Lawsuit over Stairway to Heaven

[KellyGirl]

I don't know who would want to take on this case if it was called a mistrial.  It's already out
there in  the media so finding qualified jury who don't already have a set opinion could  be
difficult.  I'm  not saying it can't be done,  just saying Randy's estate would have to think long
and hard.  Is it worth it?  It's already been 45 years.  If this was a cake walk to get this off the
ground it would have gone to court many many years ago.  Most people with scruples
would've been taking a look at the whole thing and thinking yeah no I'm not touching that one. 
Francis is the unscrupulous one. 

In other news the plaintiff used up all of their 10 hours.  In that time he sure racked up a lot of
wrist slaps from the Judge.  Robert was never even called to the stand.  My guess is because he
can undue everything the super fan said.  Spirit band member already undid what he said in cross
examination.  Unless there is a picture of Robert Plant intently listening and holding tape
recorder while Taurus is being played, than I think it was a waste of time to call on super fan
as a witness.  And as far as the music experts brought on for the plaintiff.  They are opinions only
and not fact.   The one said the two song openings were like 'one song'  then he completely changed
his tune and told Anderson I can tell these are two different pieces.  Well shit I hope so,  otherwise
you're tone deaf and should not be on the stand for this trial giving your 'musical expert opinion

I wrote this in a hurry so I hope it makes sense.   

Edited June 17, 2016 by KellyGirl
Omg my spelling! Ack its awful. Sorry..sigh..

[Balthazor]

3 minutes ago, KellyGirl said:

I don't know who would want to take on this case if it was called a mistrial.  It's already out
there in  the media so finding qualified jury who don't already have a set opinion could  be
difficult.  I'm  not saying it can't be done,  just saying Randy's estate would have to think long
and hard.  Is it worth it?  It's already been 45 years.  If this was a cake walk to get this off the
ground it would have gone to court many many years ago.  Most people with scruples
would've been taking a look at the whole thing and thinking yeah no I'm not touching that one. 
Francis is the unscrupulous one. 

You're talking about people with scruples, but we're talking about lawyers here.

if I was a lawyer prior to this trial I'd have been thinking yeah, not touching that case. But given how far the case has gone, and that it made it this far in the hands of a complete clown, I think I'd be salivating over taking a shot at it for a second time around.

As far as it happening now, I think it's clear that the Robin Thicke "Blurred Lines" case has been a game changer, and almost beyond a doubt prompted this one to be pursued.

I could be totally wrong about this, and frankly I hope that I am, but again we're just talking hypothetically here anyhow. But the way I'm seeing it, it would be like if a football team made it to the Superbowl, but then lost because of a blown field goal by an awful kicker, I wouldn't be thinking oh well, that was our one shot and we blew it; I'd be thinking let's get a better kicker and go back and win next time.

[zepscoda]

Malofiy is no surprise, we've all know guys like this..think back to our high school days...there was always at least one jerk off that would spend his lunch break trying to convince you that Alex Lifeson or Eddie Van Hallen was better than Jimmy, and that Zep was over rated.... Now he's grown up to be a jerk off lawer....I can't wait to see what karma has up it's sleeve for this ass hole.

[Balthazor]

54 minutes ago, AnotherNewMember said:

I don't know if this has been posted here yet, but here's an audio clip of an interview with Randy California just a few weeks before his death. It's about STH of course...:

http://turnmeondeadman.com/randy-californias-thoughts-on-stairway-to-heaven/

Screw him. I hate to speak ill of a dead guy, but it would be like claiming credit for Michelangelo's "David" because you're the guy who delivered the marble. In so many of the stories I've read about the trial, they keep talking about the opening guitar part as if that's the only portion of Stairway that matters. If Stairway had been seven minutes of that finger-picked arpeggio, it would not have been the monster hit that it was. That's just undeniable. Like I've said before, even if Page did swipe that guitar part from Taurus, he transformed it into a song which was and is totally unique. That's what musicians do. They start with what they like, then they transform it into something uniquely their own. That's how music works, and how it's always worked. California was just trying to stake some sort of claim onto what became the biggest song in rock, and even if he did write the portion in question, he didn't write Stairway. He wrote Taurus, a song which would've been utterly forgotten were it not for Stairway. At least Jake Holmes actually had a leg to stand on regarding Dazed. California is basically saying that a little part of his forgotten song sounds a lot like a little part of the biggest song in rock, ergo he wrote the biggest song in rock. It's ludicrous. It would be like saying that because I once wrote a book that began with the line "It was the best of times" I therefore wrote A Tale Of Two Cities.

Sorry to go off on such a rant, but it just hacks me off to no end.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Balthazor

[Balthazor]

...and while searching for news on the trial, I came across this, which may be the most idiotic story to ever grace the internet.

http://mashable.com/2016/06/16/led-zeppelin-stairway-heaven-trial-bron-yr-aur/#2SiWlLZ9j8q3

[mack]

The latest

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-3647660/Stairway-Heaven-chords-date-300-years-copyright-trial-told.html

[mack]

And later still

 

JPJ speaks

 

http://www.kirkintilloch-herald.co.uk/news/showbiz/jimmy-page-never-revealed-he-had-five-spirit-albums-la-court-told-1-4158182

[Walter]

 

[Balthazor]

7 minutes ago, mack said:

And later still

 

JPJ speaks

 

http://www.kirkintilloch-herald.co.uk/news/showbiz/jimmy-page-never-revealed-he-had-five-spirit-albums-la-court-told-1-4158182

It's awesome to hear from Jones. I'm still expecting to see a story which writes, "Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, and...um...that guy who played bass...entered the courtroom today..."

[The Pagemeister]

Earnings of  'Stairway to Heaven' at center of fourth day of copyright infringement trial

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-led-zeppelin-copyright-20160617-snap-story.html

 

 

[anniemouse]

On an interesting sidenote Robert has a tour starting July 1st. Could you see that being delayed.

[Reggie29]

Even a non-musician can see the difference.

[NealR2000]

Typically, at this point in the proceedings, with the plaintiff having made most of his case, and the defendants still yet to respond with theirs, the overwhelming perceptions should be an easy win for the plaintiff.  I simply don't feel that this is the vibe, and that if anything, the vibe is between even and slightly on the side of the band.  With them still yet to respond, I can't help but think that they will make a pretty compelling case for the verdict to go in their favor.  I'm sure that the band's legal bill will be high, but with their most famous song at stake, this is more than about money and more about their reputations.

 

 

[Balthazor]

Another good article from Rolling Stone:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/led-zeppelin-stairway-trial-gets-ugly-as-plaintiffs-rest-their-case-20160618

Here's an interesting tidbit:

With several defense witnesses remaining on the docket - including, potentially, Page's co-defendant, Zeppelin frontman Robert Plant -  Judge Klausner made an unusual exception: Malofiy would be allowed to cross-examine all of Led Zeppelin's witnesses for just 10 minutes each.

Sounds like Klausner is really putting the shackles on Malofiy there, maybe because he's tired of Malofiy's nonsense, or maybe because he's seeing that the case is bogus and just wants it over with. Whatever the reason, it's good news for Zeppelin.

[Balthazor]

1 hour ago, NealR2000 said:

Typically, at this point in the proceedings, with the plaintiff having made most of his case, and the defendants still yet to respond with theirs, the overwhelming perceptions should be an easy win for the plaintiff.  I simply don't feel that this is the vibe, and that if anything, the vibe is between even and slightly on the side of the band.  With them still yet to respond, I can't help but think that they will make a pretty compelling case for the verdict to go in their favor.  I'm sure that the band's legal bill will be high, but with their most famous song at stake, this is more than about money and more about their reputations.

I agree. It's of course hard to know without actually being there, but everything I've read makes it sound as though at this point it's looking pretty good for Zeppelin, and they only just started with their defense. Plus it sounds like Page came off mostly as sympathetic and likable, which is a big help. It's also worth nothing that when I read the comments posted to any of these stories, at least what I'm seeing is that the overwhelming majority of them seem to think that the lawsuit is frivolous and that Zeppelin should win. It may not be the most accurate gauge of public opinion since there's probably a relatively high proportion of Zeppelin fans who are reading and commenting on these stories, but still, if most of the Average Joes reading Yahoo News sides with the band, it would seem to increase the likelihood that the Average Joes sitting on the jury would also side with the band.

[The Pagemeister]

Led Zeppelin 'Stairway' Trial Gets Ugly

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/led-zeppelin-stairway-trial-gets-ugly-as-plaintiffs-rest-their-case-20160618

When they say the "trial got ugly", do they mean combative, or are they referring to that drawing of Plant?...

Edited June 18, 2016 by The Pagemeister

[Balthazor]

Here's another good story which discusses the wider implications of the case and it's impact on the music business

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/18/if-led-zeppelin-goes-down-we-all-burn.html

[badgeholder]

I'm getting a kick out of all the artist renderings. No drawing of Jones? 

[Strider]

2 hours ago, Balthazor said:

I agree. It's of course hard to know without actually being there, but everything I've read makes it sound as though at this point it's looking pretty good for Zeppelin, and they only just started with their defense. Plus it sounds like Page came off mostly as sympathetic and likable, which is a big help. It's also worth nothing that when I read the comments posted to any of these stories, at least what I'm seeing is that the overwhelming majority of them seem to think that the lawsuit is frivolous and that Zeppelin should win. It may not be the most accurate gauge of public opinion since there's probably a relatively high proportion of Zeppelin fans who are reading and commenting on these stories, but still, if most of the Average Joes reading Yahoo News sides with the band, it would seem to increase the likelihood that the Average Joes sitting on the jury would also side with the band.

 

1 hour ago, The Pagemeister said:

Led Zeppelin 'Stairway' Trial Gets Ugly

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/led-zeppelin-stairway-trial-gets-ugly-as-plaintiffs-rest-their-case-20160618

When they say the "trial got ugly", do they mean combative, or are they referring to that drawing of Plant?...

There are a lot of things I am finding puzzling about this case...i.e. "Taurus" is an instrumental and the beef is about Page's opening acoustic part, which Robert Plant was not the creator of, so why is he even part of the lawsuit? Malofiy seems to be just throwing shit everywhere at everyone and hoping something sticks.

What a colossal waste of everyone's time and money. The sad thing is even when Led Zeppelin win, most people will just remember that they were sued and not whether they were exonerated. The stigma of being thieves is already attached to them in a lot of haters' eyes. I see it in the comment sections of the articles and YouTube.

[sixpense]

38 minutes ago, Strider said:

 

There are a lot of things I am finding puzzling about this case...i.e. "Taurus" is an instrumental and the beef is about Page's opening acoustic part, which Robert Plant was not the creator of, so why is he even part of the lawsuit? Malofiy seems to be just throwing shit everywhere at everyone and hoping something sticks.

What a colossal waste of everyone's time and money. The sad thing is even when Led Zeppelin win, most people will just remember that they were sued and not whether they were exonerated. The stigma of being thieves is already attached to them in a lot of haters' eyes. I see it in the comment sections of the articles and YouTube.

Plant is included because he is listed as co-writer. The plaintiff can try to pick two pockets instead of one!

If you look at Whole Lotta Love, it was more on the lyrics side vs the music where the issue was regarding writing credits; but all the writers of that song paid for it.

The ones who make out in all of this are the lawyers. The judges and lawyers are involved in this perpetual cycle where one feeds the other.

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by sixpense
Addition of material.

[Mercurious]

2 hours ago, The Pagemeister said:

Led Zeppelin 'Stairway' Trial Gets Ugl

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/led-zeppelin-stairway-trial-gets-ugly-as-plaintiffs-rest-their-case-20160618

When they say the "trial got ugly", do they mean combative, or are they referring to that drawing of Plant?...

It seems the combativeness was between plaintiff atty Malofiy and defense musicologist Dr. Lawrence Ferrara, according to Pamela Chelin, who tweeted up-to-the-minute updates from the trial all week.  

Pamela Chelin ‏@PamelaChelin  22h22 hours ago

Malofiy is currently arguing with defense music expert Dr. Lawrence Ferrara. And I don't mean the kind of argument that uses legalese.

Ms. Chelin is a real journalist, having been published in LA Weekly and LA Times, along with the music papers like Rolling stone and Spin, so it's great to have such qualified eyes and ears in the courtroom.  She's got a better grasp of what's happening than the writer from Rolling Stone, Matt Diehl, who seems to cracking under the strain of having to file copy every day.  

Come Friday, day five of the proceedings, it became clear that Mr. Diehl needed a day off. He makes his third "Game of Thrones" reference of the week, comparing a statement by Led Zeppelin lead lawyer related to Randy Wolfe's heirs to something that would be said on the TV show.  He was clearly frustrated by the technical approach of Ferrara, Led Zeppelin's academic expert, and began his article with confusing passages about JPJ's confirmation of the Bron-yr-Aur origins of "Stairway" being "a surprising assertion Page had also made under oath Thursday."  Zep fans who've read the many books know the history of the song, and that information is on the wikipedia pages about the band (written by those same expert fans).  By and large, Diehl's Friday article is mush.

I've never thought Rolling Stone was a great publication, and back in the day they were far more giving to band's like Kiss than to people like Lou Reed and Iggy Pop and early Zep, those who were really driving rock forward into the ditch where it belonged.  They ignored the VU and the Yardbirds on the avant garde in the 1960s, didn't like the MC5, didn't do much for Iggy, didn't support punk in the beginning, didn't like scronk, ignored hard rock in the 70s but celebrated "hair metal" in the 1980s, didn't support noise, and sure hated Led Zeppelin.  I wouldn't trust Jan Wenner to cover a cub scout wood car competition much less this trial.   

All that said ... I hope Meade feels better on Tuesday when Led Zeppelin proceeds with its defense.

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by Mercurious

[Ddladner]

3 hours ago, The Pagemeister said:

Led Zeppelin 'Stairway' Trial Gets Ugly

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/led-zeppelin-stairway-trial-gets-ugly-as-plaintiffs-rest-their-case-20160618

When they say the "trial got ugly", do they mean combative, or are they referring to that drawing of Plant?...

The drawings are atrocious.  

I love that they played Heart's Kennedy Center Awards cover of STH...for the listening pleasure of everyone in the courtroom. I have watched that video countless times myself.

The bizarreness of the trial continues:

I am still waiting for Malofiy to say:  "If Page, Plant and Jones will agree to play STH for the courtroom, we can dismiss this case."  Then, he goes home to collect his bet (that he can reunite LZ) winnings.  

[Strider]

On 6/17/2016 at 2:34 PM, Balthazor said:

It would be like saying that because I once wrote a book that began with the line "It was the best of times" I therefore wrote A Tale Of Two Cities.

That analogy is so brilliant, I'm stealing it! Beers on me. 

[Mercurious]

The most interesting and, ultimately most satisfying, revelation from this past week is that Led Zeppelin and Spirit never toured together, upending the long-held assumption that they were on the road together in 1968-69 during the very beginnings of Led Zeppelin.  Secondary to that is the brand new information offered into the record Friday by John Paul Jones that he probably didn't realize he was playing Spirit's "Fresh Garbage" when he added the riff to the "As Long As I Have You Medley."  

Down through the years, these two notions have been the linchpins that suggest that the intro to "Stairway" was "Taurus" embellished and that Page probably swiped it because he does that ever so often (a la "The Rain Song" - the opening chords are an intentional tribute to George Harrison's "Something").  The first assumption -- the shared proximity on those early tours - is one of the key points that the judge cited bringing this case before the jury, and it's the causal connection behind the lawsuit.  The second notion implies that someone in Led Zeppelin had listened to Spirit's first album, which had both "Fresh Garbage" and "Taurus" on it.

Last week we learned that they never toured together at all -- far from it, in fact. They played on the same stage on the same day twice, once in 1968 in Denver, and once in 1970 at a festival in Texas.  On those two days, they never met; they never spoke; they passed like two ships in different lanes on the ocean of middle America.  Hardcore Zep fans have known this for a few years at least since the internet exploded, but the "touring together" assumption was accepted reality in the 70s, 80s and 90s; it was the glue that held the Taurus-Stairway idea together.  That glue of proximity dissolved last week in court, and as far as the jury knows, there is no causal connection between the two bands.  There is none, and it really hurts the Wolfe Trust case.

That Jones was just jamming and probably didn't know about "Fresh Garbage" means that the bootleggers were the ones who identified the riff in the first place, combined with a line or two that Plant might have been howling (which does seem to indicate that Plant probably had listened to Spirit's first album).  We'll find out next week.  However -- and this is key because Page's work is on trial here - it clearly removes Jimmy Page from any creative connection to Spirit's first record.  Without a physical or creative connection -- and Page and Plant certainly didn't take the record with them to Bron-yr-aur -- there is no case, something that Randy Wolfe knew all along. 

We know now that the reason Wolfe never sued was not that he was such a cool guy (another long-held belief) but that he of course knew he had never met Led Zeppelin, and had scarcely been in the same building with any of them.  The task of proving that Jimmy Page had ever heard "Taurus" 1968-1971 would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It's beginning to look like Page had truly never heard the song until his son-in-law played it for him a few years ago.  Knowing this as part of the court record they've seen and heard, I don't see how this jury rules against Jimmy Page. 

Edited June 18, 2016 by Mercurious

[Strider]

1 hour ago, Mercurious said:

The most interesting and, ultimately most satisfying, revelation from this past week is that Led Zeppelin and Spirit never toured together, upending the long-held assumption that they were on the road together in 1968-69 during the very beginnings of Led Zeppelin.  Secondary to that is the brand new information offered into the record Friday by John Paul Jones that he probably didn't realize he was playing Spirit's "Fresh Garbage" when he added the riff to the "As Long As I Have You Medley."  

Down through the years, these two notions have been the linchpins that suggest that the intro to "Stairway" was "Taurus" embellished and that Page probably swiped it because he does that ever so often (a la "The Rain Song" - the opening chords are an intentional tribute to George Harrison's "Something").  The first assumption -- the shared proximity on those early tours - is one of the key points that the judge cited bringing this case before the jury, and it's the causal connection behind the lawsuit.  The second notion implies that someone in Led Zeppelin had listened to Spirit's first album, which had both "Fresh Garbage" and "Taurus" on it.

Last week we learned that they never toured together at all -- far from it, in fact. They played on the same stage on the same day twice, once in 1968 in Denver, and once in 1970 at a festival in Texas.  On those two days, they never met; they never spoke; they passed like two ships in different lanes on the ocean of middle America.  Hardcore Zep fans have known this for a few years at least since the internet exploded, but the "touring together" assumption was accepted reality in the 70s, 80s and 90s; it was the glue that held the Taurus-Stairway idea together.  That glue of proximity dissolved last week in court, and as far as the jury knows, there is no causal connection between the two bands.  There is none, and it really hurts the Wolfe Trust case.

That Jones was just jamming and probably didn't know about "Fresh Garbage" means that the bootleggers were the ones who identified the riff in the first place, combined with a line or two that Plant might have been howling (which does seem to indicate that Plant probably had listened to Spirit's first album).  We'll find out next week.  However -- and this is key because Page's work is on trial here - it clearly removes Jimmy Page from any creative connection to Spirit's first record.  Without a physical or creative connection -- and Page and Plant certainly didn't take the record with them to Bron-yr-aur -- there is no case, something that Randy Wolfe knew all along. 

We know now that the reason Wolfe never sued was not that he was such a cool guy (another long-held belief) but that he of course knew he had never met Led Zeppelin, and had scarcely been in the same building with any of them.  The task of proving that Jimmy Page had ever heard "Taurus" 1968-1971 would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible.  It's beginning to look like Page had truly never heard the song until his son-in-law played it for him a few years ago.  Knowing this as part of the court record they've seen and heard, I don't see how this jury rules against Jimmy Page. 

Regarding the first part, I never thought Led Zeppelin toured with Spirit, nor did I ever hear it mentioned, even in the 1970s. Led Zeppelin's early touring partners have always been noted, from the time I first started reading about the band back in 1969, as Vanilla Fudge and Iron Butterfly.

The second part is what I am having trouble believing and I wonder how the jury will react. I clearly recall Jimmy mentioning early on that he liked the band Spirit. Spirit, Kaleidoscope, Little Feat...those are the three bands that stick out in my mind as Jimmy mentioning in the press as bands he enjoyed.

Then to have the band jamming the riff from Fresh Garbage into the ALAIHY medley nearly every night on their first U.S. tour, and then claim they never heard that song, either? That is a bit far-fetched to me. Plus, it is so unnecessary. Admitting hearing "Fresh Garbage" is not proof that they also heard "Taurus". One could have heard one without the other. And you have to had stayed awake hearing "Taurus" before getting to the notes in question.

Considering much they were into music, some of JP's and JPJ's testimony sounds odd. What next...Jones claiming never to have heard of the Isley Brothers' "It's Your Thing", even though he played the riff nearly every time in the breakdown part of"Communication Breakdown"?