Lawsuit over Stairway to Heaven

[Mercurious]

1 hour ago, Strider said:

Regarding the first part, I never thought Led Zeppelin toured with Spirit, nor did I ever hear it mentioned, even in the 1970s. Led Zeppelin's early touring partners have always been noted, from the time I first started reading about the band back in 1969, as Vanilla Fudge and Iron Butterfly.

I figured as much r.e. the more hardcore fans from way back.  I wasn't old enough to buy my first Led Zep record (the fourth album) until 1979.  From there, you had to dig in the bins of used magazine shops to find anything, then have Hammer of the Gods, which isn't much to go on, and so on.   Every once in a while the Spirit-Stairway thing would come up and you didn't have much ammo until the last decade or so.

1 hour ago, Strider said:

Then to have the band jamming the riff from Fresh Garbage into the ALAIHY medley nearly every night on their first U.S. tour, and then claim they never heard that song, either? That is a bit far-fetched to me. Plus, it is so unnecessary.

Is it far fetched?  I just did a side by side listen twice, and all I hear is the bass line.  Page is obviously not referencing anything Randy California played and Plant is making up lyrics of his own, not singing the melody, never refers to any of the Spirit Lyrics.  I think they're just jamming to this bass line Jones started playing. 

Here's Spirit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7MQ5rxUZsc

Here's Zep.  I think the bootleggers are the guys who labelled it "Fresh Garbage."   Zep may very well have just been jamming.

 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Mercurious
just realized they are jamming Miles-Monk's "Bag's Groove" at 9:24. How cool is that? It also furtherindicates that the bootleg makers don't have a clear idea what Led Zep is playing through the "As long as I have you" Medley, but labelled it nonetheless

[mack]

Closing arguments from the plaintiff should be interesting.

 

Poor Randy California who drowned trying to save his son versus the evil incarnate that are Jimmy Page and Robert Plant

 

SARCASM everyone

 

Lawyers.............

 

 

[DogsoverLava]

7 hours ago, Strider said:

Regarding the first part, I never thought Led Zeppelin toured with Spirit, nor did I ever hear it mentioned, even in the 1970s. Led Zeppelin's early touring partners have always been noted, from the time I first started reading about the band back in 1969, as Vanilla Fudge and Iron Butterfly.

The second part is what I am having trouble believing and I wonder how the jury will react. I clearly recall Jimmy mentioning early on that he liked the band Spirit. Spirit, Kaleidoscope, Little Feat...those are the three bands that stick out in my mind as Jimmy mentioning in the press as bands he enjoyed.

Then to have the band jamming the riff from Fresh Garbage into the ALAIHY medley nearly every night on their first U.S. tour, and then claim they never heard that song, either? That is a bit far-fetched to me. Plus, it is so unnecessary. Admitting hearing "Fresh Garbage" is not proof that they also heard "Taurus". One could have heard one without the other. And you have to had stayed awake hearing "Taurus" before getting to the notes in question.

Considering much they were into music, some of JP's and JPJ's testimony sounds odd. What next...Jones claiming never to have heard of the Isley Brothers' "It's Your Thing", even though he played the riff nearly every time in the breakdown part of"Communication Breakdown"?

This just tells me that your opinion here is of very little value.  If you've ever been in a band, or a touring band - you'd have the experience of having worked out all kinds of Jams and riffs that turned out to be existing songs --- A jam based on a riff is very easy to spontaneously create without knowing it already existed --- almost every single musician can tell you about the experience of working up things only to find out after the fact that there's a very similar or at times almost exactly the same song/riff/groove already out there. It's so common that I know world famous musicians that have had to scrap whole recordings after someone walked into a session and said - "hey - this song sounds like ______" --  I've literally seen them walk away from completed master tapes of finished material.   It happens in music - it happens in comedy with jokes -- it happens in art/photography..... it happens -- it's the very nature of the creative process.

That liability is always present in the creative process.

It is true that our brains absorbs stuff unconsciously -- sometimes we hear stuff without knowing we've heard it so when it comes out in a jam (and you get that rush of excitement of having spontaneously created something cool) we are not aware that what we thought was a spontaneous creation actually was influenced by something rattling around in the unconscious.  But isn't that the nature of creativity itself? Isn't that the nature of all creativity? --- That it's a derivative in some way of our experience in the world?

That's why the implications of this case are so wide ranging and fraught with real jeopardy -- because almost everything is a tiny bit derivative. Knowing that this motif has been used time and time again doesn't diminish Stairway or make it less creative -- it makes it part of a creative tradition -- in some ways it proves and validates it's originality because it is precisely a product of the creative process itself -- which is fully dialogic.

Anyway -- just some thoughts and maybe something to help you get beyond the idea that JPJ's claims or Jimmy's claims are far fetched here.

Edited June 19, 2016 by DogsoverLava
Spelling

[KellyGirl]

9 hours ago, Balthazor said:

Another good article from Rolling Stone:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/led-zeppelin-stairway-trial-gets-ugly-as-plaintiffs-rest-their-case-20160618

Here's an interesting tidbit:

With several defense witnesses remaining on the docket - including, potentially, Page's co-defendant, Zeppelin frontman Robert Plant -  Judge Klausner made an unusual exception: Malofiy would be allowed to cross-examine all of Led Zeppelin's witnesses for just 10 minutes each.

Sounds like Klausner is really putting the shackles on Malofiy there, maybe because he's tired of Malofiy's nonsense, or maybe because he's seeing that the case is bogus and just wants it over with. Whatever the reason, it's good news for Zeppelin.

To the bolded part.  Do we know why?  Is this normal?  I think it's a good thing definitely. 
Malofiy has been the butt of many jokes of the trial.  It sounds like the court room has
erupted several times in laugher at his expense.  And either it's the vibe I'm getting off
Twitter  + reporters or it's actually happening,  but Jimmy  is being delightfully charming, 
witty and cheeky  on the stand.  His demeanor in the court room sounds like it's been quite
relaxed.  Not cocky,  arrogant or stuffy.   I can't answer how Plant has been since he has
yet to be on the stand.  Sounds like there's been some Jimbert moments though during
small breaks.   Speaking of Robert....

Is there any particular reason why Robert going on the stand is a question mark for the
defense? Is he some kind of liability if he opens his mouth?  I would have thought he would
have already testified, but I kind of question what possibly he can offer.  I only ask because
so far both sides seem content on having him be a courtroom decoration. Rumblings say
Jimmy could testify again but Robert is up in the air (from tweets I have seen)  Jones I read 
is more than likely finished
 
Thanks so much to everyone  for linking up so many great updates   

[TheGreatOne]

There has not been any sightings of Page & Plant wandering around LA ? Or seen eating at a restaurant ?   It's understandable they best to be out of the spotlight or away from press till court is over.

Wondering what they doing ?  Jamming out together in the hotel room; Plant has a harmonica and Page an acoustic jamming and eating Chinese takeout.

[Mercurious]

5 hours ago, KellyGirl said:

To the bolded part.  Do we know why?  Is this normal?  I think it's a good thing definitely. 
Malofiy has been the butt of many jokes of the trial.  It sounds like the court room has
erupted several times in laugher at his expense.  And either it's the vibe I'm getting off
Twitter  + reporters or it's actually happening,  but Jimmy  is being delightfully charming, 
witty and cheeky  on the stand.  

Malofiy's antics seem to be  prejudicing the jury against the plaintiff's. Mal's clients.  The judge wants to limit the drama as well as his own liability because he would prefer that what happens here not add another case to the Appellate Court docket.  If Malofiy becomes the issue, then ineffective counsel to the point of jury prejudice would be grounds for an appeal (not that it would necessarily be accepted as grounds for an appeal).   Klausner would want a clean verdict here -- no appeals by anyone ... 

To your other question - yes - judges have miles of discretion -- they can rule what they want, do what they want, and if you were to ask a judge the question of whether limiting a lawyer's cross-exam is typical, they would tell you that nothing is typical and everything occurs on a case by case basis.  Of course that's BS, especially when it comes to sentencing, but that's another topic.  Judges are the purist minds in the land, they admit no trends in decision-making.

[Mercurious]

6 hours ago, DogsoverLava said:

That liability is always present in the creative process.

Great comments.  Do take some time and listen to Spirit's "Fresh Garbage" and the LEd Zep "As Long As I have you" medley.  You'll have to listen to it a couple of times because on the first run you'll wonder why Spirit's "Fresh Garbage" is relevant to what Page and Plant may have heard consciously or subconsciously.   What Page and Plant are doing in the Medley has nothing to do with Spirit's song.  It really is like they never heard it.  The Bootleggers may have mis-labelled what was happening there.    The 12-note bass line Jones plays might be from somewhere else (sounds spy movie soundtrack stuff, maybe jones picked it up in the studio.  Spirit AND jones may have lifted it from the same source.)    

Based on what Page and Plant and Bonham are doing, there is no evidence that Led Zep heard even "Fresh Garbage", much less "Taurus".    I knew the suit was frivolous all along, I didn't realize until today how unrooted in reality it is.   I don't think the judge did either.  Judge Klausner thought there was proximity and some familiarity reflected in "Fresh Garbage"   but we know now that there was neither.    

[rm2551]

6 hours ago, DogsoverLava said:

This just tells me that your opinion here is of very little value.  If you've ever been in a band, or a touring band - you'd have the experience of having worked out all kinds of Jams and riffs that turned out to be existing songs --- A jam based on a riff is very easy to spontaneously create without knowing it already existed --- almost every single musician can tell you about the experience of working up things only to find out after the fact that there's a very similar or at times almost exactly the same song/riff/groove already out there. It's so common that I know world famous musicians that have had to scrap whole recordings after someone walked into a session and said - "hey - this song sounds like ______" --  I've literally seen them walk away from completed master tapes of finished material.   It happens in music - it happens in comedy with jokes -- it happens in art/photography..... it happens -- it's the very nature of the creative process.

That liability is always present in the creative process.

It is true that our brains absorbs stuff unconsciously -- sometimes we hear stuff without knowing we've heard it so when it comes out in a jam (and you get that rush of excitement of having spontaneously created something cool) we are not aware that what we thought was a spontaneous creation actually was influenced by something rattling around in the unconscious.  But isn't that the nature of creativity itself? Isn't that the nature of all creativity? --- That it's a derivative in some way of our experience in the world?

That's why the implications of this case are so wide ranging and fraught with real jeopardy -- because almost everything is a tiny bit derivative. Knowing that this motif has been used time and time again doesn't diminish Stairway or make it less creative -- it makes it part of a creative tradition -- in some ways it proves and validates it's originality because it is precisely a product of the creative process itself -- which is fully dialogic.

Anyway -- just some thoughts and maybe something to help you get beyond the idea that JPJ's claims or Jimmy's claims are far fetched here.

That was a good read.

[Strider]

8 hours ago, Mercurious said:

Is it far fetched?  I just did a side by side listen twice, and all I hear is the bass line.  Page is obviously not referencing anything Randy California played and Plant is making up lyrics of his own, not singing the melody, never refers to any of the Spirit Lyrics.  I think they're just jamming to this bass line Jones started playing. 

Here's Spirit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7MQ5rxUZsc

Here's Zep.  I think the bootleggers are the guys who labelled it "Fresh Garbage."   Zep may very well have just been jamming.

 

You listened to only one clip, which happened to be one of the last performances of the "As Long As I Have You" medley and by then the band had expanded the original "Fresh Garbage" riff into something different.  But if you go back to when the band first started playing the medley, you can hear Jimmy and Jones hewing closer to the "Fresh Garbage" riff. Here is a clip from a January 1969 show at the Fillmore:

And, yes, Robert Plant never sang the lyrics to the song, unlike "It's Your Thing", which he did sing a couple times when they jammed during "Communication Breakdown". But let us not be naive here, for it serves no purpose. During those early shows, Led Zeppelin would break into spontaneous jams with bits of Jeff Beck's "Rice Pudding", Cream's "Cat's Squirrel", Miles Davis' "Bag's Groove", Bach's "Bouree", "Spirit's "Fresh Garbage", among others. Are you going to tell me that all of those bits the band just started playing on their own without having heard the original songs? Which makes more sense? That...or that Jimmy, Robert, Jones, and Bonham, being music buffs with wide-ranging tastes and interests, in the spirit of comraderie decided to give a tip of the hat to some musicians and songs they liked by incorporating them in their live shows?

And there was nothing WRONG with that! Bands everywhere were doing the same thing. In a concert, all is fair game. It is only when releasing a live album that a band has to be careful about acknowledging source material for jams and cover songs. Yes, there is a possibility Jones and Page both came up with a riff out of the blue that sounded like "Fresh Garbage". But I think it more probable that they heard the song on the radio or somewhere, and it sounded cool to them, and either subconsciously or not, decided it would make a nice jam during "As Long As I Have You".

 

7 hours ago, DogsoverLava said:

This just tells me that your opinion here is of very little value.  If you've ever been in a band, or a touring band - you'd have the experience of having worked out all kinds of Jams and riffs that turned out to be existing songs --- A jam based on a riff is very easy to spontaneously create without knowing it already existed --- almost every single musician can tell you about the experience of working up things only to find out after the fact that there's a very similar or at times almost exactly the same song/riff/groove already out there. It's so common that I know world famous musicians that have had to scrap whole recordings after someone walked into a session and said - "hey - this song sounds like ______" --  I've literally seen them walk away from completed master tapes of finished material.   It happens in music - it happens in comedy with jokes -- it happens in art/photography..... it happens -- it's the very nature of the creative process.

That liability is always present in the creative process.

It is true that our brains absorbs stuff unconsciously -- sometimes we hear stuff without knowing we've heard it so when it comes out in a jam (and you get that rush of excitement of having spontaneously created something cool) we are not aware that what we thought was a spontaneous creation actually was influenced by something rattling around in the unconscious.  But isn't that the nature of creativity itself? Isn't that the nature of all creativity? --- That it's a derivative in some way of our experience in the world?

That's why the implications of this case are so wide ranging and fraught with real jeopardy -- because almost everything is a tiny bit derivative. Knowing that this motif has been used time and time again doesn't diminish Stairway or make it less creative -- it makes it part of a creative tradition -- in some ways it proves and validates it's originality because it is precisely a product of the creative process itself -- which is fully dialogic.

Anyway -- just some thoughts and maybe something to help you get beyond the idea that JPJ's claims or Jimmy's claims are far fetched here.

I knew my post would be unpopular. Frankly, the only opinion of value at the moment is the jury's...and the judge's.

I am not here to play fanboy. I like to look at certain issues from the standpoint of a dispassionate objective party. The funny thing is, we both share the same feelings about what this lawsuit means and the stranglehold on musical creativity it would impose should Spirit win the case.

But I seem to be the only one here who thinks it is a bad idea to run away from the idea that Led Zeppelin knew of Spirit before writing "Stairway to Heaven". I believe it should not matter. Do you see the Rolling Stones claiming ignorance of Chuck Berry, even though half their songs are based on his riffs?

There is no connection between Jimmy and Jones admitting they heard "Fresh Garbage" and their writing "Stairway to Heaven". One does not have anything to do with the other. With all the interviews Jimmy has given in the past where he mentions Spirit, a halfway decent lawyer would be able to take their current testimony and twist it enough to cause doubt in the jury's mind. Jones never went to a rock concert? Ok...I suppose that is feasible. But any non-fanboy could see how that might seem hard to believe. 

Instead of acting afraid of any mention of Spirit, they should confront it head-on, secure in the knowledge that "Stairway to Heaven"'s greatness has nothing to do with "Taurus". Randy California does not own those notes, as Led Zeppelin has adequately proven by all the prior music samples exhibited. By going out of their way to disavow any knowledge of Spirit's existence, when previous interviews and performances suggest at least some awareness, it may give the jury the impression that Jimmy and Jones were not forthcoming in their testimony.

Let us hope I am wrong. I don't think this lawsuit has any more merit than the rest of you do. It would be a travesty if they have to give songwriting credit (and money) to Spirit. If Spirit wins, the floodgates would be open for any shyster to go after musicians. The Slim Harpo estate could sue ZZ Top for "La Grange" plagiarizing "Hip Hip Shake". Horace Silver could go after Steely Dan for "Rikki Don't Lose That Number". Chuck Berry after the Rolling Stones for...well, pick any number of songs. Bruce Springsteen after The War on Drugs for "Dancing in the Dark". 

It would stifle and kill any kind of musical cross-pollination and innovation. It would also create a climate of fear and repercussion. You think the music scene is bad now? Just wait and see what happens if Spirit wins. Oy vey.

[PlanetPage]

....With you Robert, Jimmy, Jason, John Paul Jones, all moments in the Divine Universe happen for a reason, Magnificient Legacy of Led Zeppelin will shine always, a reminder it is for us for Greed of Material Wealth and its' purpose, this is all it is...it is a moment in time, it will pass, like all of the others, James Patrick Page you will remain ruling the hearts of every generation around the world, as you always have....no worries!!

 

 

[zeplz71]

 

[Patrick Aloyysiuus]

14 hours ago, TheGreatOne said:

There has not been any sightings of Page & Plant wandering around LA ? Or seen eating at a restaurant ?   It's understandable they best to be out of the spotlight or away from press till court is over.

Wondering what they doing ?  Jamming out together in the hotel room; Plant has a harmonica and Page an acoustic jamming and eating Chinese takeout.

check the rainbow

[Patrick Aloyysiuus]

On 5/21/2014 at 11:34 AM, Strider said:

 

Ugh...that woman's voice was annoying as hell. How can you Canucks stand listening to her?germans

 

[Mercurious]

9 hours ago, Strider said:

You listened to only one clip, which happened to be one of the last performances of the "As Long As I Have You" medley and by then the band had expanded the original "Fresh Garbage" riff into something different.  But if you go back to when the band first started playing the medley, you can hear Jimmy and Jones hewing closer to the "Fresh Garbage" riff. Here is a clip from a January 1969 show at the Fillmore:

Yes, Jimmy is with Jones hewing closer to the riff, and we hear Bonham shuffle a bit into the hippie-Latino cha-cha-cha that Spirit begins with.  Spirit's song departs from the riff into the chorus and then swings into a Coltrane-type middle section.  It's very latino jazz rock fusion. They abandon a great riff.  Zeppelin agrees with none of that, and sticks to the riff, piecing out an improv over that great bass line.  It doesn't sound like Jimmy has much familiarity with Spirit's song.  I am entirely biased, of course, and I do not want to believe that Jones is lying when he says he doesn't remember who brought it in.  Based on who's doing what (Plant again doesn't reference the Spirit lyric) it's either Jones or Page, possibly Bonham.  I'm leaning toward the rhythm section because it doesn't sound to me that Jimmy and Robert have much familiarity with how Spirit handles the riff, or are purposefully avoiding it because they don't like how Spirit marooned such a cool riff.  Bonham may have been drawn to "Fresh Garbage" because of the Latino percussion sounds. It's Bonham, I say.  Maybe Jimmy will remember better than Jonesy. I agree, Strider, there is no need to pull a Jake Holmes trip r.e. "Fresh Garbage", as it doesn't have much to do with "Taurus" despite both being on Side One of Spirit's debut album.  Maybe I am being naive.

Alright, interesting note:  the author of "Fresh Garbage" is Jay Ferguson, Spirit's lead singer, also in charge of percussive flourishes like the Latin drums we hear in "Fresh Garbage."  In fact, Ferguson wrote most of Spirit's first album. "Taurus" is the only song with Randy Wolfe's name on it, and Mark Andes the bass player contributes on two of the 11 tracks. LINK album notes here.  So where oh where is Ferguson in all this?  Why have we not heard from him?   He's alive and well, scoring the music for "NCIS: Los Angeles", according to wikipedia.   Like Jimmy, he's friends with Joe Walsh or was at one point.  I'd be very interested to hear what the singer who wrote 90% of Spirit's debut album has to say about this lawsuit.  

[Patrick Aloyysiuus]

7 minutes ago, Mercurious said:

Yes, Jimmy is with Jones hewing closer to the riff, and we hear Bonham shuffle a bit into the hippie-Latino cha-cha-cha that Spirit begins with.  Spirit's song departs from the riff into the chorus and then swings into a Coltrane-type middle section.  It's very latino jazz rock fusion. They abandon a great riff.  Zeppelin agrees with none of that, and sticks to the riff, piecing out an improv over that great bass line.  It doesn't sound like Jimmy has much familiarity with Spirit's song.  I am entirely biased, of course, and I do not want to believe that Jones is lying when he says he doesn't remember who brought it in.  Based on who's doing what (Plant again doesn't reference the Spirit lyric) it's either Jones or Page, possibly Bonham.  I'm leaning toward the rhythm section because it doesn't sound to me that Jimmy and Robert have much familiarity with how Spirit handles the riff, or are purposefully avoiding it because they don't like how Spirit marooned such a cool riff.  Bonham may have been drawn to "Fresh Garbage" because of the Latino percussion sounds. It's Bonham, I say.  Maybe Jimmy will remember better than Jonesy. I agree, Strider, there is no need to pull a Jake Holmes trip r.e. "Fresh Garbage", as it doesn't have much to do with "Taurus" despite both being on Side One of Spirit's debut album.  Maybe I am being naive.

Alright, interesting note:  the author of "Fresh Garbage" is Jay Ferguson, Spirit's lead singer, also in charge of percussive flourishes like the Latin drums we hear in "Fresh Garbage."  In fact, Ferguson wrote most of Spirit's first album. "Taurus" is the only song with Randy Wolfe's name on it, and Mark Andes the bass player contributes on two of the 11 tracks. LINK album notes here.  So where oh where is Ferguson in all this?  Why have we not heard from him?   He's alive and well, scoring the music for "NCIS: Los Angeles", according to wikipedia.   Like Jimmy, he's friends with Joe Walsh or was at one point.  I'd be very interested to hear what the singer who wrote 90% of Spirit's debut album has to say about this lawsuit.  

jay testified 1 st n 2nd days ,was vague as to when and where things happened ,taurus wasnt played live ever 

[DogsoverLava]

9 hours ago, Strider said:

I knew my post would be unpopular. Frankly, the only opinion of value at the moment is the jury's...and the judge's....

...

But I seem to be the only one here who thinks it is a bad idea to run away from the idea that Led Zeppelin knew of Spirit before writing "Stairway to Heaven". I believe it should not matter. Do you see the Rolling Stones claiming ignorance of Chuck Berry, even though half their songs are based on his riffs?

There is no connection between Jimmy and Jones admitting they heard "Fresh Garbage" and their writing "Stairway to Heaven". One does not have anything to do with the other. With all the interviews Jimmy has given in the past where he mentions Spirit, a halfway decent lawyer would be able to take their current testimony and twist it enough to cause doubt in the jury's mind. Jones never went to a rock concert? Ok...I suppose that is feasible. But any non-fanboy could see how that might seem hard to believe. 

Instead of acting afraid of any mention of Spirit, they should confront it head-on, secure in the knowledge that "Stairway to Heaven"'s greatness has nothing to do with "Taurus". Randy California does not own those notes, as Led Zeppelin has adequately proven by all the prior music samples exhibited. By going out of their way to disavow any knowledge of Spirit's existence, when previous interviews and performances suggest at least some awareness, it may give the jury the impression that Jimmy and Jones were not forthcoming in their testimony.

....

Unless of course it's true -- "running away" isn't running away if you are not running away.... I'm fully willing to believe the testimony and the facts as they are being established.  If Jones says "no", and because I know how Jams work, I'm fully willing to believe it. And it is also very very common that musicians get totally isolated and hear little or listen to little other music. Eddie Van Halen is famous for this -- he's hardly listened to anyone since the mid eighties and is virtually ignorant on contemporary musicians and guitar players.

I get that you have your skepticism -- you weigh the facts and hold a belief -- your belief here is that you have doubts about their truthfulness.  You base that belief off of premises -- one of your premises was a certain disbelief that something played in a Jam that was similar to Fresh Garbage could happen without JPJ having heard that song before.  I attacked (or attempted to explain) your premise - telling you how possible and actually how often that kind of thing can happen -- and that the premise therefore should be rejected from your argument that supports your belief that the Zep boys are being untruthful.... because it doesn't stand up -- it's not a compelling a argument - it doesn't stand up and is a very weak premise.

That doesn't mean the Zep boys are NOT Lying.... JPJ might be --- but in order to hold a valid belief there or conclude as such you have to have an argument with premises that support it.  The argument that Fresh Garbage's similarity to a Jam proves prior knowledge because you can't wrap your head around the idea that these kinds of similarities happen all the time is just wrong - factually wrong - experientially wrong.....

Someone else mentioned a spy movie sounding bassline ---- and suggested that it could be possible that Fresh Garbage and the Zep Jam were inspired by the same source ergo have similar roots but are not a product of each other.  I'll suggest that that argument is most likely key to understanding this whole case.

Small Example: You and I are sitting at a pub for drinks with friends -- talking about having a pot-luck BBQ. In the midst of the discussion the pub owner's wife pulls a fresh apple cobbler out of the oven that carries itself into the pub.  Later on we are both at home - and we both have been told that each of us must bring a dessert to the BBQ ----- and while we are each sitting in our own kitchens miles apart from each other wondering what to cook - we both think "apple pie".... and the next day at the BBQ we both show up with apple pies.  Now neither of us copied the other (though one of us might think the other did - especially since one pie looks nicer and is preferred by the group).  And neither of us is aware or associates the genesis of our idea to bake pies to our experience smelling the cobbler in the pub.  We end up having a great time at the BBQ anyway because pie is awesome and there's a shit ton of it for everyone!

Musical ideas and expressions are just like the idea to bake a pie.  You might argue that in this case we are talking about the first pie --- that it's the pie itself which is a unique creative expression of a baked apple dessert.  And I say that the idea to encrust apples in pastry could spontaneously happen simultaneously as well.  It's not hard to conceive - you just have to understand the nature of creativity and the nature of ideas ---- in "words" this relates to theories and discussions of Mikhail Bakhtin idea of the dialogic.  That every discussion is related to the history of every other discussion (a gross simplification).  Music is the same way -- it's all inter-related.

So I guess to reiterate - it comes back to this Strider --- What do YOU BELIEVE? And what are the premises that support that belief?  Because right now your premises don't validly support your doubts ---- so where do your doubts come from? If it's just  something that you "feel" that give you cause to doubt then I'd argue you need to reject that way of thinking and believing. There is an old narrative that's being dismantled in this case (the prior exposure one that has dominated the historical discussion of this issue between Zep and Sprit).  As established facts get presented to counter the old narrative that said Jimmy used to watch Spirit play Taurus from the side stage night after night, we realize two things -- that narratives are stories - and beliefs based on stories are dangerous because a good story just "feels true" but that doesn't make it "True".

Anyway -- nothing personal here -- but I just see you adding to the narrative with statements of belief that suggest facts that are themselves already disproved or that are unsupported by the evidence as it gets established.

[Balthazor]

22 minutes ago, Patrick Aloyysiuus said:

jay testified 1 st n 2nd days ,was vague as to when and where things happened ,taurus wasnt played live ever 

Just to clarify, are you saying that Spirit's drummer testified that Taurus wasn't ever played live? If that is the case, then it's odd that it was never reported in any of these stories because that would be a big revelation.

And that's awesome about meeting Plant in the bathroom. That's a story I'd tell to everyone I know or ever meet. Hey, did I ever tell you about the time I pissed with Robert Plant? Great stuff.

[Mercurious]

11 hours ago, Strider said:

There is no connection between Jimmy and Jones admitting they heard "Fresh Garbage" and their writing "Stairway to Heaven". One does not have anything to do with the other. With all the interviews Jimmy has given in the past where he mentions Spirit, a halfway decent lawyer would be able to take their current testimony and twist it enough to cause doubt in the jury's mind. 

"Fresh Garbage" and "Taurus" are both on Side 1 of the eponymous Spirit debut album.  "Fresh Garbage" is track one; "Taurus" is track #4.  I can believe Jimmy never heard "Taurus" or did and just doesn't remember it -- but imagine the look on his face as he's standing there with his son-in-law, looking at the label as he moves toward the turntable; it had to be something along the lines of "aww shit".    I can believe 100%, however, that whomever in Led Zeppelin knew "Fresh Garbage" and introduced it to the rest of the band, may have only listened to the one track, and then maybe only as far as the middle section where Spirit goes into the Coltrane-esque thing.  I can see lifting the needle there and putting it back to the beginning, doing that a few times, getting the bass line down and then reaching for the James Brown record. Led Zep is only interested in the bass line, nothing more on the track.  

But imagine explaining that to the jury, then having to sit there and wait for their verdict, knowing in your gut that they probably didn't buy it.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Mercurious
tense, sentence structure

[Patrick Aloyysiuus]

on tuesday plant will testify then case to jury by noon,its strange to see so many reporters cover this , only 3 fans got in ,

20 years ago mainstream media couldnt care less about zepppelin

Edited June 19, 2016 by Patrick Aloyysiuus

[Kiron Kid]

No, I didn't piss with Robert, but I did spend some time with the lads, backstage after a gig at the L.A. Forum. Jimmy was cool. We talked briefly of guitars, etc. 

[Mercurious]

54 minutes ago, Patrick Aloyysiuus said:

jay testified 1 st n 2nd days ,was vague as to when and where things happened ,taurus wasnt played live ever 

Cool.  I hadn't seen his name brought up to this point.  It sounds like he didn't help the plaintiffs very much.  Found a good clean link without all the flash crap on Rolling Stone's webpages at Courthouse News Service - very objective writing and tone as well.  http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/06/15/led-zeppelin-copyright-trial-hinges-on-access.htm

[Laura Zephead]

20 hours ago, TheGreatOne said:

There has not been any sightings of Page & Plant wandering around LA ? Or seen eating at a restaurant ?   It's understandable they best to be out of the spotlight or away from press till court is over.

Wondering what they doing ?  Jamming out together in the hotel room; Plant has a harmonica and Page an acoustic jamming and eating Chinese takeout.

Well it is a nice fantasy but I seriously doubt they even see each other outside the courtroom. In a perfect Zepfan world, them being together again like this fighting for their rights to one of the biggest songs in Rock history, rekindles the flame of years gone by and they finally say "Lets do it!"..

 

Sigh.... if only.

[ScarletMacaw]

5 hours ago, Patrick Aloyysiuus said:

ive been in court all the day s so far ,jury contains no caucasians 3 or 4 hispanics with limited english skills (they even told judge this but judge put them on case anyway),one black lady mid 30s ,probably all she knows is puffy and page did a rap version of kashmir ,the rest were asians (vietnamese and koreans ages 20s to 50s/),so who knows what this group of jurors will decide 

i met robert plant at the urinal on day 2 of trial ,not how dreamed  to meet him but ill take it ,i asked him as we peed together ,"what did prince charles say when he gave you that award a few years back ?? He told me he loved led zeppelin but his mum forbid him to listen to them......yeh right charles ,e both laughed and i told robert good luck

It must have been hard for them to find a jury that was not familiar with Led Zeppelin.

As for your urinal story...I guess it's possible but Black Sabbath has played for the Queen so unlikely she forbade them from listening to Zeppelin.

[IpMan]

10 minutes ago, ScarletMacaw said:

It must have been hard for them to find a jury that was not familiar with Led Zeppelin.

As for your urinal story...I guess it's possible but Black Sabbath has played for the Queen so unlikely she forbade them from listening to Zeppelin.

Of course the queen loves Sabbath, according to David Icke she is a reptilian overlord and EVERYONE knows reptilian overlords love Sabbath. Zeppelin, meh, they are more of an acquired taste among the lizard rulers.

[The Rover]

Sorry if this link has already been posted:

http://trueviralnews.com/?tag=jimmy-page

Various News stories about the testimony given by Page, Plant & Jones