, it's leading the entire zep machine in every direction within business, music, creativity. Bonzo wasn't the creative force at all, never was. And today, Page is still in charge of media and reproducing stuff, etc...it's always been Page. There would be no Zeppelin without Page because he formed the damn band, duh. It's not an argument or debate, it's a fact. I'm sure they all contributed equally musically, but business sense, direction, directing, navigating, producing, composing, it was Page. It's a given. Bonzo was not the glue. I'm not sure in what reference you're implying this...holding a beat, following a beat, that has nothing to do with being the LEADER of a band. That's just about a song. In every concert or concert video, Bonzo is watching pagey like a hawk, he's in the back watching the front. following not leading. Page is out front with Robert, he's not turning around and playing TO the drummer, following the drummer, it's reverse. Page turns back, typically, to Bonham, when he's gonna end and wrap the song/solo up, to clue Bonzo that 'we're done'.

Edited by Katie4pagey

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Gotta chime in here... while I totally agree that Led Zeppelin was Jimmy's baby, it took all four members to create the sound. Jimmy's vision was brilliant, but the four of them together was what made this band so amazing. Also, live you never knew what direction a song was going to take from one concert to the next and yet they pushed the limits musically.They took you on a journey and they knew EXACTLY how to play off of one another IMHO. Greatest Band, hence why they still have a legion of fans, especially those of us who are here who have a genuine passion for this music.When they/we lost Bonzo and they decided to disband, my respect which I thought could not get any higher, well it did. Just my two cents :yesnod:

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Gotta chime in here... while I totally agree that Led Zeppelin was Jimmy's baby, it took all four members to create the sound. Jimmy's vision was brilliant, but the four of them together was what made this band so amazing. Also, live you never knew what direction a song was going to take from one concert to the next and yet they pushed the limits musically.They took you on a journey and they knew EXACTLY how to play off of one another IMHO. Greatest Band, hence why they still have a legion of fans, especially those of us who are here who have a genuine passion for this music.When they/we lost Bonzo and they decided to disband, my respect which I thought could not get any higher, well it did. Just my two cents :yesnod:

that's not even the argument, of course it was ALL four of them, they were all very, very talented. Page did a great job getting them all together and creating the vision and vibe. Jimmy has said that over and over, how it was everyone's talent 'together' that made them such a force..but in terms of navigating and leading, Jimmy was just that. It's not debatable.

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Hi Katie4pagey!

The most disrespect any of us can do is argue as the music is supposed to bring us together and I totally understand and appreciate your point of view...but it was Robert who brought in Bonzo. All I can say is that I am so very glad that these four got together...the rest is history :peace:

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Page didn't put them all together. Plant introduced Bonham to the band, so it wouldn't entirely exist without Plant.

The band wasn't led by Page. In the beginning it was. By 1980, they were all in control. Page probably took a smaller back seat because of his heroin addiction. Page is putting these remasters together because he's doing NOTHING. Plant's touring and JPJ's doing other musical things.

Page is not any ranking higher than the other three.

Edited by ledzepfilm

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Page didn't put them all together. Plant introduced Bonham to the band, so it wouldn't entirely exist without Plant.

The band wasn't led by Page. In the beginning it was. By 1980, they were all in control. Page probably took a smaller back seat because of his heroin addiction. Page is putting these remasters together because he's doing NOTHING. Plant's touring and JPJ's doing other musical things.

Page is not any ranking higher than the other three.

Duh, we all know plant introduced bohman to page but it was his band and he didn't have to put him in the band, now..did he. and plant wasn't forming any band on his own and wasn't even working with bonhnam. So if page didn't put them all together...then who the hell did. plant didn't know jones, bonham didn't know page, page got them ALL together to form a band, no one else did! jones also reached out to page about being in the band, page put him in the band. You're full on nonsense. Who the hell composed and produced the albums. Enough said. I'm not arguing facts. By 1980 they were just about done, so that was the final end of the group in September. Page put the band together in, what... 1968? Page could be touring and probably do whatever he wanted, he's chosen to do this. And Plant is doing it for fun these days.

Edited by Katie4pagey

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1) Page wouldn't have said yes at all if it wasn't for Plant. Everyone counts in the decision, you know.

2) Jones helped Page put the band together. Jones called up Page to ask if he could be in the band. You can say that Page said yes, but Jones inquired about it in the first place. Again, everyone counts in this, not just Page.

3) All four members contributed to the composing and producing of the albums - I will admit that Page did most of the producing.

4) Page was heroined out by 1978 when the band reconvened. ITTOD was the first album where there were songs without Page in the song credits. There were no guitar driven songs apart from In The Evening. All of the rockers were thrown on Coda.

I am not putting down Pagey but he wasn't the only reason why Zeppelin existed. Led Zeppelin was Led Zeppelin because of everyone who was involved, not just Jimmy.

Edited by ledzepfilm

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Katie, your opinion has been noted and like I stated I can understand your point of view, it's your right, but let me stress again, the music is supposed to bring us together. Comments like duh and your full of nonsense does not bring people together. I truly mean no disrespect to you but you usually get back what you put forth. :peace:

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