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jim6225

Lawsuit over Stairway to Heaven

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3 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Look on the bright side, Kelly; if Jimmy absolutely has to play it in court like he did back in the day, maybe he'll come in dressed in the poppy suit - or dragon suit, it's his prerogative - wired out on coke, with the double-neck Gibson in hand and a Marshall amp all ready to go... I'd kill  to be a juror in that circumstance, wouldn't you???

:lol:

O m g :lol: what a wasted photo opportunity! 72 year old Jimmy worming into his 1977 stage
attire?  As he bends over to pick up his guitar the rear of his pants split. :o   But wouldn't that 
be the luck of it.   He'd  be in a L A court house playing Stairway  for 12 people who could care
less about his playing.  (Can't see a fan being allowed on the jury)  I dunno maybe if Zeppelin's
legal team felt Jimmy playing could help prove something concrete  to make the case.......Although
I'd make Jimmy play beer barrel polka on the accordion
 if it meant Zep would win :banana: 

3 hours ago, Ddladner said:

 

Perhaps the attorney made a huge bet with his friends that he could get Jimmy to play again. :o:P 

HA! :lol: what a thought!!  But lawyer Francis is too douche baggy to think like that.  He's probably
more a New Kids On The Block  fan or some other boy band.  I bet he liked WHAM in the 80s  
:shifty:
 

2 hours ago, cosmic_juice said:

I'm with ya ledded1... Did they?

I don't know for sure,  but I swear that song was never performed while Zep was anywhere near
Spirit....if what I read from the wise owls on the board is true.


***********************************************************************************


Depending on the outcome of this -  it will put the worms back  in the can or open more
up.  It'd  be nice to have Zeppelin in the media again for something other than Randy
California and talk about lifting other musicians songs.  What's ahead for musicians in 2016
onward?   There needs to be a line drawn with what's considered plagiarizing.   It could get so
out of hand.  This case is already proof of that.   More and more cases could happen with the
way music is 'borrowed' down the line these days.   You could have a field day with hip hop
artists and rappers and all the sampling they do.  





 

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So has anything  happened in this court  case,  something about  jury in California  on the 10 of May....?

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Just now, Cecil. said:

So has anything  happened in this court  case,  something about  jury in California  on the 10 of May....?

It has been delayed until June 14.

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1 minute ago, Cookie0024 said:

It has been delayed until June 14.

Ah Thanks Cookie.

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Thanks for the link Cookie!! Love to follow https://twitter.com/LedZepNews on twitter.
Gives me the latest on what's taking place with all things relating to Zeppelin!! :D


The article was an interesting read for sure.  It touches on the possibility of what will and
could take place during the trial.  Something I found interesting is both the potential
disadvantage and (to me) advantage of Jimmy and Robert not being present in the
courtroom to the jury.  A jury is often not as engaged watching a video deposition verse a
live person speaking,  but it's also not as easy to pick up on certain body language and
demeanor during questioning.  i.e.  hands fidgeting,  a leg under a table bouncing,  breathing
rates,  eye contact or lack of.  etc.  Now I don't know Jimmy personally at all - I can only go by
what he exposes in public.  I am sure many of you have watched Jimmy in his interviews.
When the man is uncomfortable I think it shows BIG time in his voice and body language.  He
doesn't hide his uneasiness very well.  He fidgets about,  appears and sounds anxious,  and
when he's asked things that put him in the hot seat he becomes quite evasive and defensive
with his answers.  I am sure Zeppelin's legal team did a good job coaching both he and Robert
on that kind of thing.  I do hope Pagey and Plant are both very relaxed and poised in their
depositions.

He also touches on this new witness Michael Ware. That's basically going to be Francis
trying to convince the jury this guy is credible,  while Zep's side proves he's not.  Unless this
man all of a sudden comes up with something incredible to back his story up,  I want to give my
point to Zeps side on that matter.  Ah but I'm not the one you gotta convince.  It's hopefully 12
people who see Zep as the innocent party. 

I wish the Zep guys luck on this case.  I'm really hoping they get the "W"   :D 

Edited by KellyGirl

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9 hours ago, Cookie0024 said:

I interviewed a copyright and trademark lawyer about the upcoming "Stairway To Heaven" trial. I found it fascinating and he answered a lot of the questions I had about the case.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/copyright-lawyer-explains-led-zeppelins-stairway-to-heaven-trial-2016-5

A very interesting read,this is broken down into a number of easy explanations from good questions without the legalese.Thanks,Led Zeppelin News and the bloke from UK. BUSINESSINSIDER. :)

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I guess my Jury Duty notice got lost in the mail. :(

Cookie or Sam or anyone who knows...I would appreciate it if you could PM me the trial start date and which court it will be at, as I may be able to attend and bear witness on my days off.

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On May 16, 2016 at 11:45 AM, badgeholder said:

The jury will only go by sheet music? Not actually playing the songs? That seems crazy in a case like this. 

Either way it would prove the point in Zeps favor. The sheet music shows how different the arpeggio structure of each measure is, and the main point which is Taurus is ONLY a descending riff pattern, STH is a descending first, followed by ascending second and third, finishing with descending fourth & fifth measures. That is a very different structure and becomes glaringly obvious with sheet music and show the only true similarity lay in the first four notes of the first measure ONLY. I would look at this as a move in the right direction for the Zep team.

Edited by IpMan

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From Led Zep News on Twitter.  Apparently Jimmy, Robert and John Paul WILL be appearing at
the trial after all.  Jones is hoping to help by tesitifying as a witness for them,  along with Brad
Tolinski.

I assume this means no need for the video depositions since Led Zeppelin will be there live in
the courtroom.  (Here comes the media circus now that the band members will be there)

Go figure eh.  Jimmy Page, Robert Plant and John Paul Jones will be Los Angles at the same
time.  If only it was for something other than sitting in a court room......

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1 hour ago, KellyGirl said:

From Led Zep News on Twitter.  Apparently Jimmy, Robert and John Paul WILL be appearing at
the trial after all.  Jones is hoping to help by tesitifying as a witness for them,  along with Brad
Tolinski.

I assume this means no need for the video depositions since Led Zeppelin will be there live in
the courtroom.  (Here comes the media circus now that the band members will be there)

Go figure eh.  Jimmy Page, Robert Plant and John Paul Jones will be Los Angles at the same
time.  If only it was for something other than sitting in a court room......

John Paul Jones? Cool.

But Brad Tolinsky? How is he a material witness? He was not there at the song's compositional or recording stages. Any testimony he can give would be strictly hearsay, wouldn't it? Unless he is being called to the stand as a musical expert?

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53 minutes ago, Strider said:

John Paul Jones? Cool.

But Brad Tolinsky? How is he a material witness? He was not there at the song's compositional or recording stages. Any testimony he can give would be strictly hearsay, wouldn't it? Unless he is being called to the stand as a musical expert?

Editor-in-Chief of Guitar World Magazine for 25 years (1989–2015)

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Brad Tolinksi.  Yeah I wonder what he could offer up on Zeps behalf?  What could he say to a
jury that would work favorably for Zep?  I dont believe he can hurt their case,  but him being a
witness is a bit errr  O__o 
:blink: pour moi too.

Only thing I know is Jimmy and Robert must trust what his testimony is about.  There are not
a lot of journalist they can say that about 
:unsure:  They only have 10 hours to present their case,  
so who they choose as a witness for their side has to offer up something valuable. 

Only thing I can think of is maybe he's a character witness for them vouching they are both
professional and good guys?  I'm sure Francis wishes he could just pass out Richard Cole's book
to the jury before hand.  Hahaha 
:lol:  I don't know. I'm guessing here.  I'm throwing stuff against
the wall and seeing  what will stick people.  

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I believe the best defense is to bring out the sheet music and have a professor of music from a well known university or school such as Julliard or Cornell, testify and bear witness to the numerous compositions which use  the same or very similar lament bass figure going back to the 17th century. Then, whip out Pachalbel's Canon in D major and the more than 200 contemporary pop songs using the exact same figure since 1961 to explain how a figure of music arranged differently is not the same as stealing said music.

It would be one thing if Page used the full four measures of the lament bass used for Taurus in the same fashion, but we are talking only FOUR NOTES of the first measure out of four for Taurus and five for STH. The whole lawsuit is ridiculous and if Zep win, I hope this sets precedence for future cases. I mean, whats next, some unknown asshole from 1973 sues Captain & Tennille for Muskrat Love because of the use of the word Muskrat? Enough is enough.

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12 hours ago, IpMan said:

I believe the best defense is to bring out the sheet music and have a professor of music from a well known university or school such as Julliard or Cornell, testify and bear witness to the numerous compositions which use  the same or very similar lament bass figure going back to the 17th century. Then, whip out Pachalbel's Canon in D major and the more than 200 contemporary pop songs using the exact same figure since 1961 to explain how a figure of music arranged differently is not the same as stealing said music.

It would be one thing if Page used the full four measures of the lament bass used for Taurus in the same fashion, but we are talking only FOUR NOTES of the first measure out of four for Taurus and five for STH. The whole lawsuit is ridiculous and if Zep win, I hope this sets precedence for future cases. I mean, whats next, some unknown asshole from 1973 sues Captain & Tennille for Muskrat Love because of the use of the word Muskrat? Enough is enough.

+1

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14 hours ago, KellyGirl said:

Brad Tolinksi.  Yeah I wonder what he could offer up on Zeps behalf?  What could he say to a
jury that would work favorably for Zep?  I dont believe he can hurt their case,  but him being a
witness is a bit errr  O__o 
:blink: pour moi too.

Only thing I know is Jimmy and Robert must trust what his testimony is about.  There are not
a lot of journalist they can say that about 
:unsure:  They only have 10 hours to present their case,  
so who they choose as a witness for their side has to offer up something valuable. 

Only thing I can think of is maybe he's a character witness for them vouching they are both
professional and good guys?  I'm sure Francis wishes he could just pass out Richard Cole's book
to the jury before hand.  Hahaha 
:lol:  I don't know. I'm guessing here.  I'm throwing stuff against
the wall and seeing  what will stick people.  

He could explain the differences in the notes between the two songs and also show other examples with similarities. (The clip posted earlier in this thread by Giovanni Granata)

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4 hours ago, Versus said:

Sadly Tolinski is not a witness for the defence but for the plaintiffs. Malofiy quoted his interview with Page back in the 1990s

 Versus  you are so right.  Why the heck did I think he was for the defence? :wacko:
Careless reading skills on my part.   Should've known better.  Haha no wonder
some people were puzzled by it.  Thanks for correcting :D 

Edited by KellyGirl

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4 hours ago, Versus said:

Sadly Tolinski is not a witness for the defence but for the plaintiffs. Malofiy quoted his interview with Page back in the 1990s

What did Page say in this interview which is so damning? "Oh, ha, he, he, he....I stole the riff from Taurus to construct STH and Peter threatened to cut off Randy's balls if he ever said anything. He, he, he, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law...MY LAW!!!"

I have read what I believe to  be all of those interviews between Page & Tolinski and I do not recall such an exchange, nor any exchange which could be construed as damning IMO. Any ideas here???

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On 2/28/2016 at 8:26 PM, RIP-IT-UP said:
On 2/28/2016 at 8:26 PM, RIP-IT-UP said:

Page claimed in the interview, as I stated above, that" Spirit was one of the best bands" he ever saw "in the States". This interview was done shortly after TSRTS, because a lot of the questions during the broadcast interview pertained to the movie.   However, the point is that a full 7+ years after playing shows with Spirit/ and or seeing Spirit live (i.e. 1969)-he still said this years later.  Over the years, Page must have seen dozens of bands in the States from the 60's right thru to the time of this interview. And he still chose  to point out Spirit as a favorite.    So , yes he clearly remembered Spirit.  No one would state a band as one of the best if they didn't remember them, yes? ( I won't even go into the fact that Zep put part of Spirit's "Fresh Garbage" tune into their live cover of "As long as I have you" medley, as documented via bootleg in the famous San Francisco 04/27/69 concert.)

 

"I recall seeing the group Spirit use one" [a theremin]
(Jimmy Page, in the book "Tangents within framework" by Howard Mylett, p. 23)

And now all of a sudden he doesn't remember anything;-)

Edited by AnotherNewMember
Formating error

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9 hours ago, AnotherNewMember said:

"I recall seeing the group Spirit use one" [a theremin]
(Jimmy Page, in the book "Tangents within framework" by Howard Mylett, p. 23)

And now all of a sudden he doesn't remember anything;-)

That's the kind of stuff that worries me about Page appearing in person at the trial. If he insists on the stand that he has no memory of Spirit, there's just a ton of stuff out there that could be used to discredit him there. If the scummy plaintiff lawyer starts pulling this stuff out and puts Page on the spot, it could go bad real quick.

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49 minutes ago, Balthazor said:

That's the kind of stuff that worries me about Page appearing in person at the trial. If he insists on the stand that he has no memory of Spirit, there's just a ton of stuff out there that could be used to discredit him there. If the scummy plaintiff lawyer starts pulling this stuff out and puts Page on the spot, it could go bad real quick.

Without a doubt, and beside, what is Jimmy's problem with just saying, "...hell yes I love Spirit, great music and lovely people." What would saying so do to bolster the argument of plagiarism? By that line of reasoning any musician any other musician is influenced by is by extension a victim of plagiarism? That is stupid. So, does that mean Dave Grohl stole all of his music from the Sub-Pop lineup? If so maybe one of Darby Crash's cousins can sue Dave and get the big payoff.

Page needs to pull a Donald Trump here, get on the stand and tell the truth about how he loved Spirit and took influences from many sources, including 18th century sources for the lament bass structure for the opening chords of Stairway. Then when sleazy opposing counsel says, "well, you said here in this deposition you did not remember their music" Page just comes back and says, "In the manner you framed the question I did not remember particular songs per se since it has been decades, however I never said I did not love or appreciate their music."

BAM! Even better than the Chewbacca Defense.

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