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jim6225

Lawsuit over Stairway to Heaven

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31 minutes ago, Balthazor said:

If ambiguous notions like "concept" and "feel" are going to be the determining factors in musical copyright cases, rather than the actual notes, chords, and structure, then I see no reason for Led Zeppelin to NOT sue practically every hard rock band that came after them.

Also If we are talking about sueing for some notes, then they should sue Whitesnake, as the Immigrant song riff appears in Still of the night.

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Balthazor, you should be on Zep's side presenting that excellent argument. Because if the damned judge/jury allows

Zep to lose this case, a precedent would actually be set . There are hundreds of songs that borrow in all manner from

Zep, and now the band could exact all hell if the Taurus case is ruled against Zep. Probably likely that the defense team

has stumbled upon your observation, as the outcome of this case would affect far more than the band's reputation.

An excellent defense, the gates of hell would open up to probably hundreds of other nuisance lawsuits.

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On April 14, 2016 at 0:23 PM, Brigante said:

I wouldn't even say that Stairway was in any way 'inspired' by Taurus. There's a tiny similarity in one short section - and that's all. It's either a simple coincidence or a parallel development based on similar influences. I don't believe for a minute that Jimmy heard Taurus and thought 'I'm having that'. Bullsh*t.

+1

:goodpost:

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And that's where Zep may well have a huge advantage in a trial. Forget 

just music, films, video games etc., would now be open season. It would

actually be incredible if Zep lost the case, but it is a civil trial so a ridiculous

outcome is still I guess unlikely but possible.

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On 4/16/2016 at 5:39 AM, anniemouse said:

There is a massive and wider ranging implication if LZ loses this case. I can think of a major film director who openly cites his influences (other directors and film industries) on his entire career. Would we have director suing director. I can think of a at least one major contemporary artist in the UK who uses the work of an artist who worked in the 18th/19th century as the backdrop to their output. Classical musicians using the work of earlier artiste to inspire. Literature from all genres taking inspiration from earlier works.

Citing feel is going to be artistically stifling.

I recall reading that Stanley Kubrick had the cast and crew of The Shining watch David Lynch's film Eraserhead to "put them in the mood" because he wanted to achieve the same kind of feel for his film.

As you and others have said, the implications for this could potentially be huge. Imagine George Lucas suing anyone who made a movie which involved spaceships, or Steven Spielberg suing any movie which depicted dinosaurs. It sounds ridiculous, but that is essentially what's being said here in this suit. The music scene is in bad enough shape as it is, but a ruling like this one could all but kill it.

Edited by Balthazor

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On 4/14/2016 at 1:30 PM, Charles J. White said:

Let’s clear this up once and for ALL – Taurus and Stairway to Heaven are NOT even close in the opening; one song is a “descending” series of notes and the 2nd song is an “ascending” series of notes. Can we all just put this to bed once and for all…Fuck this whole discussion grates my nerves.

The notes on the D string are both descending, not ascending.  This is what binds them together in similarity, and also what makes them both lifts "inspired" by Davy Graham's version of "Cry Me a River".  Jimmy didn't copy from Randy, they both copied from Davy.  Search for the threads showing how much Page copied from Davy. It's his estate that should be suing Page, with Bert Jansch as a co-plaintiff.

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"Will the 'Stairway to Heaven' Jury Hear About Jimmy Page's Drug Use and "Serial Plagiarism"?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/led-zeppelins-stairway-heaven-trial-884754


And so the kicking below the belt comes in.  I figured Randy's side would eventually try and
weasel Jimmy's heavy use of drugs into all of this.  What's next having the jury hear about
Jimmy and Lori at the Hyatt, or his interest in the occult and Crowley?  
<_<

I am hoping that it's ruled that ALL their personal junk stays out of it.  I hope Zep wins and this
is finally put to bed for good.


 

 

Edited by KellyGirl

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I call bullshit on this lawsuit, these assholes ate trying to get an easy cash grab, I hope they fucking lose and spend a lot of money on this and don't get a dime back.

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3 hours ago, voodoo chile said:

NEWSFLASH:

Estate of Giovanni Battista Granata set to sue Spirit, Led Zeppelin, Davy Graham, Eric Clapton, Dolly Parton, and my grandmother for musical plagiarism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKpbJ5Kjy2I

 

 

Thanks  Voodoo Chile.  I never knew anything about this guy,but I sure do now. You cracked the case for sure with this. Good work!  I really hate that fraud lawyer for Spirit now. What a money hungry piece of trash he really is .  Thanks again.

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Quote

  LOS ANGELES (CN) - Jurors should hear evidence of Led Zeppelin's "systematic plagiarism" as the legendary rock band fights claims that it copied part of another song for "Stairway to Heaven," according to court papers filed Friday.

 

http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/04/18/led-zeppelin-fights-claim-of-systemic-plagiarism.htm

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The link below provided by Twitter acct. @LedZepNews.  It's a fairly long read and some of it
perhaps has been posted already,  but for those following this case,  it has your daily dose of
lawyer ramblings. 
:blahblah:

Randy's party is playing hardball.  It reads like Zeppelin were these notorious song stealing
bandits who went around like serial plagiarists lifting music from other artists as if it was as
common as breathing for them.  The judge better use 'good judgement' and says this is a
no-go at the trial.  The focus should be on Stairway and Stairway only.
:rtfm: :rant:


"Various quotes attempting to demonstrate repeated plagiarism by Led Zeppelin members
Robert Plant and Jimmy Page"


https://www.scribd.com/doc/309731127/Zep-Motion-to-Exclude-Opp-Plagiarism

Edited by KellyGirl

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How does an 8 minute epic piece of music (STH) get sued over a short intro, and a song that basically lifts an entire tune (see below) get a pass? Imagine the kind of havoc a lawyer with this kind of agenda could wreak? It would be endless....... 

Nah, doesn't resemble ZZ Tops La Grange, not at all. :lol:

 

 

Edited by blindwillie127

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On 4/19/2016 at 0:46 PM, KellyGirl said:

"Will the 'Stairway to Heaven' Jury Hear About Jimmy Page's Drug Use and "Serial Plagiarism"?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/led-zeppelins-stairway-heaven-trial-884754


And so the kicking below the belt comes in.  I figured Randy's side would eventually try and
weasel Jimmy's heavy use of drugs into all of this.  What's next having the jury hear about
Jimmy and Lori at the Hyatt, or his interest in the occult and Crowley?  
<_<

I am hoping that it's ruled that ALL their personal junk stays out of it.  I hope Zep wins and this
is finally put to bed for good.


 

 

While I think this whole lawsuit is just a desperate money grab, I found it interesting that there were references to depositions by Jones and Plant that are sealed! (not sure if this is normal practice)

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I agree with the above just a money grab. The fact that forum members here have found examples of the STH intro chord progression that predate both recordings if the Zep lawyers lost this case I would question how good these lawyers really are and I'm already skeptical of the judge on this one... With his statement of "substantially similar" I would read that as this situation is coincidence and not theft

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On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 2:29 PM, voodoo chile said:

NEWSFLASH:

Estate of Giovanni Battista Granata set to sue Spirit, Led Zeppelin, Davy Graham, Eric Clapton, Dolly Parton, and my grandmother for musical plagiarism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKpbJ5Kjy2I

 

 

LOL!  The exclusive is about a couple of years late.  Not sure how that's an exclusive and what research was really done since I posted the same information back on May 10th 2015 on page 11in this thread with a link to the music!  There was a post on FBO with the link and I added the information into the thread over here. I can provide the name of the poster, and the date it was posted. The post on FBO was titled "This tune's got more Stairway in its first measures than anything by Spirit". The post was made by Jenzi Silverman on Saturday June 14th 2014.  Credit goes to Jenzi and not Noah Itman.

Edited by Sems Fir
addition of three words

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Any lawyers in the house?  Do the depositions become unsealed at some point?  When it
comes to legal talk I have an IQ of about 5. 
:blush: It goes pretty much over my head.

From what I gather, depending on what will be allowed to be used against Zep - could be the
make or break in the case.  I'm a bit errrr
:unsure: if the judge says fair game for the jury to hear
all the other plagerism cases and hearsay chatter.  Maybe Zep's attorneys have an ace up
their sleeve?
  "Oooh look a cute little video with sound of Jimmy in 1965 playing his guitar. 
And he's playing the beginning of what will later be known in 1971 as Stairway To Heaven"


Does #TeamZep have faith they will win this and Randy's side will go home empty handed?  Or
does Team Randy think this case going to trial means let's pop open a bottle of Dom
:banana:We're
getting the keys to the Zep kingdom?  To be a fly on the wall eh?! 


If Zep think they have this one in the bag,  power to them.  Go to trial and break a leg boys!!
But damn if they are on the verge of losing - would handling it out of court be that bad?
Names are going through the mud right now and I hate to see that.  I'm waiting for the day
when I don't hear or read Taurus,  Spirit or Randy 'California' Wolfe in connection to Zeppelin
:( 

Edited by KellyGirl

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1 hour ago, Sems Fir said:

LOL!  The exclusive is about a couple of years late.  Not sure how that's an exclusive and what research was really done since I posted the same information back on May 10th 2015 on page 11in this thread with a link to the music!  There was a post on FBO with the link and I added the information into the thread over here. I can provide the name of the poster, and the date it was posted. The post on FBO was titled "This tune's got more Stairway in its first measures than anything by Spirit". The post was made by Jenzi Silverman on Saturday June 14th 2014.  Credit goes to Jenzi and not Noah Itman.

Good grief, it was a joke. I made no claims of "exclusivity" or research.

The excellent New Yorker article by Alex Ross (posted earlier in this thread) mentions the link. And, yes, it has been posted multiple times on other music forums as well along with several other tunes which use the "stolen" Am descending progression. 

It was also first uploaded on YouTube on December 2011. I notice it has received thousands of views fairly recently, which is good.

 

 

 

 

 

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They should have done everything they could to settle this as quietly as possible out of court.  Nope.  And Now begins all the far worse collateral damage: Already huge and growing Main street media coverage of Zep's history of "stealing songs" ,  backed with out of context quotes/ misguided examples/ experts opinions / etc./ etc.    All the Zep haters  and envy having a field day.  And damage to their reputation and legacy (that Page has tried to preserve and protect for the last  35 years)is at issue:  it's now spiraling out of control ...

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5 hours ago, RIP-IT-UP said:

They should have done everything they could to settle this as quietly as possible out of court.  Nope.  And Now begins all the far worse collateral damage: Already huge and growing Main street media coverage of Zep's history of "stealing songs" ,  backed with out of context quotes/ misguided examples/ experts opinions / etc./ etc.    All the Zep haters  and envy having a field day.  And damage to their reputation and legacy (that Page has tried to preserve and protect for the last  35 years)is at issue:  it's now spiraling out of control ...

Agreed. They will always be vulnerable because the examples are so numerous. While this lawsuit may not have merit, there are still examples of Page's "influences" that will always look bad. If Bert Jansch hadn't listed all of his performances as "Traditional" on Jack Orion, he could've made a killing suing Page for Black Mountainside (Black Waterside), Going to California (Nottamun Town and Henry Martin), Bron-Y-Aur Stomp (Waggoner's Lad), and the multiple releases that feature the live version of White Summer (which includes Bert Jansch's Casbah).  Likewise for Davy Graham for White Summer, along with other lifts. 

Not really sad for Page here. He made millions. He can afford it. He took the material, he should pay the price. Won't change my ability to enjoy listening to Zeppelin's music one bit. 

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4 hours ago, pluribus said:

Agreed. They will always be vulnerable because the examples are so numerous. While this lawsuit may not have merit, there are still examples of Page's "influences" that will always look bad. If Bert Jansch hadn't listed all of his performances as "Traditional" on Jack Orion, he could've made a killing suing Page for Black Mountainside (Black Waterside), Going to California (Nottamun Town and Henry Martin), Bron-Y-Aur Stomp (Waggoner's Lad), and the multiple releases that feature the live version of White Summer (which includes Bert Jansch's Casbah).  Likewise for Davy Graham for White Summer, along with other lifts. 

Not really sad for Page here. He made millions. He can afford it. He took the material, he should pay the price. Won't change my ability to enjoy listening to Zeppelin's music one bit. 

Not saying right or wrong but Page in numerous interviews since 1968 brought up Jansch & Graham repeatedly as his main influences in regard to acoustic guitar, and, since those songs were credited as trad before, the question is whether Page should have also used the trad credit as well. Willie Dixon stole lock, stock, and barrel from his uneducated peers and never gave them any credit. Page alway gave credit in interviews to his influences which resulted in those artists achieving a modicum of additional commercial revenue which they never would have had without Page. This is exactly how I got into the blues & celtic folk, by Page interviews which made me seek out these influences and buy their records. I have heard Page acknowledge both Jansch & Graham many, many times...has Spirit or Randy California ever acknowledged Graham?

Edited by IpMan

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12 hours ago, RIP-IT-UP said:

They should have done everything they could to settle this as quietly as possible out of court.  Nope.  And Now begins all the far worse collateral damage: Already huge and growing Main street media coverage of Zep's history of "stealing songs" ,  backed with out of context quotes/ misguided examples/ experts opinions / etc./ etc.    All the Zep haters  and envy having a field day.  And damage to their reputation and legacy (that Page has tried to preserve and protect for the last  35 years)is at issue:  it's now spiraling out of control ...

Agreed.  Unfortunately Page misjudged the possibility of this going against him.

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Just now, RIP-IT-UP said:

They should have done everything they could to settle this as quietly as possible out of court.  Nope.  And Now begins all the far worse collateral damage: Already huge and growing Main street media coverage of Zep's history of "stealing songs" ,  backed with out of context quotes/ misguided examples/ experts opinions / etc./ etc.    All the Zep haters  and envy having a field day.  And damage to their reputation and legacy (that Page has tried to preserve and protect for the last  35 years)is at issue:  it's now spiraling out of control ...

Sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand.  Stairway To Heaven is the most famous song in Zep's catalog.  Plant maybe tired of singing it but, he knows it is the song people most identify with him.  For he and Page to admit that they plagiarized it would be tantamount to Deep Purple admitting they plagiarized Smoke on the Water or Queen admitting they plagiarized Bohemian Rhapsody.  Maybe they're rolling the dice and hoping that a victory in this lawsuit will put the matter to rest once and for all.  I also find it interesting that many posters assume that Page is driving the bus for Team Zep.  I wouldn't assume this.  He may have been the band's leader from 1968-1980, but nowadays Plant appears to be the more dynamic and focused of the two men.

Edited by Disco Duck
corrections

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So the Plaintiff have 6 'Expert Witnesses' ready to testify against Zeppelin. One of them
includes the author Denny Somach who wrote Get The Led Out. He plans on telling the jury
that Jimmy was lying when he said  "Mary Poppins inspired Stairway" 
:blink: and it's definitely
from hearing Taurus

For those who want to see who the 'experts' are here are the links.

Against Led Zeppelin:  

https://www.scribd.com/doc/309990844/Led-Zeppelin-Stairway-To-Heaven-Plaintiff-Experts

For Led Zeppelin:  
https://www.scribd.com/doc/309990841/Led-Zeppelin-s-Stairway-To-Heaven-Experts 

Links are provided by @LedZepNews

 

:( I think Zep may need to throw a 'Hail Mary Pass' unless their lawyers have something
cooking. So far I'm not that impressed with them. 




 

Edited by KellyGirl

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Just now, KellyGirl said:

So the Plaintiff have 6 'Expert Witnesses' ready to testify against Zeppelin. One of them
includes the author Denny Somach who wrote Get The Led Out. He plans on telling the jury
that Jimmy was lying when he said  "Mary Poppins inspired Stairway" 
:blink: and it's definitely
from hearing Taurus

For those who want to see who the 'experts' are here are the links.

Against Led Zeppelin:  

https://www.scribd.com/doc/309990844/Led-Zeppelin-Stairway-To-Heaven-Plaintiff-Experts

For Led Zeppelin:  
https://www.scribd.com/doc/309990841/Led-Zeppelin-s-Stairway-To-Heaven-Experts 

Links are provided by @LedZepNews

 

:( I think Zep may need to throw a 'Hail Mary Pass' unless their lawyers have something
cooking. So far I'm not that impressed with them. 




 

The plaintiff must be spending a lot of money on the legal fees and experts.  Did their lawyers take the case on contingency or has someone donated money for the legal expenses?  Does anyone know?

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